Deep Breath (3401/801)

[DigiFluid]

The Seventh Doctor said he was 952 long before the Nonth Doctor showed up and said he was 900... I am seriously never going to forgive RTD for that... Anyway, I digress. The point is that there is a gap in the Timewar, but I'm guessing that when you're fighting a war that literally spans all of tie and space, time itself becomes a little meaningless.

It's almost meaningless to try to work out the Doctor's age; there's just way too many contradictions and competing factors for it to ever work out neatly.

In the original run of the show, you had the odd reference here and there with his age gradually ascending throughout its run--I believe it was something like 450 during Tom Baker's tenure, then as you say 952 during McCoy's. But then, earlier than that, Jon Pertwee's Doctor told Jo that he was "thousands of years old." So, even dialogue in the original run of the show doesn't work out.

Get into prose, and things get more complicated. There's a Seventh Doctor story out there where he's celebrated his 1000th birthday. That's more or less in line with McCoy dialogue, but doesn't line up with either Pertwee or Eccleston. Prose also suggests that the Doctor was 200something at the time he left Gallifrey, so the line "900 years of time and space" from Eccleston would already pass 1100 years.

And then there's also the Big Finish audios--which I hasten to point out were legitimized in the The Night of the Doctor short last year. I can't speak much to the Davison and CBaker stories, but I know at one point in the McGann run, he spends 600 years stuck on a planet. That would put him in the 1500 range, but only if you accept McCoy and ignore both Pertwee and Eccleston.

Fast forward to just recently--the War Doctor novel Engines of War. In it, the Time War last for four centuries from the POV of its players. That alone throws a wrench into the works. Depending on whether or not you accept other prose and audio, that puts him at 1350, 1550, or 1950 years of age at the end of the War Doctor's life--none of which line up with Eccleston/Tennant/Smith/Capaldi, and is in a novel which was only published a few weeks ago!

On top of all that, there's the biggest problem of all: whose "years" are we talking about? Is he talking about Earth years, because that's where the majority of his companions come from? Or is he talking about Gallifrey years, because that's who and what he is? How long is a Gallifreyan year? Longer or shorter than an Earth year? Maybe he's not using Gallifreyan years at all--maybe there's some galactic or universal standard measurement of time with its own definition of a year.

Honestly I think the only explanation that's even remotely satisfactory is that the Doctor simply doesn't know how old he is, and so he just makes a guess.

[iiradned]

Someone said upthread that Time Lords are supposed to have control over their regenerations as we witnessed with both Romana and Ten. Romana, intentionally regenerated completing the Key to Time mission. She paraded several forms for the Doctor's opinion before settling on a form identical to Princess Astra. And with Ten he selected his current form during his regeneration during Stolen Earth/Journey's End.

I think the Doctor likes a bit of chaos and simply lets the dice roll whichever way when it comes to regenerations, except during Night of the Doctor where he accepted help from the Sisterhood of Karn.

As to why the Doctor chose this particular face to regenerate into, we may have to torture it out of Moffat.

[rushy]

It's almost meaningless to try to work out the Doctor's age; there's just way too many contradictions and competing factors for it to ever work out neatly.

In the original run of the show, you had the odd reference here and there with his age gradually ascending throughout its run--I believe it was something like 450 during Tom Baker's tenure, then as you say 952 during McCoy's. But then, earlier than that, Jon Pertwee's Doctor told Jo that he was "thousands of years old." So, even dialogue in the original run of the show doesn't work out.

Get into prose, and things get more complicated. There's a Seventh Doctor story out there where he's celebrated his 1000th birthday. That's more or less in line with McCoy dialogue, but doesn't line up with either Pertwee or Eccleston. Prose also suggests that the Doctor was 200something at the time he left Gallifrey, so the line "900 years of time and space" from Eccleston would already pass 1100 years.

And then there's also the Big Finish audios--which I hasten to point out were legitimized in the The Night of the Doctor short last year. I can't speak much to the Davison and CBaker stories, but I know at one point in the McGann run, he spends 600 years stuck on a planet. That would put him in the 1500 range, but only if you accept McCoy and ignore both Pertwee and Eccleston.

Fast forward to just recently--the War Doctor novel Engines of War. In it, the Time War last for four centuries from the POV of its players. That alone throws a wrench into the works. Depending on whether or not you accept other prose and audio, that puts him at 1350, 1550, or 1950 years of age at the end of the War Doctor's life--none of which line up with Eccleston/Tennant/Smith/Capaldi, and is in a novel which was only published a few weeks ago!

On top of all that, there's the biggest problem of all: whose "years" are we talking about? Is he talking about Earth years, because that's where the majority of his companions come from? Or is he talking about Gallifrey years, because that's who and what he is? How long is a Gallifreyan year? Longer or shorter than an Earth year? Maybe he's not using Gallifreyan years at all--maybe there's some galactic or universal standard measurement of time with its own definition of a year.

Honestly I think the only explanation that's even remotely satisfactory is that the Doctor simply doesn't know how old he is, and so he just makes a guess.

But not a very educated one.

[StargateMillennium]

Still need to get used to Capaldi but when he ripped the fake face off his head and announced himself, you could tell he was definitely the Doctor.

I really hope this isn't Clara's last season. She's the one who truly got me into Doctor Who to begin with.

[Nolamom]

No, it's just another cycle.
Capaldi is basically the First Doctor of the 2nd cycle.

Are you certain, and, more importantly, HOW do you know?

[DigiFluid]

Just got home from seeing Deep Breath at the movies, ah what fun! It's a Monday night--so it's both two days after original airing and a work/school night--and yet it was still sold out at the biggest theatre at the cinema. There were lots of people in DW-themed shirts (and ladies in DW dresses), and more than a few people with sonic screwdrivers in the audience.

Bonus: I had a much older gentleman in the row in front of me, who as it turns out is from Liverpool, who said to anyone who asked that he'd been a fan for 50 years. AND he was wearing a Tom Baker scarf for the occasion

[Phinguyver]

Peter Capaldi IS The Doctor. He owned it totally. I loved how confused and disoriented he was at the beginning. I have high hopes about where this season is going to go.

Some gems I noticed:
The scarf reference
wishing the TARDIS had more circle things on the walls
Eyebrows
The Doctor liked Amy Pond's legs as much as I did.

There were several more, and I'm going to watch the episode again here soon.

Personally, I can't get enough of the Daleks, although I hated the Manhattan episode.

4 out of 5 jelly babies.

[Gatefan1976]

Ach, I'm sick of the Daleks, give us some new enemies to worry about.
"I killed you all in the time war, sacrificed my fellow timelords to do it as well, woe is me"

Oh look, a Dalek............

Give them a rest for gods sake, how much cheaper do you want to make the doctors sacrifice??

[Quizziard]

Ach, I'm sick of the Daleks, give us some new enemies to worry about.
"I killed you all in the time war, sacrificed my fellow timelords to do it as well, woe is me"

Oh look, a Dalek............

Give them a rest for gods sake, how much cheaper do you want to make the doctors sacrifice??

Yes, at a philosophical level, that is and always will be the case for nu-Who. But it's also television. And if you ask someone about Doctor Who, they will mentally picture three things: the current (or their favourite) Doctor, the TARDIS and a Dalek. If you saw the "live Q&A" shown in cinemas after Deep Breath, a five year old asked why we see the repeated appearance of old monsters. SM was unrepentant: because they can be as interesting as new ones AND because the fans themselves want them back. Though I'd agree, once PC has had his introductory episode, can they drop them for 20 episode or so please...

[Gatefan1976]

Don't get me wrong, I like a Dalek, or a cyberman, -ON THE ODD OCCASION-, but I just don't want to see a "dalek story" every season.

Stance one: "Oh look, it's a Dalek"

Stance 2: "OMFG, it's a DALEK, HOW did they survive!!!"

They are like seasoning, good and effective in small doses.

[Starfist]

New Seasson, New Theme, New Doctor...!
Well done.

Loved the twist towards the end of the episode.

[BruTak]

Are you certain, and, more importantly, HOW do you know?

I refer you to post #68 in this very thread.

[Nolamom]

I refer you to post #68 in this very thread.

And I contend that he was referring to THAT particular regeneration, and not a commentary on how much regeneration energy he has available for future use. It did not say that he was using ALL the energy provided by the universe for that one regeneration. It merely was a comment about that particular cycle.

Also, by "cycle" does the Doctor mean ONE regeneration, or the entire "cycle" of twelve regenerations? I seriously doubt that Moffat is planning on coming up with another Duex ex Machina for every new Doctor from here on out. No, far more likely that he's counting on a reset to provide for enough regenerations to last for the foreseeable future.

[Greenee]

Are you certain, and, more importantly, HOW do you know?

I think it was explaind in an interview or official statement somewhere (don't ask me where). And wasn't it shown in the christmas special itself? But I would have to go back, watching it again, to be sure how much it is explaeind there.

[Blencathra]

And I contend that he was referring to THAT particular regeneration, and not a commentary on how much regeneration energy he has available for future use. It did not say that he was using ALL the energy provided by the universe for that one regeneration. It merely was a comment about that particular cycle.

Also, by "cycle" does the Doctor mean ONE regeneration, or the entire "cycle" of twelve regenerations? I seriously doubt that Moffat is planning on coming up with another Duex ex Machina for every new Doctor from here on out. No, far more likely that he's counting on a reset to provide for enough regenerations to last for the foreseeable future.

My understanding is that 1 cycle = 12 regenerations. The Doctor has been given a whole new set of 12 regenerations (like the Master in The Five Doctors).

So we won't have to worry about this again for another 30-40 years, until we get to Doctor No. 24.

Edit - Incidentally, I can think of a few instances where there has been mention of a 12 regeneration limit (one cycle) and then being given another cycle, but no instances of anyone being given unlimited regenerations.