Why did they continue to rely on firearms?

[MaximRecoil]

With all the advancements in technology they discovered over the years, they couldn't come up with something more formidable than automatic firearms, which represent fundamental technology that is over 100 years old?

The main problems with firearms are:

1. Limited ammunition.
2. Can be defeated or mitigated with personal armor, even with 20th century Earth technology.

This creates 2 problems with believability in SG-1

1. Extended firefights, as are often depicted throughout all of the series, couldn't actually happen, especially with the characters' ridiculous propensity toward the "spray & pray" firing "technique"; they simply couldn't practically carry enough ammo.
2. We have to believe that the Goa'uld wouldn't quickly upgrade the Jaffa's armor to defeat bullets.

With regard to #1, an e.g. FN P90 has a cyclic rate of 900 RPM, and the characters nearly always fire them on full-auto. Each magazine holds 50 rounds, which means it is empty in 3.33 seconds of sustained full-auto fire. To make matters worse, their beloved P90s are slow to reload, because the horizontal top-loading magazines don't simply drop-free and fall to the ground with the press of a button like with typical assault rifles, submachine guns, and semi-automatic handguns. They have to be manually removed with your free hand before another one can be put in its place.

Even if each character carried ten magazines (which they clearly don't), that's only 33.33 seconds' worth of sustained automatic fire, with of course, 9 awkward/slow reloads mixed in there.

Realistically, the Jaffa would have dominated them, if not for unbelievable writing conveniently in favor of the protagonists. The replicators would have overrun them almost instantly, if not for the writers pretending that each P90 or shotgun has the firepower of a crew-served squad-auto.

When we get to Atlantis we find that the firearms don't have enough killing power against the Wraith, particularly when they have recently "fed", yet still, no replacement for firearms is sought. They came up with "anti-replicator weapons", and even mass-produced them, yet they are still carrying P90s against the Wraith?

A rapid-fire energy weapon, like Anubis' "super soldiers" had, is what they needed (along with the option of dematerializing, like the 3rd shot of a "zat gun" does), and the super soldiers' armor wouldn't have hurt either. They wouldn't have even needed to reverse-engineer anything (unless they wanted to improve it), given that the Asgards have "replicator" technology (Star Trek style "replicator" I mean, rather than mechanical spiders), and by the end of SG-1, Earth has all the Asgard technology.

Speaking of the Asgard replicator technology, they should have been able to replicate ZPMs for that matter. Not that they had to wait until they got their hands on Asgard technology, given that any stargate or "beaming"-type transporter device is automatically a replicator, transporter, and dematerializer weapon by default, with some slight modifications depending on which of those already-built-in functions you want to focus on.

[Cmdr. Setsuna F. Seyei]

First off have you actually seen any of the P90's test videos released by FN Herstal?

The P90's round was developed to have the accuracy of a NATO 5.56 round while having the stopping/penetrating power of the Russian 7.62 round. The videos mentioned above show the P90 on single shot punching 2 feet into a 3 ft. steel plate. This means that even if the Goa'uld were concerned with keeping their Jaffa alive (which we know they saw the Jaffa as expendable) there would be no armor thick enough to stop the round and still allow the Jaffa to move.

Next up is the fact that I own every single episode of Stargate including all 3 movies and I have yet to see any of the characters use full auto. It is usually a rapid fire 3 round burst.

Finally as to the upgrading of weapons while we have seen some pretty cool advanced tech (like Ronan's gun) we are more focused on producing interstellar and intergalactic capable ships than we are with small arms. I mean come on. why produce these high tech small arms when we can just blast them from space? and it may also be the fact that the advanced weapons that we've seen in the series all rely on naquadah which would be another reason for not making small arms as all of the current naquadah that earth gets is immediately put towards ship building.

[MaximRecoil]

First off have you actually seen any of the P90's test videos released by FN Herstal?

The P90's round was developed to have the accuracy of a NATO 5.56 round while having the stopping/penetrating power of the Russian 7.62 round.

There is nothing special about either the accuracy of the 5.56mm NATO or the "stopping/penetrating power" of the 7.62x39mm. Accuracy is far more dependent upon the gun than the cartridge. The 7.62x39mm is a little less powerful than the classic .30-30 Winchester, which is considered marginal for deer-sized game. It is far less powerful than a 7.62mm NATO / .308 Winchester or .30-06 Springfield.

The FN 5.7x28mm which the P90 is chambered for is significantly less powerful than the 5.56mm NATO / .223 Remington. It is similar in power to a .22 Hornet. The 5.56mm NATO is considered underpowered for deer-sized game by responsible hunters, and the .22 Hornet even more so. They are both considered "varmint" cartridges (e.g. groundhogs), and the .22 Hornet a short-range one at that. The 5.56mm NATO is considered a medium-range varmint cartridge, and cartridges such as the .220 Swift and .22-250 Remington are considered long-range varmint cartridges.

In any event, while the 5.7x28mm can generally defeat typical soft body armor out to a certain distance (as can any other similar cartridge), that is current Earth-technology body armor. We don't have here on Earth, for example, "Trinium", which is "an element that is a hundred times lighter and stronger than steel when refined".

The videos mentioned above show the P90 on single shot punching 2 feet into a 3 ft. steel plate. This means that even if the Goa'uld were concerned with keeping their Jaffa alive (which we know they saw the Jaffa as expendable) there would be no armor thick enough to stop the round and still allow the Jaffa to move.

No, a .22 Hornet-class cartridge can not even come close to penetrating 2 feet of solid steel. A .50 BMG, which makes a 5.7x28mm look like a cap gun (Here's a comparison picture; the 4.6×30mm cartridge in the #3 position is similar in dimensions to the P90's 5.7x28mm cartridge), can only get through about 1 inch of steel armor plate, though it might make it through 2 inches of mild steel. Here's a video showing a 5.7x28mm armor-piercing round failing to penetrate a steel plate which is approximately 1/4 inch thick.

Also, of course the Goa'uld are concerned with keeping their Jaffa alive. Their Jaffa are their primary source of power, and their last line of defense. They may be callous toward a Jaffa here and there when they have plenty at their disposal, but they certainly don't want their enemies winning battles against them.

Next up is the fact that I own every single episode of Stargate including all 3 movies and I have yet to see any of the characters use full auto. It is usually a rapid fire 3 round burst.

This claim is as incredible as the 2-feet of steel penetration claim. They use full-auto nearly all the time. You can pick almost any episode at random and see them firing full-auto, and sustaining it for significantly more than 3 rounds at a time. I can provide evidence of this if need be; I'm just surprised that I'd need to.

Finally as to the upgrading of weapons while we have seen some pretty cool advanced tech (like Ronan's gun) we are more focused on producing interstellar and intergalactic capable ships than we are with small arms. I mean come on. why produce these high tech small arms when we can just blast them from space?

Except, they do tons of small-team, on-the-ground missions, where "blasting them from space" isn't an option when they get in a tight spot.

and it may also be the fact that the advanced weapons that we've seen in the series all rely on naquadah which would be another reason for not making small arms as all of the current naquadah that earth gets is immediately put towards ship building.

For one thing, this shouldn't be a problem, as they have Star Trek style "replicator" technology. For another thing, they don't need to make very many of them. It is not as if they are equipping the entire U.S. Military with them; just a couple dozen 4-man teams.

[thekillman]

Speaking of the Asgard replicator technology, they should have been able to replicate ZPMs for that matter. Not that they had to wait until they got their hands on Asgard technology, given that any stargate or "beaming"-type transporter device is automatically a replicator, transporter, and dematerializer weapon by default, with some slight modifications depending on which of those already-built-in functions you want to focus on.

the short answer is no.

Quite simply, it would violate the conservation of energy. For a ZPM, it would mean no net increase as you would require as much energy for the stargate to create a duplicate ZPM as you would gain from the ZPM.

As to the rest, i can sum it up very easily.


Stargate rarely ever focuses on rules. We see strings of events with little to no explanation. While we hear analogies, we never truly discover rules. For instance, i find the ZPM idea limited. With such matter conversion tech you could use a stargate to power a planet via direct matter-> energy conversion without any need for antimatter. Just throw matter in and get energy out. That nobody ever tries this is a hint towards the impossibility of such tricks, but it's never more than a hint. And that's all we ever get.

For the purpose of warfare: the goa'uld didnt care. It's pretty clear they always treated everything as "somebody else's problem" and a couple of jaffa dying to effective firearms is not their concern.

Consider the alternative: if the goa'uld had the guts and desire to effectively implement such things, wouldn't they have built their entire society and warfare different to begin with?



Lastly, the P90 was favored because it's a nice weapon for exploration. It would be really awkward walking into a village with an LMG and claiming you "come in peace".


PS:

You can pick almost any episode at random and see them firing full-auto, and sustaining it for significantly more than 3 rounds at a time.

from memory i think they commonly fired at least 5 rounds.

[MaximRecoil]

the short answer is no.

Quite simply, it would violate the conservation of energy. For a ZPM, it would mean no net increase as you would require as much energy for the stargate to create a duplicate ZPM as you would gain from the ZPM.

No, it wouldn't. The ZPM is just a device which generates an artificial region of subspace time and then taps into the natural energy contained therein:

McKay: A Zero Point Module is an artificially created region of subspace time. It's kind of like a miniature universe in a bottle.

Zelenka: It extracts vacuum energy from this artificial region of subspace time until it reaches maximum entropy.

This is why its energy output can greatly exceed the equivalence of its mass, because its energy output is not derived from its mass, it is derived from subspace time. A windmill is a good analogy. It taps into a natural energy source, wind, rather than converting its mass to energy. To replicate a windmill, it only requires the energy equivalence of the mass of the matter it is constructed from (e.g., wood, metal), and if the windmill operates for a long enough time, its energy output can far exceed the amount of energy used to replicate it (because you are only replicating the device which taps into the wind; you aren't replicating wind itself, much less all of the wind it will tap into over its lifetime of operation).

A ZPM isn't particularly massive. It can be lifted by an average adult with one hand, and as such, it would require ~no more energy to replicate than any other object of the same/similar mass, such as the cello that Samantha Carter replicated in the final episode of SG-1.

For the purpose of warfare: the goa'uld didnt care. It's pretty clear they always treated everything as "somebody else's problem" and a couple of jaffa dying to effective firearms is not their concern.

Of course they cared, and it is more than a case of "a couple of Jaffa dying to effective firearms". In many cases it is a matter of critical Jaffa dying, allowing Earth to win yet another important victory against the Goa'uld, one that would have been prevented had they not gotten past the Jaffa.

Consider the alternative: if the goa'uld had the guts and desire to effectively implement such things, wouldn't they have built their entire society and warfare different to begin with?

The idea of effective personal armor is very simple, and dates back thousands of years in Earth's history alone. Why do you think Anubis came up with such effective armor for his "super soldiers"? He didn't care about any of them on a personal level, but making them hard to kill increases their power/effectiveness, and since he controls them, it increases his own power/effectiveness by proxy, and Goa'ulds love power above all else. And coming up with armor than can defeat the piddly FN 5.7x28mm, 9mm NATO, or 5.56mm NATO would be a walk in the park compared to the "super soldiers'" armor, which could not only defeat bullets, but energy weapons and explosives as well.

Lastly, the P90 was favored because it's a nice weapon for exploration. It would be really awkward walking into a village with an LMG and claiming you "come in peace".

That actually brings up another disadvantage of firearms, i.e., they can only kill or seriously injure. Energy weapons on the other hand, can have a "stun" setting. Stunned, but otherwise unharmed, opponents are a lot more conducive to peace talks after a battle than dead or maimed opponents.

from memory i think they commonly fired at least 5 rounds.

They often fired more than 5 rounds per burst. One of the lessons we learned from Vietnam is that every soldier using full-auto ("spray & pray") is a bad idea; the bullets fired-to-kill ratio in Vietnam was horrible (something like 50,000:1). This led to the M16A2's 3-round-burst fire control group (FCG) supplanting the M16A1's full-auto FCG. Even with a 3-round-burst function rather than a full-auto function, well-aimed semi-auto fire is still the best choice for most situations. Full-auto is mainly useful for "suppressive fire", and that role is best fulfilled by a crew-served machine gun. Being crew-served, they can carry a lot more ammo, can keep it fed continuously, and a machine gun is built to withstand the heat of prolonged automatic fire, whereas assault rifles and submachine guns are generally not.

However, Hollywood has an undying love affair with full-auto fire, regardless of how ridiculous their portrayals of it tend to be.

[thekillman]

No, it wouldn't. The ZPM is just a device which generates an artificial region of subspace time and then taps into the natural energy contained therein:

precisely. It's an artificial region of subspace time. In the ancient's age they probably had devices to make these from regular space time. However, if you throw a ZPM through a stargate and duplicate it, that means that Conservation of Energy states you need a zpm's worth of energy to make another.

A ZPM isn't particularly massive. It can be lifted by an average adult with one hand, and as such, it would require ~no more energy to replicate than any other object of the same/similar mass, such as the cello that Samantha Carter replicated in the final episode of SG-1.

I meant that you can throw in more mass, convert it to energy and use that to satisfy Conservation of Energy.

The idea of effective personal armor is very simple, and dates back thousands of years in Earth's history alone. Why do you think Anubis came up with such effective armor for his "super soldiers"?

to assassinate the goa'uld themselves and easily absorb a ton of power with minimal loss.

That actually brings up another disadvantage of firearms, i.e., they can only kill or seriously injure. Energy weapons on the other hand, can have a "stun" setting. Stunned, but otherwise unharmed, opponents are a lot more conducive to peace talks after a battle than dead or maimed opponents.

which is why a lot of SG personell later on carries zats.

However, Hollywood has an undying love affair with full-auto fire, regardless of how ridiculous their portrayals of it tend to be.

i'm not arguing nor going to argue with you about the use of firearms. It's stargate. I've had enough debates to know that if you dig deep enough you quickly stumble upon tons of hidden crap. It's always been intended to be more fantasy-ish than really hard sci fi. It doesn't make a ton of sense.


As i said before, if the goa'uld really cared that much about aspects like the ones you've mentioned, they would've cared to do a thousand things differently.

[MaximRecoil]

precisely. It's an artificial region of subspace time. In the ancient's age they probably had devices to make these from regular space time.

So you're suggesting that the artificial region of subspace time was created with another device and then somehow implanted into a ZPM? That doesn't make sense. A region of subspace time isn't something you can pick up and install elsewhere. What is going to sustain the artificial region of subspace time once your hypothetical device that created it is turned off? The ZPM itself obviously has to sustain the artificial region of subspace time, and if it can sustain an artificial region of subspace time, it should be able to create an artificial region of subspace time in the first place, thus no need for your hypothetical device.

We can see that a ZPM has several tall crystals of some sort making up the outer shell, and we know that crystals are a power source in the Stargate universe (a small crystal powers the Jaffa staff weapons for example). So, a method of operation that makes sense is: the crystals provide the energy to create and sustain an artificial region of subspace time, and then the inner workings of the ZPM, whatever they may be, tap into the huge amount of natural energy contained within the region of subspace time.

However, if you throw a ZPM through a stargate and duplicate it, that means that Conservation of Energy states you need a zpm's worth of energy to make another.

I've already explained why this is wrong, and I also gave the windmill analogy to go along with it. Here is another analogy:

Suppose you want to replicate a water wheel, which you plan to install in the Mississippi River, and you expect it will remain in operation for the next million years. Now, do you need a million years' worth of Mississippi River energy to replicate that water wheel? Of course not. You only need energy equivalent to the mass of the matter that the water wheel is constructed of.

In the above analogy, the water wheel is analogous to the ZPM device, and the Mississippi River is analogous to the artificial region of subspace time.

I meant that you can throw in more mass, convert it to energy and use that to satisfy Conservation of Energy.

That doesn't have anything to do with the text to which you replied. To replicate a ZPM, or anything else made from matter, you need energy equivalent to its mass, and a ZPM is not massive, given that it can be picked up with one hand by an average adult in Earth gravity. It would take ~no more energy to replicate a ZPM than it did to replicate Carter's cello.

to assassinate the goa'uld themselves and easily absorb a ton of power with minimal loss.

You answered a rhetorical question. In any event, the motive for giving the Jaffa personal armor which can defeat bullets is obvious, i.e., it makes the Jaffa more powerful, which makes the Goa'ulds who control them more powerful by proxy. Which of the following two options do you think a Goa'uld would prefer?

1. Being ousted from power or even killed because his dozens of nearby Jaffa were no match for 4 people with P90s.

2. Remaining in power because the 4 people with P90s found that they weren't effective against any of his Jaffa, forcing the 4 people to retreat or be killed.

which is why a lot of SG personell later on carries zats.

And an even better option is to have the stun capability built into your primary weapon, especially when it is a weapon that is more powerful than a firearm, isn't easily armored against, and doesn't run out of ammo.

i'm not arguing nor going to argue with you about the use of firearms. It's stargate. I've had enough debates to know that if you dig deep enough you quickly stumble upon tons of hidden crap. It's always been intended to be more fantasy-ish than really hard sci fi. It doesn't make a ton of sense.

As i said before, if the goa'uld really cared that much about aspects like the ones you've mentioned, they would've cared to do a thousand things differently.

Why does something as simple, basic, and obvious as making your soldiers harder to kill suggest that they "would've cared to do a thousand things differently"? People used personal armor thousands of years ago, and it didn't suggest that they were all-around tactical geniuses because of it.

[thekillman]

In the above analogy, the water wheel is analogous to the ZPM device, and the Mississippi River is analogous to the artificial region of subspace time.

that doesn't work. As i said, the region of spacetime is artificial. It's like your waterwheel analogy, except the river is part of what needs to reproduced.

So you're suggesting that the artificial region of subspace time was created with another device and then somehow implanted into a ZPM? That doesn't make sense.

sorry this made me laugh. It's hypothetical shenanigans to begin with.

A region of subspace time isn't something you can pick up and install elsewhere. What is going to sustain the artificial region of subspace time once your hypothetical device that created it is turned off?

I'm not an expert in metric engineering, but i'd wager a guess that it is intrinsically combined and as soon as the artificial region is made (or separated from our universe) it's immediately bottled in a ZPM.


Obviously there is a second explanation, which is the battery explanation. In stead of being an energy generator, a ZPM is merely a storage device. In which case it would require one hell of a power generation system to produce them. On the other hand, a space station orbiting a red dwarf and occasionally sundiving would fix that aspect.


In either case, your windmill analogy works for the Arcturus or Mckay-miller device. A ZPM has a universe in a bottle and if you want to duplicate a ZPM, you need to duplicate what's in the bottle.

the crystals provide the energy to create and sustain an artificial region of subspace time,

To be honest, i think this is a meaningless statement. Our space does not need anything to sustain it, and i doubt an artificial region of space needs to either.

~no more energy to replicate a ZPM than it did to replicate Carter's cello.

E=m*c^2. A ZPM case contains vast amounts of mass-energy. c=3*10^8 m/s. Squared means ~9x10^16. A kiloton is ~4*10^12J. Ergo, a ZPM, assuming it weighs about 5 kg, would hold 112 Mt of energy. ~200Mt if it weighs 10kg.

To blow up a planet you need 10^33 joules. Compared to that, 10^17 joules is nothing.



Ergo, to duplicate a ZPM you need to put in as much energy as you gain from a ZPM.

Why does something as simple, basic, and obvious as making your soldiers harder to kill suggest that they "would've cared to do a thousand things differently"? People used personal armor thousands of years ago, and it didn't suggest that they were all-around tactical geniuses because of it.

*sigh* i thought this was obvious enough but apparently it's not.

If they cared (or the writers did) to change that, they would also immediately toss aside those crap staffweapons, and deathgliders. And probably 2000 other things like using their fancy nanotech and robotics to do their stuff for them rather than rely on unschooled, incapable workers.

[thekillman]

In case this isn't clear:


Conservation of Energy MANDATES that a ZPM cloned, NEEDS to have the same total energy input as the output.

In formula form:


N.zpm*(M.zpm*c^2 + E.zpm ) + E.added = (M.zpm*c^2 + E.zpm ) *2*N.zpm

with:

N.zpm = amount of ZPM's (in this case 1)
M.zpm = mass of 1 ZPM
E.zpm = energy contained within a ZPM
E.added = energy required by the stargate

In short, E.added= M.zpm*c^2 + E.zpm

or, the energy you have to add is the mass-energy of a ZPM plus the energy it contains.


The physical representation of your solution is that a Stargate is responsible for "filling" the ZPM with spacetime. And that's not possible.

The reason is that what a ZPM is, is not really know, but we can infer how it works.

A ZPM contains an artificial piece of spacetime. Spacetime is the stuff we walk around in, so obviously a self-contained region is like a bubble within a bubble. The closest thing this would look like, is a Black Hole. Except a ZPM isn't.

So what does this mean?

It means that a ZPM does not, or rather can not, have a direct connection between our region of space and the self-contained region of space. If it would, we would notice the gravity.

Stargate gives us a solution in the form of the Matter Bridge. Which to me just sounds like a wormhole, but that might just be me. In "Brainstorm" as well as "mckay & ms miller" we have this wormhole-like thing that apparently doesn't have the gravity of a wormhole. So, a ZPM connected by wormhole to an artificial region of spacetime solves our problem.

Since we know absolutely nothing about what kind of stuff is outside our universe, it can be inferred that the distance between this microverse and our universe is meaningless. Quite simply, moving around a ZPM does not move the microverse itself. After all, if you would, you'd notice. A tether in the form of a wormhole/matterbridge connects the ZPM to the microverse and drains power.


A final bit of evidence for this comes in the form of what happens when black holes evaporate. when one does evaporate, it generates a gamma ray burst. Since a ZPM does not violently explode in a searing flash of light and nuclear energy when depleted, it can be thus concluded that the tether collapses before the microverse does. the microverse simply dissolves in....whatever our universe floats in.



Ergo, a ZPM is merely a shell, and duplicating one will only duplicate the shell.

Hence, it is not possible to duplicate functional ZPM's.

[P-90_177]

Getting back to the original point regarding projectile weaponry, the simple is why change what clearly works?

It's safe to say that Earth didn't have enough solid knowledge to build their own energy weapon for at least the first six seasons, and when they did build their own (that being the anubis soldier disrupters) they needed Tok'ra help.

Now before this they had a pretty solid template. Recon teams carried MP-5's, which were later replaced with P-90's, while heavier teams like the SG-3 marines generally carried M4's with usually one member carrying an M249 as an LMG. Clearly then other teams had a more assorted range of weapons.

In regards to the P-90 though, for which the discussion seems to be mainly based, I think there are three things that have been missed in regards to the benefits of the weapon.
Now as mentioned they are mainly used by recon teams, like SG-1. These are teams that could go into any kind of situation whenever they go through the gate but it seems like 90% of the time they aren't going to see combat. However a great deal of time they may meet an alien culture. In this regard we see the P-90's first benefit: It's nonthreatening. It's small, compact and isn't as imposing as other weapons that could be carried. People may recognize it as a weapon and that the teams are armed to defend themselves, but they won't see them as being so heavily armed to be an instant threat.

The next benefit is directly connected, in that it is quite light and compact, meaning that you can get in all manner of situations with it and still run, jump and crawl through tight spaces.

Third is the clip size. This is a little more obvious a benefit, but the key to this is that it makes for a great weapon for suppression fire.
A recon team does not want to be in prolonged combat. SG-1 and other similar teams mainly consist of only four people so you don't want to be getting into a prolonged firefight if you can avoid it. If however you can get the enemy to keep their collective heads down then it might give you the precious seconds you need to get to the gate and dial earth. No energy weapon seen in the series can provide this kind of benefit, with the possible exception of the anubis wrist blasters.

A more general advantage of projectile weapons in general, is that unlike all the energy weapons we've seen, you can't see projectile weapon fire. I mean yes in real life you have tracer rounds but we've never seen tracers in SG so... But this can be of great psychological importance. If you're travelling through a universe where people are use to seeing big, bright pew pew balls everywhere, they perhaps are not going to be quite so aware of the dangers of getting in the way of guns.

All the arguments about accuracy, stopping power and armour penetration are moot because at they end of the day we can see they work in the show. The heroes can shoot straight and clearly the ammo is more than enough to get thorough Jaffa and Wraith body protection.

Now of course they could have started to develop their own energy weapons, but... what to base them on? Zats? they take two shots to kill. Good if you want to stun someone but inconvenient in a shoot to kill situation. And hell, they aren't great stunners since if you accidentally get an enemy in a cross fire with them then they're dead too.
Ok then, so how about the plasma blasts all other Goa'uld weapons use? Well they're slow moving when compared to bullets and inaccurate.

Imean really I could come up with reasons like this forever... but here's a more simple reason. I said why move from what works originally; and that is exactly what a soldier will think.

Soldiers want weapons they know, that are reliable, that they know how to fix up in the field, that they know will kill. They won't want to be given some piece of technology that they aren't familiar with. They've trained their whole careers to use projectile weapons, so why disregard that training as soon as they get sent to the SGC by giving them an energy weapon they are completely unfamiliar with?

At the end of the day, it's about the people. Not about the weapons used.

[kharaa]

Because compared to alot of other weapons, the kinetic based Tau'ri weapons were suited for war. O'neill explains this in one of the episodes to the Jaffa, that their weapons were designed for terror and fear, not for war. They were effective against the jaffa, as their armor was probably ceremonial, and not for their defensive purposes. (It didn't deflect a staff blast, which means it probably wasn't constructed for that.). and against the base form replicators.

There is also the capibility for each weapon, the staff weapon was difficult to use accurately, and required a highly bizzare stance for precision shooting up to like what 25 meters away?

The effective firing range for the P90, is 200m, where the maximum range is 1800m(good luck hitting this though).

There was nothing to upgrade to really, other than a better performing caliber.



One of the things that bugs the crap out of me, is how they shoot, basically holding the weapon close to their chest, and 'hip firing' at things. You rarely see any of the SGC actually properly using their weapon. The complete lack of military tactics in SG1/ATL was frustrating.

[MaximRecoil]

that doesn't work. As i said, the region of spacetime is artificial. It's like your waterwheel analogy, except the river is part of what needs to reproduced.

No, you only need to replicate the device which generates and taps into the artificial region of subspace time. And you can replicate the water along with the water wheel, and doesn't fundamentally change anything (it would just take a lot longer for its energy output to exceed the energy required to replicate all that mass), because the source of energy is not the water itself, it is gravity which imparts motion to the water, and you can add to that the sun, which generates the energy which is responsible for the water cycle (and responsible for it remaining as water rather than ice), which allows the process to continue ~indefinitely.

With the water wheel, there are natural energy sources at work which you don't have to replicate; they are simply already there. Likewise, in the Stargate universe, there is a natural energy source inherent to spacetime which can be tapped into. The ZPM only needs to generate a "container" for a region of spacetime, isolating it from the rest of spacetime, rather than create the spacetime itself (the idea of actually creating spacetime doesn't even make sense; though manipulating it is certainly possible, given that a certain amount of manipulation of spacetime occurs naturally), which means you don't need as much energy to replicate a functional ZPM as the amount of energy you can obtain from it, because the energy you are getting from it doesn't come from the matter of the ZPM, it comes from the spacetime it taps into.

If they cared (or the writers did) to change that, they would also immediately toss aside those crap staffweapons, and deathgliders. And probably 2000 other things like using their fancy nanotech and robotics to do their stuff for them rather than rely on unschooled, incapable workers.

The Jaffa's existing weapons and armor were fine against the primitive people the Goa'uld had enslaved for thousands of years. When Earth became a major thorn in their side, it was obviously time to upgrade their armor, especially since bullets are so easy to armor against, even if limited to our own current technology. Implementing such an easy and obvious solution to a major problem in no way implies that they would have done anything else differently. The level of problem solving here isn't high at all; it is on par with a kid who straps some phonebooks to his shins when tending goal in a game of street hockey. If you see a kid do that, it doesn't imply that he is going to redesign his hockey stick or any other aspect of the game.

By the way, the staff weapons would have been fine with the simple addition of a set of sights. With the addition of a buttstock so you can stabilize it against your shoulder for a steadier aim, it would become an excellent weapon.

Getting back to the original point regarding projectile weaponry, the simple is why change what clearly works?

Because it shouldn't have "clearly worked", at least not very well, which creates a believability problem. which I described in my OP.

It's safe to say that Earth didn't have enough solid knowledge to build their own energy weapon for at least the first six seasons, and when they did build their own (that being the anubis soldier disrupters) they needed Tok'ra help.

It doesn't matter where they get the energy weapons or the know-how to build them, as long as they end up with them somehow.

Now as mentioned they are mainly used by recon teams, like SG-1. These are teams that could go into any kind of situation whenever they go through the gate but it seems like 90% of the time they aren't going to see combat. However a great deal of time they may meet an alien culture. In this regard we see the P-90's first benefit: It's nonthreatening. It's small, compact and isn't as imposing as other weapons that could be carried. People may recognize it as a weapon and that the teams are armed to defend themselves, but they won't see them as being so heavily armed to be an instant threat.

Whether or not its appearance is imposing/nonthreatening is a matter of opinion, and they see combat in most episodes. In any event, an energy weapon can be made to look like anything you want, including looking like a P90 if for whatever reason that particular appearance is deemed important.

The next benefit is directly connected, in that it is quite light and compact, meaning that you can get in all manner of situations with it and still run, jump and crawl through tight spaces.

Energy weapons can be as light and compact, or more so, e.g., "zat guns" and wrist weapons.

Third is the clip size. This is a little more obvious a benefit, but the key to this is that it makes for a great weapon for suppression fire.

I don't know what you mean by this. I assume that by "clip" you mean "magazine", but I'm not sure what you mean by "suppression fire". Do you mean "suppressive fire", or are you talking about firing with a silencer (sometimes called a "suppressor")? I don't know what either one has to do with magazine size though. By the way, the P90's magazine size is no different than it would be for any other firearm chambered for the same or similar sized cartridge, which has a magazine capacity of 50 rounds.

A recon team does not want to be in prolonged combat. SG-1 and other similar teams mainly consist of only four people so you don't want to be getting into a prolonged firefight if you can avoid it. If however you can get the enemy to keep their collective heads down then it might give you the precious seconds you need to get to the gate and dial earth. No energy weapon seen in the series can provide this kind of benefit, with the possible exception of the anubis wrist blasters.

4 people with P90s can't get the enemy to keep their heads down for long either, given that each one is empty in 3.33 seconds of full-auto fire (in reality that is; on the show, their ammunition supply often seems to magically regenerate, which gets back to the believability problem). Also, the wrist blasters aren't a possible exception, they are a definite exception. I already said in a previous post that those would be a good choice.

A more general advantage of projectile weapons in general, is that unlike all the energy weapons we've seen, you can't see projectile weapon fire. I mean yes in real life you have tracer rounds but we've never seen tracers in SG so... But this can be of great psychological importance. If you're travelling through a universe where people are use to seeing big, bright pew pew balls everywhere, they perhaps are not going to be quite so aware of the dangers of getting in the way of guns.

This is a valid point; one which I never thought of. It is not enough to tip the scales in favor of firearms over energy weapons however.

All the arguments about accuracy, stopping power and armour penetration are moot because at they end of the day we can see they work in the show. The heroes can shoot straight and clearly the ammo is more than enough to get thorough Jaffa and Wraith body protection.

First, firearms are not particularly effective against the Wraith, at least not always (just watch the first episode of Atlantis to see how poorly the firearms perform). But more important is the believability problem. For example, the writers could choose to arm the SG teams with slingshots and they could choose to portray them onscreen as being incredibly effective, but it creates a believability problem (i.e., it is not conducive to maintaining the audience's willing suspension of disbelief). It is like when a 5' 4" woman, weighing all of perhaps 110 lbs., utilizes her "Teyla Fu" to trounce several ~200 lb. men at once as if she's in a 1980s ninja movie or a Bruce Lee flick, and often violating laws of physics in the process. Sure, it "works" onscreen, but that doesn't make it believable in any way.

Now of course they could have started to develop their own energy weapons, but... what to base them on? Zats? they take two shots to kill. Good if you want to stun someone but inconvenient in a shoot to kill situation. And hell, they aren't great stunners since if you accidentally get an enemy in a cross fire with them then they're dead too.
Ok then, so how about the plasma blasts all other Goa'uld weapons use? Well they're slow moving when compared to bullets and inaccurate.

Ideally it would have a user-selectable "stun" and "kill" setting, like Ronon's gun has, but even Anubis' wrist weapon as-is in terms of function (you could put it in any type of housing you wanted; i.e., it doesn't have to remain as a wrist weapon) is vastly superior to firearms.

By the way, you can't judge velocity of the shots of energy by what you see onscreen, because that's a technical limitation of film/video. They can only make the special effect appear to move just so fast before you wouldn't be able to see it at all, because they are working with still images displayed at a rate of 24 frames per second (film) or 29.97 frames per second (NTSC video) to create the illusion of motion. Also, any energy weapon should have perfect inherent accuracy, unless you have an explanation for what would make the energy "projectile" deviate from a straight line path under normal conditions.

Imean really I could come up with reasons like this forever... but here's a more simple reason. I said why move from what works originally; and that is exactly what a soldier will think.

It only works as well as it does because the writers arbitrarily decided it should (see above). Also, with that kind of reasoning, everyone would still be using sticks and stones as weapons. Sticking with what works only makes sense when there is nothing out there that works significantly better.

Soldiers want weapons they know, that are reliable, that they know how to fix up in the field, that they know will kill. They won't want to be given some piece of technology that they aren't familiar with. They've trained their whole careers to use projectile weapons, so why disregard that training as soon as they get sent to the SGC by giving them an energy weapon they are completely unfamiliar with?

Again, with that kind of reasoning, we would still be using sticks and stones, or, if using firearms, we'd be using single-shot muzzle-loaders. There were no doubt people who resisted the change from muzzle-loaders to breech-loaders, and from single-shot to manually-operated repeaters, and from manually-operated repeaters to semi- and full-automatics, but that doesn't mean that the people who resisted such changes did so for good reason.

At the end of the day, it's about the people. Not about the weapons used.

As stated on the show many times, a main objective of the stargate program is to obtain new technology, particularly weapons. Sticking with firearms is at odds with this objective.

[MaximRecoil]

Because compared to alot of other weapons, the kinetic based Tau'ri weapons were suited for war. O'neill explains this in one of the episodes to the Jaffa, that their weapons were designed for terror and fear, not for war. They were effective against the jaffa, as their armor was probably ceremonial, and not for their defensive purposes. (It didn't deflect a staff blast, which means it probably wasn't constructed for that.). and against the base form replicators.

Firearms are perfectly suitable for war when the enemy is also using firearms or something inferior to firearms. When the enemy is using something superior to firearms and/or can easily armor against firearms, they aren't so suited to war.

As for their existing armor; the Jaffa's main job prior to Earth's stargate program was to enforce the will of the Goa'uld upon enslaved people who had primitive weapons (pre-firearms), and that type of armor is well-suited for that application. Simply upgrading their front torso armor to be made of e.g. "Trinium" would have solved most of their problems against firearms; i.e., it would prevent "center mass" shots from being effective.

There is also the capibility for each weapon, the staff weapon was difficult to use accurately, and required a highly bizzare stance for precision shooting up to like what 25 meters away?

The Jaffa staff weapon could easily be modified into something far more effective. All it needs is a set of sights and a buttstock.

The effective firing range for the P90, is 200m, where the maximum range is 1800m(good luck hitting this though).

The effective range of the staff weapon would be far beyond that; it is just a matter of being able to aim it properly.

There was nothing to upgrade to really, other than a better performing caliber.

Sure there was; Anubis' "super soldiers'" wrist weapon for example. But even the Jaffa staff weapons would have been an upgrade over firearms, if you place the "guts" in a rifle-style platform. That gives you a set of sights and the ergonomics needed to fire it accurately. They had access to Jaffa staff weapons from the very first episode of SG-1. Also, if you want more rapid fire than they are already capable of, it should be a matter of decreasing the power given to each shot, which would allow each shot to "charge" more quickly. They already have far more power in each shot than they need for anti-personnel use, given that they can take down high-flying "death gliders" with one shot (as seen in the first episode of SG-1), so reducing that power some in exchange for more rapid fire would be a wise move.

[kharaa]

Firearms are perfectly suitable for war when the enemy is also using firearms or something inferior to firearms. When the enemy is using something superior to firearms and/or can easily armor against firearms, they aren't so suited to war.

But canonically in stargate this hasn't been true. You may have a point in other sci-fi universes, but referring to stargate alone, it seems more often than not their low-tech kinetic based weapons have shown to be more effective than not. Considering the evolution of the Tau'ri technology, i'd expect that miniaturization would eventually put railgun technology in to infantry fighting weapons.

As for their existing armor; the Jaffa's main job prior to Earth's stargate program was to enforce the will of the Goa'uld upon enslaved people who had primitive weapons (pre-firearms), and that type of armor is well-suited for that application. Simply upgrading their front torso armor to be made of e.g. "Trinium" would have solved most of their problems against firearms; i.e., it would prevent "center mass" shots from being effective.



The Jaffa staff weapon could easily be modified into something far more effective. All it needs is a set of sights and a buttstock.

The Goa'uld are known to steal innovation, not create it. There was no signs of the Jaffa, or the Goa'uld making any progress on countering Tau'ri military tactics and technology. Though i'm not sure why this is even an argument... what the goa'uld could do is sorta irrelevent, the empire is effectively extinct.

The effective range of the staff weapon would be far beyond that; it is just a matter of being able to aim it properly.

source? or is this just speculation?

Sure there was; Anubis' "super soldiers'" wrist weapon for example. But even the Jaffa staff weapons would have been an upgrade over firearms, if you place the "guts" in a rifle-style platform. That gives you a set of sights and the ergonomics needed to fire it accurately. They had access to Jaffa staff weapons from the very first episode of SG-1. Also, if you want more rapid fire than they are already capable of, it should be a matter of decreasing the power given to each shot, which would allow each shot to "charge" more quickly. They already have far more power in each shot than they need for anti-personnel use, given that they can take down high-flying "death gliders" with one shot (as seen in the first episode of SG-1), so reducing that power some in exchange for more rapid fire would be a wise move.

I disagree with the bolded statement.

Again, canonically they state that the tau'ri weapons are superior to the Jaffa weapons; for the reasons i listed above. The Jaffa's weapons were designed for terror, their entire culture revolves around this weapon and the martial arts used with it. They show one of the best sharp shooters the Jaffa had to offer being beat out by Sam Carter with a P90 SMG.

[MaximRecoil]

But canonically in stargate this hasn't been true. You may have a point in other sci-fi universes, but referring to stargate alone, it seems more often than not their low-tech kinetic based weapons have shown to be more effective than not.

Thus the believability issue, as I described in my OP, and elaborated on in my reply to P-90_177.

Considering the evolution of the Tau'ri technology, i'd expect that miniaturization would eventually put railgun technology in to infantry fighting weapons.

Railguns would be far better than firearms. Because of the extreme velocities possible, the projectiles can be very small (like a BB or smaller), yet still highly effective, and because the projectiles can be so small and don't need to be in cartridge form, you can carry hundreds or thousands of them easily. Also, because of their extreme kinetic energy, they would be a lot harder to effectively armor against. They would also be capable of extremely rapid fire, more so than any conventional firearm, because they don't need to cycle the action to eject an empty shell after firing, though this wouldn't be needed or even advisable in most situations (it would just exacerbate the "spray & pray" problem).

The Goa'uld are known to steal innovation, not create it.

They do both. Ba'al was pretty clever with gate dialing programs for example. Sure, he got the idea from Carter and Whatshisname's virus, but he was able to innovate on top of that to a level beyond the understanding of anyone at the SGC, or the Tok'ra for that matter, which is why they needed his help in that area twice.

There was no signs of the Jaffa, or the Goa'uld making any progress on countering Tau'ri military tactics and technology.

Which creates a believability issue, because even a child can come up with the idea of more effective armor.

Though i'm not sure why this is even an argument... what the goa'uld could do is sorta irrelevent, the empire is effectively extinct.

Owed in no small part to how easily their Jaffa were killed with relatively primitive weapons (firearms), which isn't believable, which is a main point of this thread.

source? or is this just speculation?

You can see how powerful the staff weapons are, for example, taking down a "death glider" with one shot in the first SG-1 episode (and possibly in other episodes). Those gliders were way more than 200 meters away (see this screenshot; that shot that took down the glider came from at least a mile away), and the shot still had enough power to take it down, so it follows that the effective range is much greater, especially against a person.

I disagree with the bolded statement.

Here's the part that you forgot to bold:

"But even the Jaffa staff weapons would have been an upgrade over firearms, if you place the 'guts' in a rifle-style platform."

Again, canonically they state that the tau'ri weapons are superior to the Jaffa weapons; for the reasons i listed above. The Jaffa's weapons were designed for terror, their entire culture revolves around this weapon and the martial arts used with it. They show one of the best sharp shooters the Jaffa had to offer being beat out by Sam Carter with a P90 SMG.

That's only because the platform of the staff weapon isn't conducive to well-aimed shots (a problem which is easily fixed by placing the "guts" of a staff weapon into a rifle-style platform, as I've already said).

By the way, Carter cutting that log in half with a P90 was utterly absurd; that was pure TV magic. The P90's 5.7x28mm cartridge doesn't have nearly enough power to do that in reality. Also, one of the Jaffa correctly pointed out one of the main disadvantages of firearms, i.e., they quickly run dry, and even more quickly in reality than is typically portrayed on TV (3.33 seconds of sustained full-auto fire for a P90).