The Zygon Inversion (3508 / 908)

[P-90_177]

That ending was very ominous with the "one month" line.... Dum de dum, ominous music for Clara I think..

Doctor's speech was good, and BAFTA material I think.

Didn't the Doctor kill off a whole race in The Macra Terror? He had no qualms about that... Why so different with the Zygons?

Oh and Zygella..

I picture a cameo with Nigella Lawson playing Zygella. The Zygon cooking show.

He's killed off entire races a few times. But that's the point. More often than not the Doctor has to choose one race over another to save one, but he always hates that. The opportunity to make peace comes around really rarely for him, but he knows at the end of the day that an alien race isn't all bad (excepts for Daleks, Cybermen and the like). There are warmongers, sure, but there are a lot who want peace too.So when he gets that opportunity such as with the Zygons, or Silurians then he will take it. That why he designed the idea of the Osgood box. It's his way of insuring the peace is kept.

[Coco Pops]

He's killed off entire races a few times. But that's the point. More often than not the Doctor has to choose one race over another to save one, but he always hates that. The opportunity to make peace comes around really rarely for him, but he knows at the end of the day that an alien race isn't all bad (excepts for Daleks, Cybermen and the like). There are warmongers, sure, but there are a lot who want peace too.So when he gets that opportunity such as with the Zygons, or Silurians then he will take it. That why he designed the idea of the Osgood box. It's his way of insuring the peace is kept.

I guess, but what's to stop this happening again, and again, and again?

The Doctor may not be around the next time.

[Sealurk]

I too was a little bothered by the total lack of concern for everybody else on the plane. I seem to remember at least one UNIT soldier and of course the crew (and a zygon). Plus, and I realise this is a fairly minor niggle since we're not really dealing with a grounded and realistic depiction of the military or their hardware... but wouldn't a military VIP transport used to carry the President of the World in times of extreme emergency have countermeasures? Like, I dunno, flares, chaff, decoys, radar and IR jammers and such. The VC-25 (the plane everybody calls Air Force One) almost certainly does, and that merely carries the President of the United States!

"Don't look at my browser history." I imagine Eleven would have some choice words for Twelve on this subject.

Osgood talking about how she would start to conquer the world, i.e. simply killing the Doctor without letting him talk. Many have wondered why the Doctor's adversaries don't simply kill him on the spot, and we still don't have an explanation why but it was fun seeing it addressed in universe.

Bonnie destroying the laptop - why was my first thought "that was a totally unnecessary waste of a perfectly good computer, both in-universe and in reality"?

"I'm old enough to be your messiah!"

Oh... this could be my overactive mind seeing patterns where there aren't (hey, it's why the Eighth Doctor loves us) but this exchange raised an eyebrow on second viewing: "You're you." "I'm me." "But human or zygon?" "I'm me." Of course, we've already seen Ashildr in Clara's time, but it could be a nod.

Capaldi's American accent was grating, but as hammy as it was I did like Twelve's big impassioned speech at the end. Nice callback to Day of the Doctor.

I do wonder if this episode is basically the end of the zygons as a threat - from now on and barring individuals or small groups will they be more or less friendly aliens, like the Ood?

Definitely enjoyed this episode far, far more than part one. It has its problems, yes, but overall I found it entertaining and not quite as nonsensical as the first part.

[Matt G]

1. One of Clara's better eps this season...but her influence over Bonnie was slightly flukey.

2. One hell of a performance from Capaldi...not exactly a pacifist myself but yeah...points very much noted Doctor.

3. Last moment with the Osgoods was a bit cheesy.

Solid ep, and in it's own way very powerful...but slightly anti-climatic after last week.

[Coco Pops]

I liked parts of the 2nd episode. The big speech in the black archive was I think award worthy and I half expected someone to give him a BAFTA or Oscar after that speech LOL. It was great.

Did you notice no music, no sound just Capaldi delivering those lines? It was terrific.

[Blencathra]

I too was a little bothered by the total lack of concern for everybody else on the plane. I seem to remember at least one UNIT soldier and of course the crew (and a zygon). ...

The more I think about this the more and more angry I am getting.

In DoctorWhoLand a terrorist can kill hundreds of people, force others to commit suicide and shoot a plane out of the sky, and what happens to them? A trial and then prison? No. They say "sorry I won't do it again" and they get let off. Then they can go live happily ever after with Osgood and eat ice cream.

It's obscene.

[cosmichobo]

There is a LOT lacking, in terms of what the rebels have done... How many humans have they killed... and... who would ever know whether there is in fact any humans left after X period of time if they just keep sneaking people away and replacing them... Very Body Snatcherish...

And, when the Doctor says that he forgives Zyclara... The (bad?) human in me just found it so hard to accept... much as I could never, and largely still can't reconcile my father forgiving the man who killed my grandparents in a car crash 18 years ago... I can understand, I can accept it was an "accident", it was careless, but without intent... but his actions still killed them... And here, we're not talking accidents... we're talking bazooka shooting murder...

BUT, if no one forgives... then the cycle continues... an eye for an eye is never the way...

[Blencathra]

Some things can never be forgiven.

Though obviously Peter Harness doesn't think so. According to him, if you are a member of IS or if you shot down MH17 with a BUK missile, you can go merrily on your way with a full pardon and a tub of mint choc chip.

[Coco Pops]

I am agreeing with Blen..

[Flyboy]

Some things can never be forgiven.

Though obviously Peter Harness doesn't think so. According to him, if you are a member of IS or if you shot down MH17 with a BUK missile, you can go merrily on your way with a full pardon and a tub of mint choc chip.

Unfortunately, it's a common theme in reality. The most notable examples are the 'Troubles' in Ireland and the Rwandan genocide. I don't like it myself, it goes against all of my principles for justice and what I feel to be 'right' - but on occasion mass forgiveness occurs because it's the only way to move forward from civil war, as the only alternative is continued violence.

[Coco Pops]

Unfortunately, it's a common theme in reality. The most notable examples are the 'Troubles' in Ireland and the Rwandan genocide. I don't like it myself, it goes against all of my principles for justice and what I feel to be 'right' - but on occasion mass forgiveness occurs because it's the only way to move forward from civil war, as the only alternative is continued violence.

Or you hunt down each and every perpetrator and end them.

[P-90_177]

Unfortunately, it's a common theme in reality. The most notable examples are the 'Troubles' in Ireland and the Rwandan genocide. I don't like it myself, it goes against all of my principles for justice and what I feel to be 'right' - but on occasion mass forgiveness occurs because it's the only way to move forward from civil war, as the only alternative is continued violence.

Not to mention War in general. Like the Doctor said, when the war is over you sit down and you make peace.

Ultimately, Bonnie wasn't evil. Her actions in the end proved that. What she wanted is an escape from what she felt was oppression which in all fairness is true. The result of the treaty forces Zygons to live in human form. It's a poor example from a historical perspective, but imagine what the feeling would be at the end of the Slave trade if people said to former slaves "Yes you can live amongst us, but you have to paint your faces white".

Ultimately we may always feel like making people who cause suffering to pay a price, whether that be in their death or going to prison, but then in that case you have to accept that normally such people are fighting because they perceive, rightly or wrongly, some form of persecution or threat to themselves, and sometimes, more often than we would prefer, they aren't entirely wrong. Consider the fact that the growth of IS as a greater international threat has occurred largely in part of Western intervention in the area over the last decade. Now somewhere along the way a lot of religious dogma gets mingled in with that, but that's ISIS. Within the context of the episode and the Zygons, there wasn't that sort of religious aspect to consider but the bare bones of why people fight for a cause.

[Coco Pops]

Well golly gee the smart thing might have been to let the Zygons live in their natural form. Might have not caused so many problems. Or at the very least the Doctor could have relocated them. That wasn't out of his powers.

[Coco Pops]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-tragedy.html

Some people were not happy with the episode.

[cosmichobo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-tragedy.html

Some people were not happy with the episode.

It did occur to me that we'd just seen a plane blown up by terrorists... and of course, last year as well... But - when you take into account what the episode says about war...

Maybe if my family had been involved in those events I'd be more upset, but for me, it wasn't insensitive... It borrows heavily on real life, even before real life events occurred.