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  1. #41
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    If you are speaking in a strictly legal sense, no, there is no reason for them to feel guilty. I am more than sure that Lucasarts covered their butts in that regard. If however you consider that those authors were operating under the knowledge that they had a free hand, and that there would be no movies post ROTJ (which Lucas was adamant about for some 20 plus years), you can see why those authors, and the fans of their work might be a bit miffed in seeing the EU post ROTJ being reduced to little more than resource material.
    Speaking as a writer myself, I'd be completely fine with that. Any author of the EU has known full well that their work was owned by someone else and that it might be used or changed at any point. They've had the work published which they'll have done more as a labour of love because I can more than guarantee that they have other projects they are known for. They just do it because they're star wars fans and they have been able to write their own stories and have a bit of fun and get paid for it. Their work is still out there. It hasn't been diminished in any way as a work on it's own. And speaking for myself, if Disney end up using an EU character that I created, I wouldn't be miffed, I'd be flattered. If it was a character or a story that I owned then yes I'd be miffed, but with the full knowledge that it never was owned by me, yes, I would be flattered.
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  2. #42
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    Speaking as a writer myself, I'd be completely fine with that. Any author of the EU has known full well that their work was owned by someone else and that it might be used or changed at any point. They've had the work published which they'll have done more as a labour of love because I can more than guarantee that they have other projects they are known for. They just do it because they're star wars fans and they have been able to write their own stories and have a bit of fun and get paid for it. Their work is still out there. It hasn't been diminished in any way as a work on it's own.
    See, I would be inclined to agree with this standpoint, I have read a few other novels from some of the EU authors, and I know many of them a "Genre Authors" who write in the "sandbox" of others. Michael Stackpole, R.A. Salvatore spring immediately to mind. While these two authors, and others have indeed "borrowed" other settings (The Battletech universe and the Forgotten Realms settings respectively for example) they have added immensely to the tapestries of those universes. So too have they added to the rich tapestry that is the SW universe.
    This leads to this:
    And speaking for myself, if Disney end up using an EU character that I created, I wouldn't be miffed, I'd be flattered. If it was a character or a story that I owned then yes I'd be miffed, but with the full knowledge that it never was owned by me, yes, I would be flattered.
    Lucasarts NEVER created the EU stories, or the EU characters, they ARE the unique works of the authors. FASA did not create Phelan Kell, or his stories any more then TSR made Drizzit Do'Urdan. They, and their stories are the product of the authors imagination alone. YES, they exist in someone else's sandbox, but these are not fan fiction stories, they are stamped with the "seal of approval" of the owners of that sandbox. To turn them into no more than resource mines is a bitter pill for some. Even more, one could create an argument that the ONLY reason something like SW has survived to be a multi-generational franchise is on the very backs of those EU authors who kept it alive, and one could make the SAME argument for Dr Who.

    Remember, I am not arguing the "legalese" here; Legally all is good and proper, and the owner of the time has the right to dictate whatever they wish, kick what they want, keep what they will. Disney could ALSO kick all the films currently made to the curb as well, it IS within their legal right as owners of the IP, and George Lucas would have no leg to stand on, it's not his sandbox anymore.
    Of course, the FANS may be a bit miffed..............
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  3. #43
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    Of course, the FANS may be a bit miffed..............
    Indeed.... but fans don't matter.

    Well they do but generally movie makers aren't making films just for fans, they make them for everyone. You throw in some nice mentions for the fans but beyond that it's more like "what have you done for us lately?"... And Star Wars is still one of those franchises that still gets as many average joes off the street wanting to watch as actual, proper hardcore fans...
    Even if every single EU fan out there decided to collectively not see Episode VII because of the outrage, it would barely cause a blip on Disney's radar... partially because a lot of fans will lie to their peers and go see the film anyway regardless of any outrage (but naturally, only on a discount night), but also because at the end of the day, the vast majority of people who will be going to see the films (and many of them really love star wars as much as any card carrying fan) have never even glanced at an EU book.
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  4. #44
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    Indeed.... but fans don't matter.

    Well they do but generally movie makers aren't making films just for fans, they make them for everyone. You throw in some nice mentions for the fans but beyond that it's more like "what have you done for us lately?"... And Star Wars is still one of those franchises that still gets as many average joes off the street wanting to watch as actual, proper hardcore fans...
    Even if every single EU fan out there decided to collectively not see Episode VII because of the outrage, it would barely cause a blip on Disney's radar... partially because a lot of fans will lie to their peers and go see the film anyway regardless of any outrage (but naturally, only on a discount night), but also because at the end of the day, the vast majority of people who will be going to see the films (and many of them really love star wars as much as any card carrying fan) have never even glanced at an EU book.
    This is all true.
    I guess my question is, would Disney have ever bought Lucasarts without the work and dedication of people that they now see as a blip? Would lucasarts even exist? I would wager it only remained commercially relevant due to the advancements of ILM and THX, not for the movies Lucas made post S.W. or I.J.

    If commercial viability is the standard of what is "good" or "right", it is no wonder we are inundated with things like "Real Housewives" or "the Kardashians" and "Survivor", and movies have become little more that CGI action orgies with no heart, soul or message. Even when movies with a message are made, the G.P. care more about that "great action sequence" or the "rack/arse on that chick"
    ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
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  5. #45
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    This is all true.
    I guess my question is, would Disney have ever bought Lucasarts without the work and dedication of people that they now see as a blip? Would lucasarts even exist? I would wager it only remained commercially relevant due to the advancements of ILM and THX, not for the movies Lucas made post S.W. or I.J.
    Nitpick: I think you mean Lucasfilm or even Lucas Licensing

    I agree with the sentiment though... How many millions upon millions of dollars did they make on the hundreds of comics, on the dozens upon dozens of bestseller-listed novels, on the insanely popular video games? The EU isn't (wasn't) just something that was created to be an idea mine for future plagiarists. It was a living universe which continued the SW universe and continued maintaining Lucasfilm's profitability in the 16 years between trilogies and the decade since Episode III came out.

    No doubt Lucasfilm would still have been a pricey and viable property with seven films and several TV series to its name, but the value of the EU to the SW brand and to Lucasfilm's overall worth is/was immeasurable.

    Had they chosen to respect the EU and either told a story in the existing framework or else adapted an existing story, they would have won twice over--they would have satisfied existing fans, and everyone knows damn well that tons of 'casual' fans will turn out to see anything with "STAR WARS" stamped on it.

    But no. They threw out decades of hard work by hundreds of authors enjoyed by millions of fans--because it was inconvenient for less than ten film writers.
    "Not every movie is for you. Not every TV show is for you. Not every song is for you. Find the things you like, and like them. Go nuts liking them. A thing ISN’T for you? Cool. Go find something you like. That’s it. That’s as complicated as it should be." -- David Blue

  6. #46
    Chief Master Sergeant Sakura's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    Nitpick: I think you mean Lucasfilm or even Lucas Licensing

    I agree with the sentiment though... How many millions upon millions of dollars did they make on the hundreds of comics, on the dozens upon dozens of bestseller-listed novels, on the insanely popular video games? The EU isn't (wasn't) just something that was created to be an idea mine for future plagiarists. It was a living universe which continued the SW universe and continued maintaining Lucasfilm's profitability in the 16 years between trilogies and the decade since Episode III came out.

    No doubt Lucasfilm would still have been a pricey and viable property with seven films and several TV series to its name, but the value of the EU to the SW brand and to Lucasfilm's overall worth is/was immeasurable.

    Had they chosen to respect the EU and either told a story in the existing framework or else adapted an existing story, they would have won twice over--they would have satisfied existing fans, and everyone knows damn well that tons of 'casual' fans will turn out to see anything with "STAR WARS" stamped on it.

    But no. They threw out decades of hard work by hundreds of authors enjoyed by millions of fans--because it was inconvenient for less than ten film writers.
    I think Disney's motivation for doing that is: "why work into something that the fans like when we can do whatever the hell we want with our shiny new franchise"

    Disney's just plain evil

  7. #47
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    Nitpick: I think you mean Lucasfilm or even Lucas Licensing

    I agree with the sentiment though... How many millions upon millions of dollars did they make on the hundreds of comics, on the dozens upon dozens of bestseller-listed novels, on the insanely popular video games? The EU isn't (wasn't) just something that was created to be an idea mine for future plagiarists. It was a living universe which continued the SW universe and continued maintaining Lucasfilm's profitability in the 16 years between trilogies and the decade since Episode III came out.

    No doubt Lucasfilm would still have been a pricey and viable property with seven films and several TV series to its name, but the value of the EU to the SW brand and to Lucasfilm's overall worth is/was immeasurable.

    Had they chosen to respect the EU and either told a story in the existing framework or else adapted an existing story, they would have won twice over--they would have satisfied existing fans, and everyone knows damn well that tons of 'casual' fans will turn out to see anything with "STAR WARS" stamped on it.

    But no. They threw out decades of hard work by hundreds of authors enjoyed by millions of fans--because it was inconvenient for less than ten film writers.
    I think really you can equate the EU now to that of the Star Trek Universe. The only things you can consider as canon in star trek is what you see on TV and in film. I think somewhere it has been said that Star Trek Online can be considered canon too but that's only in the sense that it helps to explain the JJ Trek time line. In the Star Trek EU there are some great stories like the New Frontier series, or the Corp of Engineers but they would never be considered truly canon except in the circumstances that had paramount decide to make them into a tv series. Even Star Trek computer games make no sense most of the time in terms of where they fit on the timeline (certainly barely any Activision game doesn't, with the possible exception of Bridge Commander).

    Now personally I'm a big fan of New Frontier so I like to imagine that somewhere those character exist in the universe when I'm watching DS9 or Voyager, but I would never expect for those characters in those situations to be considered the word of god. Nor particularly would Peter David, who created the characters n first place consider them to be canon.

    At the end of the day, it is unreasonable to expect Disney to stick to the EU at all. Lucas definitely wouldn't have. He never liked the EU to begin with, but yet we talk about Disney as if they are being particularly malicious when all they are doing is making what is most likely the best judgement call from a story perspective.
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  8. #48
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    P-90
    There is one distinct, yet important difference between ST EU and SW EU
    Gene Roddenberry NEVER said "I am done, my story is told", George Lucas DID. In purely technical terms, both EU's were always "non canon", and I think we are all aware of that. What is getting my goat at least is, these authors were given free reign, and now they are getting canned for "business reasons"

    It's illogical, sure, but fandom is rarely logical.
    ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
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  9. #49
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    In purely technical terms, both EU's were always "non canon"
    Not so with Star Wars. Everything was canon--subject to the canon hierarchy. Films, TV episodes, comics, novels, video games--everything.

    With respect to Trek, nothing beyond what appeared on screens was ever considered part of the canon.
    "Not every movie is for you. Not every TV show is for you. Not every song is for you. Find the things you like, and like them. Go nuts liking them. A thing ISN’T for you? Cool. Go find something you like. That’s it. That’s as complicated as it should be." -- David Blue

  10. #50
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    heres the old canon levels prior to Disney's axe falling on them

    G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).

    T-canon, or Television Canon, refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee.

    C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be; they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

    S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

    N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

  11. #51
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Copied and pasted from Wookieepedia, I see. I recognize that text
    "Not every movie is for you. Not every TV show is for you. Not every song is for you. Find the things you like, and like them. Go nuts liking them. A thing ISN’T for you? Cool. Go find something you like. That’s it. That’s as complicated as it should be." -- David Blue

  12. #52
    Chief Master Sergeant Sakura's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    you've a keen eye sir

  13. #53
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    P-90
    There is one distinct, yet important difference between ST EU and SW EU
    Gene Roddenberry NEVER said "I am done, my story is told", George Lucas DID. In purely technical terms, both EU's were always "non canon", and I think we are all aware of that. What is getting my goat at least is, these authors were given free reign, and now they are getting canned for "business reasons"

    It's illogical, sure, but fandom is rarely logical.
    To be fair fandom is an awful, awful thing... and I say that as a massive fan of all manner of sci-fi and fantasy. We spend all our spare cash into tv shows, books, merchandise and conventions... stick all that money into the real world and we would have probably solved world hunger by now... It's true. We are terrible people.
    Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by rushy View Post
    No offense to the good stories, but canon should stick to the screen.
    Why?


    "Five Rounds Rapid"




  15. #55
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboy View Post
    Why?
    For starters, it's a lot more easier to keep track of, it's far more mainstream and it offers the widest array of possibilities. Say what you want about a gripping storyline or a magnificient description, great visuals can save a mediocre story, but a great story can be let down by mediocre visuals.


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  16. #56
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Ok, I know, I'm resurrecting an old thread here.

    With the release of TFA, it seems to me that they aren't completely ignoring older non-film content. TFA refers to Luke Skywalker going into self imposed exile due to one of his students turning to the dark side and becoming a problem. Although not named, I suspect they're referring to Kyp Durron, one of Luke's first students in his Jedi Academy, as I recall.

    Also, from a practical perspective, there have been hundreds if not thousands of off screen Star Wars novels, comics and other non-movie content created over the damn near 40 years this franchise has been in existence. Granting canon status to that body of work would tie the writers hands so they couldn't write anything without contradicting something that someone has written and published.
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  17. #57
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Also, from a practical perspective, there have been hundreds if not thousands of off screen Star Wars novels, comics and other non-movie content created over the damn near 40 years this franchise has been in existence. Granting canon status to that body of work would tie the writers hands so they couldn't write anything without contradicting something that someone has written and published.
    I said that right in the first post of this thread
    Last edited by DigiFluid; December 29th, 2015 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Quote for clarity
    "Not every movie is for you. Not every TV show is for you. Not every song is for you. Find the things you like, and like them. Go nuts liking them. A thing ISN’T for you? Cool. Go find something you like. That’s it. That’s as complicated as it should be." -- David Blue

  18. #58
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Ok, I know, I'm resurrecting an old thread here.

    With the release of TFA, it seems to me that they aren't completely ignoring older non-film content. TFA refers to Luke Skywalker going into self imposed exile due to one of his students turning to the dark side and becoming a problem. Although not named, I suspect they're referring to Kyp Durron, one of Luke's first students in his Jedi Academy, as I recall.

    Also, from a practical perspective, there have been hundreds if not thousands of off screen Star Wars novels, comics and other non-movie content created over the damn near 40 years this franchise has been in existence. Granting canon status to that body of work would tie the writers hands so they couldn't write anything without contradicting something that someone has written and published.
    Really? It seemed pretty obvious that
    Spoiler:
    The old Student mentioned was Kylo Ren
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  19. #59
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    Really? It seemed pretty obvious that
    Spoiler:
    The old Student mentioned was Kylo Ren
    That was the whole point of [redacted]'s character in TFA
    "Not every movie is for you. Not every TV show is for you. Not every song is for you. Find the things you like, and like them. Go nuts liking them. A thing ISN’T for you? Cool. Go find something you like. That’s it. That’s as complicated as it should be." -- David Blue

  20. #60
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    Default Re: The Disney Canon

    Hmm... Was Kylo Ren a character in some non-film story?

    I haven't read any of the recent (10+ years) books that have been released. To be blunt, Although I read at a good clip, it's far too slow these days. I simply don't have time to indulge. A movie can tell a story in 2 hours that can take much longer in book form.
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