Discussion about hot topics trending today

[SoulReaver]

See the light now?

as I said immigration's still a detail one of those topics I was never really interested in

that said, the benefits of it are (or should be) obvious even to americans: jobs that americans won't do?

[Gatefan1976]

as I said immigration's still a detail one of those topics I was never really interested in

that said, the benefits of it are (or should be) obvious even to americans: jobs that americans won't do?

But they will, or at least they will always say they will.

[Annoyed]

I see you still like generalizations and stereotypes

Most generalizations and stereotypes have their origin in truth.

[jelgate]

That is another generalization. I think you have an addiction

[Annoyed]

But they will, or at least they will always say they will.

How many times has Tood, somtimes backed by yourself said that the law of supply and demand rules?
That rule applies in the labor market as well, but you don't seem to get that.
You offer a good salary and benefits for a fruit picking job and you're gonna need more fruit to pick.
Unless of course you can pay illegals pennies on the dollar for labor to subsidize your labor costs. Then you can keep more $ in your own piocket.

[Gatefan1976]

That is another generalization. I think you have an addiction

one more strike we can lock him up!!

[Annoyed]

one more strike we can lock him up!!

You have no chains strong enough. Your metallurgical science is nowhere near that advanced.

[Gatefan1976]

You have no chains strong enough. Your metallurgical science is nowhere near that advanced.

Who needs metal, the silk of your own web of lies will do the job.

[jelgate]

I say we drop in a desert in Mexico

[Annoyed]

Bah, I have good music to listen to. Enough noise for tonigbt.

[Womble]

How many times has Tood, somtimes backed by yourself said that the law of supply and demand rules?
That rule applies in the labor market as well, but you don't seem to get that.
You offer a good salary and benefits for a fruit picking job and you're gonna need more fruit to pick.
Unless of course you can pay illegals pennies on the dollar for labor to subsidize your labor costs. Then you can keep more $ in your own piocket.

That is actually not true and supply/demand balance is far more complex than that.

What dictates the salaries for fruit picking is, ultimately, the demand for fruit itself. Raise the wages and you're raising operational costs and ultimately of the end product. Then the consumer demand falls, as fewer people can afford to buy anything with fruit in it. Then either the wages go back down to sustainable, or farmers go out of business. The whole thing reaches balance either when enough farmers have gone out of business to create sufficient fruit scarcity on the market to justify the new price, or the government begins paying another group of farmers for not growing another crop, as is your land's current custom.

And in the meanwhile, your inadequate healthcare battles a mysterious resurgence of scurvy.

[Annoyed]

That is actually not true and supply/demand balance is far more complex than that.

What dictates the salaries for fruit picking is, ultimately, the demand for fruit itself. Raise the wages and you're raising operational costs and ultimately of the end product. Then the consumer demand falls, as fewer people can afford to buy anything with fruit in it. Then either the wages go back down to sustainable, or farmers go out of business. The whole thing reaches balance either when enough farmers have gone out of business to create sufficient fruit scarcity on the market to justify the new price, or the government begins paying another group of farmers for not growing another crop, as is your land's current custom.

And in the meanwhile, your inadequate healthcare battles a mysterious resurgence of scurvy.

That's part of it. As with any product, manufacturers will charge whatever they can get for their products. If there is a high demand for fruit, they will raise prices, if demand falls off, they will lower them.
But that same logic applies to the labor market. Look at our general economy over the past 20+ years or so. Wages have been flat, because there have been more workers looking for jobs than there have been jobs. As of late, however, there are more manufacturing jobs being created, so employers are having to raise wages to fill those jobs. More demand for the product, (labor) the price of the product goes up.

But if the employer can find workers such as illegals that will work cheaper, the manufacturer can cut his costs WITHOUT passing those lower costs to the consumer. Or if there are suddenly more workers applying for those jobs, the manufacturer doesn't have to offer more $.
Supply and demand affects the labor market just as much as the grocery store shelf.

But in cases as you describe, when paying full wages will raise the cost of the product so that there is less demand or maybe demand falls off altogether, maybe that product is simply not sustainable?
Using illegal immigrants for labor simply subsidizes an artificially low price by putting it on the backs of those workers.

If I'm not in a mood to cook, I might stop on the way home and buy 2 whoppers/big macs or whatever for 5-6 bucks. If the price of those sandwiches goes to 5 bucks each, the convenience will no longer be worth it to me, so as far as I'm concerned, they are priced out of the market. If BurgerDonalds starts using illegal labor to bring the price back down, again, they would be artificially sustaining that low price on the backs of those workers, and at the same time undercuts the value of US workers.

[aretood2]

That's part of it. As with any product, manufacturers will charge whatever they can get for their products. If there is a high demand for fruit, they will raise prices, if demand falls off, they will lower them.
But that same logic applies to the labor market. Look at our general economy over the past 20+ years or so. Wages have been flat, because there have been more workers looking for jobs than there have been jobs. As of late, however, there are more manufacturing jobs being created, so employers are having to raise wages to fill those jobs. More demand for the product, (labor) the price of the product goes up.

You are ignoring the elephant in the room here. Mainly that you want government to dictate economics to benefit some sort of nationalist/fantastical ideology on how the economy should work versus how the real world actually works. Karl Marx would be proud of you.

There's also the mastodon in the room, the fact that where will we get our fruits from? Or vegetables? Prices won't go down thanks to tariffs and your idiotic desire for "less imports above all reason".

But if the employer can find workers such as illegals that will work cheaper, the manufacturer can cut his costs WITHOUT passing those lower costs to the consumer. Or if there are suddenly more workers applying for those jobs, the manufacturer doesn't have to offer more $.
Supply and demand affects the labor market just as much as the grocery store shelf.

First of all, saying that all field workers are illegal is racist. There I said it, the "r" word. Naturalized citizens and legal residents compose a larger portion of the field labor force. So that renders your argument moot. Unless of course you really are being racist/xenophobic and simply can't stand seeing brown people/foreigners working in the US. So what's your motivation here?

But in cases as you describe, when paying full wages will raise the cost of the product so that there is less demand or maybe demand falls off altogether, maybe that product is simply not sustainable?
Using illegal immigrants for labor simply subsidizes an artificially low price by putting it on the backs of those workers.

Food not being sustainable? Do you even pay attention to what you are posting? So what do you propose? That we all starve?

If I'm not in a mood to cook, I might stop on the way home and buy 2 whoppers/big macs or whatever for 5-6 bucks. If the price of those sandwiches goes to 5 bucks each, the convenience will no longer be worth it to me, so as far as I'm concerned, they are priced out of the market. If BurgerDonalds starts using illegal labor to bring the price back down, again, they would be artificially sustaining that low price on the backs of those workers, and at the same time undercuts the value of US workers.

Except in your perfect world there'd be no whoppers since food is not sustainable...

[Annoyed]

You are ignoring the elephant in the room here. Mainly that you want government to dictate economics to benefit some sort of nationalist/fantastical ideology on how the economy should work versus how the real world actually works. Karl Marx would be proud of you.

You are correct. You may have noticed that I'm somewhat opposed to overly generous welfare programs and strongly favor people providing for themselves.
But as part of that, I have no problem wanting protectionism so that our economy can provide the jobs people need to support themselves, which is a big problem when corporations can outsource labor and import workers to undercut the labor market.

There's also the mastodon in the room, the fact that where will we get our fruits from? Or vegetables? Prices won't go down thanks to tariffs and your idiotic desire for "less imports above all reason".

Perhaps incomes will go up so that people can afford the higher fruit prices?

First of all, saying that all field workers are illegal is racist. There I said it, the "r" word. Naturalized citizens and legal residents compose a larger portion of the field labor force. So that renders your argument moot. Unless of course you really are being racist/xenophobic and simply can't stand seeing brown people/foreigners working in the US. So what's your motivation here?

It's not just field laborers, it's all sorts of labor. How many programmers is Microsoft bringing in legally so that they can pay lower wage rates?
If you recall, Disney has been firing their domestic workers in order to import labor, but these workers are being told to train their replacements before they are replaced by them.

It's not a racial thing. I don't care where they are importing workers from, I care that they are deliberately replacing US workers with them at lower wages at all.

Food not being sustainable? Do you even pay attention to what you are posting? So what do you propose? That we all starve?

You don't think there will be changes, such as higher wages that allow people to purchase food? But there will also be a lot of corporate belt tightening. Corporations do not pass the all of the savings they achieve by outsourcing/etc to the consumer. A very large part of it ends up in corporate.

Except in your perfect world there'd be no whoppers since food is not sustainable...

See above.

[Womble]

That's part of it. As with any product, manufacturers will charge whatever they can get for their products. If there is a high demand for fruit, they will raise prices, if demand falls off, they will lower them.

They can't lower them below operational costs though. Ultimately, operational costs is what determines the price floor. Raise it, and you raise the price.

But that same logic applies to the labor market. Look at our general economy over the past 20+ years or so. Wages have been flat, because there have been more workers looking for jobs than there have been jobs. As of late, however, there are more manufacturing jobs being created, so employers are having to raise wages to fill those jobs. More demand for the product, (labor) the price of the product goes up.

But if the employer can find workers such as illegals that will work cheaper, the manufacturer can cut his costs WITHOUT passing those lower costs to the consumer. Or if there are suddenly more workers applying for those jobs, the manufacturer doesn't have to offer more $.
Supply and demand affects the labor market just as much as the grocery store shelf.

That is true and it's part of my point. We're talking about agriculture here, not iPhones. Raising prices for food cuts into everyone's income and annihilates whatever higher wages those workers are paid. Everybody's gotta eat.

But in cases as you describe, when paying full wages will raise the cost of the product so that there is less demand or maybe demand falls off altogether, maybe that product is simply not sustainable?

But that's the thing, isn't it? You don't want to outsource your agriculture to countries where labor costs make it sustainable, you don't want operational costs brought down by employing foreigners. You want to artificially sustain the unsustainable for the sake of keeping those jobs American. And you don't want price controls, do you? So there is only one end result possible.

How much of your population are you willing to render unable to purchase basic foods?

Using illegal immigrants for labor simply subsidizes an artificially low price by putting it on the backs of those workers.

Your country subsidizes farmers for not growing their crops, to the tune of $100 billion. Doesn't it make much more sense to subsidize a low price on food than to subsidize non-production?

If I'm not in a mood to cook, I might stop on the way home and buy 2 whoppers/big macs or whatever for 5-6 bucks. If the price of those sandwiches goes to 5 bucks each, the convenience will no longer be worth it to me, so as far as I'm concerned, they are priced out of the market. If BurgerDonalds starts using illegal labor to bring the price back down, again, they would be artificially sustaining that low price on the backs of those workers, and at the same time undercuts the value of US workers.

While we are on the subject, could you remind me your stand on food quality regulation? Because employing illegals is not nearly the worst way that American food industry artificially lowers prices. Most of your food is a fraud, your Parmesan cheese contains wood pulp, your restaurants sell escolar as tuna and tilapia as red snapper, your olive oil is mixed with canola oil (the actual on-the-books standard to qualify as "olive oil" it needs to contain 51% olive oil). Don't get me started on the ground meat that goes into those big macs you pick up on your way home. What's your stand on that and why is it a lesser issue than illegal immigrants growing your food?