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  1. #61
    General Blencathra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Flyattractor View Post
    And wow. Pretty strong opinion on the military in this thread. If you are in the military, your pretty much denigrated to 2nd class citizen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboy View Post
    Trust me, it hasn't gone unnoticed.
    Is that supposed to be some sort of personal dig? Because I think you will find we were discussing the Doctor's opinion, not our own personal ideology.

  2. #62
    Colonel Flyboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blencathra View Post
    Is that supposed to be some sort of personal dig? Because I think you will find we were discussing the Doctor's opinion, not our own personal ideology.
    Blen, never I know you were. There was one particular comment from someone else that got under my skin a little. But it wasn't you.

    Anyway, I apologise for the comment nevertheless, irritable mood - slightly stressed. Need some R&R.
    Last edited by Flyboy; September 3rd, 2014 at 02:36 PM.


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  3. #63
    General Blencathra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboy View Post
    Blen, never I know you were. There was one particular comment from someone else that got under my skin a little. But it wasn't you.

    Anyway, I apologise for the comment nevertheless, irritable mood - slightly stressed. Need some R&R.
    No worries. I had a bad day as well.

    I wanted to make it absolutely clear that I was trying to get inside the Doctor's head and determine what his motive might be for not taking Journey with him. I was not having a go at the military in any way.
    Last edited by Blencathra; September 4th, 2014 at 12:35 AM.

  4. #64
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenee View Post
    Sure, he IS an alien and as such, he is bound to have other moral standards. BUT, he acts very human, and the humans are his favourite race [oh, I just discovered, that race (biol.) and race as in motor race, is exectly the same, how weird].
    He act's "human" because compassion and care are universal concepts, we just happen to think we created them.
    Sure, it's for teh viewers to connect with the character, but nevertheless, his morals in many ways are prety close to human moral, and by comparing him to what little I've seen from the timelords, he'd probbably made rather a good human than a good timelord.
    Sure, but again, giving a care is not a uniquely human attribute.
    IS the Doctor a good "man"??
    Of course he is, he has saved our little dustball for millennia, looking over us as a silent observer and interfering when he felt he must, especially when other races wanted to interfere with us.

    As for "good and evil" I'm not sure, if evil is the right opposite. I thought the question is, if he is good or bad, which is a slightly different thing. Is he evil? Certainly not, because he's not by purpose.
    So your point of difference is intent??

    Is he bad, because he keeps failing in his struggle to be good? Well, I guess, we could debate about that for ages. I still won't say, he is a soldier, but I can't deny he is fighting somekind of war.
    He is no soldier, at worst he is a General, with no desire to command his potential troops.


    No I haven't (though beeing from a beer-drinking country myself, even if I don't drink beer, I can imagine ) But, well they shouldn't drik beer while watching their favourite TV-show, than
    Who is on (first run) at 4:30am on a Sunday morning here dude, You are either still up, or waking up. I watch it at around 7am because my kids make me be awake, so I may as well watch some Who
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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Well I hope I didn't say anything bad in this thread......

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    He act's "human" because compassion and care are universal concepts, we just happen to think we created them.
    Well, are they? so fare I haven't heard from any alien species, which wasn't made up by some human writeres So I don't know. But anyway I was'nt reffering only to comapssion and care but human behavior in general. And besides, I don't beleve humans to be the best exemples for humanity/human values such as compassion and care, or, the other way round. I'm not always sure if humanity is a good fing after all, in fact I'm very doubtfull of that.

    Sure, but again, giving a care is not a uniquely human attribute.
    IS the Doctor a good "man"??
    Of course he is, he has saved our little dustball for millennia, looking over us as a silent observer and interfering when he felt he must, especially when other races wanted to interfere with us.
    Sure from that -our - perspective he is. But at what cost had he saved the erth other and over again? Not ally by allowing a few humans to day, but rather often by killing thousends of other aliens. Yes, you can say, they invadet the planet. But honestly: what do you think would humans do, if they where able to reach other planets? Whould they be any different?
    To be fair, the doctor did save the ood from the humans and, he usualy tries to helb the week. So I quess he is rather a good man. But what makes him good, is tring to defend the right kind of group, that he is struggeling to do the right kind of think. But his actions are not bejond questioning, and they aren't shown as if they were (maybe that is, what makes him more human than anything else?). That's what I like about this show, as I mointed out before.

    Or where you referring to "man" as human. Then you you're right of course. I was referring to man as one man = person

    So your point of difference is intent??
    Yeah, I guess it is. Maybe thats a little symplified. But to me bad and evil are not exacly the same. Could be a language/translating-thing though
    He is no soldier, at worst he is a General, with no desire to command his potential troops.



    Who is on (first run) at 4:30am on a Sunday morning here dude, You are either still up, or waking up. I watch it at around 7am because my kids make me be awake, so I may as well watch some Who
    That's there left to say?

    Blen, never I know you were. There was one particular comment from someone else that got under my skin a little. But it wasn't you.

    Anyway, I apologise for the comment nevertheless, irritable mood - slightly stressed. Need some R&R.
    Might have been me? I remember we had a discussion an military somewhere else on this page. I didn't mean to a offend someone personally. And if I did, I aploogize for that. But as it is, I rather share the doctors opinion on soldiers and military. I don't think, that soldiers are generally bad people and I'me sure a lot of them are rather nice. But I just personaly can't imagine, why people voluntiere to shout people, if they are told to. I just wish it wherent necessary that there is such a thing as military. Do you get my point?
    Nobody asked me, if I wanted to live. So don't anyone tell me how I shoul lead my life.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenee View Post
    But as it is, I rather share the doctors opinion on soldiers and military. I don't think, that soldiers are generally bad people and I'me sure a lot of them are rather nice. But I just personaly can't imagine, why people voluntiere to shout people, if they are told to. I just wish it wherent necessary that there is such a thing as military. Do you get my point?
    I think this post is naive to reality at best, and in actuality quite offensive.
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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Actually I think it would make for an awesome story if the Doctor had to save an alien civilization from humans..... The reverse of say that story with the Sycorax and only it's not them invading but humans...... That might be fun to see the shoe on the other foot and humans as the aggressors...

  9. #69
    Lieutenant Colonel rushy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Pops View Post
    Actually I think it would make for an awesome story if the Doctor had to save an alien civilization from humans..... The reverse of say that story with the Sycorax and only it's not them invading but humans...... That might be fun to see the shoe on the other foot and humans as the aggressors...
    Well, there's Planet Of The Ood, but yeah, considering how far humanity advances(to the end of the universe!), it's quite surprising there hasn't been any evil groups or tyrants showing up.

    P.S. I don't think this Doctor's gonna have much love for UNIT. Sorry, Flyboy.
    "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care... or why it should be necessary to prove it at all."

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spimman View Post
    I think this post is naive to reality at best, and in actuality quite offensive.
    I know, that it is naive. And I was trying to make clear that I do. But I won't denay, that I whish it wasn't. I just don't like the fact, that we - I - are/m part of a race, wich probably never stop fighting each other, and therefore will always need soldiers. Yes, I do know, we need them. And I am sure most of them mean rather to protect, than to harm others.
    But one can have ideals, even if they are utopic, can't he/she?

    Oh, and bay the way. I believe, that DW, especialy this episode reflects this dilemma very well: You can't win a war/ fight an army without becoming/creating a soldier your self.
    Nobody asked me, if I wanted to live. So don't anyone tell me how I shoul lead my life.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by rushy View Post
    Well, there's Planet Of The Ood, but yeah, considering how far humanity advances(to the end of the universe!), it's quite surprising there hasn't been any evil groups or tyrants showing up.
    Humanity has pretty much become the cockroaches of the universe in Dr. Who.

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  12. #72
    Lieutenant Colonel rushy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    It'd be great if the Doctor discovered that they became a Time Lord-like race in the future(Time Agency, anyone?) and has to deal with authority looking over his shoulder(kind of like his original relationship with the Brigadier) once more.

    And I don't want future humans to be played as the bad guys here.
    "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care... or why it should be necessary to prove it at all."

  13. #73
    Lieutenant Colonel rushy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."

    Moffat tends to pander to the fans a lot lately, but he's still got it where it counts I believe.
    "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care... or why it should be necessary to prove it at all."

  14. #74
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Pops View Post
    Actually I think it would make for an awesome story if the Doctor had to save an alien civilization from humans..... The reverse of say that story with the Sycorax and only it's not them invading but humans...... That might be fun to see the shoe on the other foot and humans as the aggressors...
    I actually devised a follow up story to the Christmas invasion, coco, where in the future when Earth has finally gained space capability, UNIT is waging war on the sycorax themselves. The Doctor materialises aboard one of their ships where the admiral of the fleet explains that their in a war for their survival and fighting for survival, which the Doctor is ready to believe (as he tends to do with UNIT commanders), only to discover later that the ship is loaded with nuclear warheads and after pressing the issue for a while figures out that they're going all Ender on the sycorax and going for their homeworld. Doctor gets real pissed off and gives a whole speech about how the sycorax aren't some faceless evil enemy, but a culture that is filled with history and life that is just as equal as earth's and reveals that the sycorax started out as the same as earth, just defending themselves.
    In the end the Doctor is forced to take a stand and stop the UNIT ships, but he also makes sure the sycorax can't retaliate either.
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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    I actually devised a follow up story to the Christmas invasion, coco, where in the future when Earth has finally gained space capability, UNIT is waging war on the sycorax themselves. The Doctor materialises aboard one of their ships where the admiral of the fleet explains that their in a war for their survival and fighting for survival, which the Doctor is ready to believe (as he tends to do with UNIT commanders), only to discover later that the ship is loaded with nuclear warheads and after pressing the issue for a while figures out that they're going all Ender on the sycorax and going for their homeworld. Doctor gets real pissed off and gives a whole speech about how the sycorax aren't some faceless evil enemy, but a culture that is filled with history and life that is just as equal as earth's and reveals that the sycorax started out as the same as earth, just defending themselves.
    In the end the Doctor is forced to take a stand and stop the UNIT ships, but he also makes sure the sycorax can't retaliate either.


    See that would be totally awesome......... Why can't you take Moffat's place?

  16. #76
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Pops View Post
    See that would be totally awesome......... Why can't you take Moffat's place?
    ...Now I'm torn... on the one hand, I love the Moff... on the other... personal glory... hmmm.
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  17. #77
    Lieutenant Colonel rushy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    I actually devised a follow up story to the Christmas invasion, coco, where in the future when Earth has finally gained space capability, UNIT is waging war on the sycorax themselves. The Doctor materialises aboard one of their ships where the admiral of the fleet explains that their in a war for their survival and fighting for survival, which the Doctor is ready to believe (as he tends to do with UNIT commanders), only to discover later that the ship is loaded with nuclear warheads and after pressing the issue for a while figures out that they're going all Ender on the sycorax and going for their homeworld. Doctor gets real pissed off and gives a whole speech about how the sycorax aren't some faceless evil enemy, but a culture that is filled with history and life that is just as equal as earth's and reveals that the sycorax started out as the same as earth, just defending themselves.
    In the end the Doctor is forced to take a stand and stop the UNIT ships, but he also makes sure the sycorax can't retaliate either.
    A good story, and future UNIT would be really cool, but the Sycorax were very boring villains with their Halloween mask faces.
    "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care... or why it should be necessary to prove it at all."

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    I actually devised a follow up story to the Christmas invasion, coco, where in the future when Earth has finally gained space capability, UNIT is waging war on the sycorax themselves. The Doctor materialises aboard one of their ships where the admiral of the fleet explains that their in a war for their survival and fighting for survival, which the Doctor is ready to believe (as he tends to do with UNIT commanders), only to discover later that the ship is loaded with nuclear warheads and after pressing the issue for a while figures out that they're going all Ender on the sycorax and going for their homeworld. Doctor gets real pissed off and gives a whole speech about how the sycorax aren't some faceless evil enemy, but a culture that is filled with history and life that is just as equal as earth's and reveals that the sycorax started out as the same as earth, just defending themselves.
    In the end the Doctor is forced to take a stand and stop the UNIT ships, but he also makes sure the sycorax can't retaliate either.

    Oh, that sounds great! Well, maybe you haven't got to tale over from Moffat completly, just force him to let you write this episode ;-)

    A good story, and future UNIT would be really cool, but the Sycorax were very boring villains with their Halloween mask faces.
    I rather liked their robes But yeah, they wear quite boring. Doesn't mean you could make them more interessting by couloring their backround a little etc.
    Nobody asked me, if I wanted to live. So don't anyone tell me how I shoul lead my life.

  19. #79
    Major General iiradned's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    Well the Sycorax were part of the Pandorica conspiracy.
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  20. #80
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    Default Re: Into the Dalek (3402/802)

    That's true but even a boring villain can be made more interesting with the right story.

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