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    "It fails as drama, science fiction and is hopelessly derivative."

    G'day,

    Disclaimer - No offense intended by that evidently vile quote in the subject line...

    Until today, I had never watched an episode of Babylon 5. I remember hearing about the show when I was in junior high (which makes sense - that's when it started), however it never aired on the 1 commercial channel in the town I was living in at the time (and cable was several years away), and whilst I could have rented the videos from Video 2000, I guess I just opted for the familiar instead, sticking to the ST:TNG titles. As such, B5 has been relegated to the faction of sci-fi tv shows that I've never watched... (along with Sliders, for example, which could well be next on my list to catch up on.)

    Given that this series started 20 years ago, I'm sure I'm not about to make any astounding new observations, but hell, isn't that what the Net is for? Thanks to the occasional dig at B5 by Sheldon, I just felt it was finally time that I gave the show a chance... as I've not much else sci-fi on the calendar at the moment. As such, I sat down and watched Midnight on the Firing Line. (And, I've just read that's possibly not the "best" way to start watching the show... but it's done now.)

    When I told my wife, who watched only by osmosis, that the episode was from the same era as STS9, her comment was - "Oh, I thought it was from the 70's!". I'll admit that was a bit harsh, however as I watched, I did feel like I was watching something comparable to 1987's ST:TNG:Encounter at Farpoint, rather than 1993's STS9:Emissary. Now, I accept that DS9 had a lot going for it over B5 - it was basically the continuation of an existing successful show, borrowing much from its heritage in terms of bolstering its production values, it had double B5's budget, and it had Dax... But as some of those reading this know, I love Doctor Who, so - I can see beyond the superficial - honest!

    I don't mind coming into a story part way through, and learning the backstory as I go... but in this case, I really felt conflicted about who I was meant to be siding with... Do I feel for Londo/'s people, who were just attacked, or for G'Kar's people, who were previously attacked by Londo's people... (Is that the intent - to show that War is not always a simple affair) Personally, I think I'd rather have had the start of the episode introduce the station, and its people, particularly Londo and G'Kar, then have the attack...

    Anyways, so the action sequences were... quite lame. Good CGI (with some models??), but not good enough to actually suspend your belief that you're watching CGI... again unlike DS9 which soon thereafter were producing some pretty amazing battle sequences all in CGI... The acting was also fairly mediocre, with only (luckily) the main players, Londo, G'Kar and Sinclair. I know DS9 had its weak links (ie Bashir), but I really did feel at times like I was watching something from film school... admittedly with a much better budget than film school...

    Oh, and - talking of film school - something I was taught was to make sure you thought about sound... 100% of this story took place on spaceships/stations... yet a lot of the time the background is filled with silence... I should be hearing the hum of engines/life support etc etc. Pretty sure even Doctor Who's Four to Doomsday got that right.

    Would I have watched another episode of B5 if it were 1994 and my local network was showing it... Probably, but only 1 more... Will I go to the effort now, to watch another episode... No. I think I'll side with Sheldon on this one.

    cheers,

    cosmic
    back on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@The-Cosmic-Hobo
    "How Doomsday Should Have Ended!" • "Bigger on the Inside?" • "The Doctor Falls - With Hartnell!"
    "The War Games - In 10 Minutes" • "Announcement of Jon Pertwee's death" •
    and lots more!

    #2
    You started watching with Midnight on the firing line didn't you?

    That's not technically the start of the show. There's also a pilot movie called "The Gathering"... it's... awful... no I mean really really awful. But it does fill you in on a bit more of the history .

    As for the rest, just stick with it. Certainly you need to get past season 1. Season 1 is very much a hit or miss affair. Plus there some episodes that are VERY important to the arc.

    Likewise the CGI improves over time too. Keep in mind that B5 was the first show ever to use animation the way they did so what you're watching is a piece of television and movie history and it does get better. Plus I tended to appreciate it for its own art since there is such an originality to all the designs in B5.

    As for the characters... I'm not going to give much away... Only to say that yes, Babylon 5 likes to be occasionally a little ambiguous when it comes to Londo and G'Kar... you'll soon figure out what they're all about though. And you'll discover a wealth of brilliant characters besides.

    Keep us apprised Cosmic.
    Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

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      #3
      S9 i see what you did there, cus DS9 was great (we'll later seasons atleast)
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        #4
        I also forgot to mention, DS9 may have Dax but B5 has Ivanova... an equally alluring, if somewhat terrifying prospect.
        Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

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          #5


          At this point, you're as appraised as you'll be, as I don't think I'll try any more... As much as I love old crappy tv, this one just didn't get the vibe of other crappy shows... I mean - even the mid-season cancellation filler, Otherworld, that was cancelled after a dozen eps, at least made me want to watch beyond the first episode.

          That all said... as I did start with Midnight, and not the actual first instalment, I may consider watching The Gathering, just to give it one last go, as even though it may be crappppy, I'm interested to see how the franchise was properly introduced to the world... and maybe it will inspire me to watch a bit more...

          Not high on my list though... After all, I just found the bootleg copies of YCDTOTV! Woot.

          --

          mr_kennedy, DS9 looked very schmick. Its sets were schmick. Its SFX were schmick. It was a schmick show. I mean - I never, for example, sat watching an episode of DS9, and thought to myself - gee, I bet I could duck down to Spotlight and buy those pillows adorning the very 1990's sofa found in Londo's quarters... Yes, an extra $800,000 per episode certainly helps to create a sofa and pillows from scratch rather than buying one from a shop, but it was just lots of little things like that which took me out of the story...
          Last edited by cosmichobo; 29 March 2014, 06:11 AM.
          back on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@The-Cosmic-Hobo
          "How Doomsday Should Have Ended!" • "Bigger on the Inside?" • "The Doctor Falls - With Hartnell!"
          "The War Games - In 10 Minutes" • "Announcement of Jon Pertwee's death" •
          and lots more!

          Comment


            #6
            I recommend Skipping season 1 atleast until the end of the season it is fairly unimportant to the story, which starts revving up in season 2 much like s9 i might add (although that took a little longer)

            Probably up until Babylon Squared (although the 2 parter prior to it is pretty good too) from A voice in the Wilderness (pts 1 & 2) from season 1 would be vital to season 2 and onwards

            Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post
            I also forgot to mention, DS9 may have Dax but B5 has Ivanova... an equally alluring, if somewhat terrifying prospect.
            Ivanova is always right, Ivanova is god
            Last edited by mr_kennedy; 29 March 2014, 06:16 AM.
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              #7
              Originally posted by cosmichobo View Post


              At this point, you're as appraised as you'll be, as I don't think I'll try any more... As much as I love old crappy tv, this one just didn't get the vibe of other crappy shows... I mean - even the mid-season cancellation filler, Otherworld, that was cancelled after a dozen eps, at least made me want to watch beyond the first episode.

              That all said... as I did start with Midnight, and not the actual first instalment, I may consider watching The Gathering, just to give it one last go, as even though it may be crappppy, I'm interested to see how the franchise was properly introduced to the world... and maybe it will inspire me to watch a bit more...

              Not high on my list though... After all, I just found the bootleg copies of YCDTOTV! Woot.

              --

              mr_kennedy, DS9 looked very schmick. Its sets were schmick. Its SFX were schmick. It was a schmick show. I mean - I never, for example, sat watching an episode of DS9, and thought to myself - gee, I bet I could duck down to Spotlight and buy those pillows adorning the very 1990's sofa found in Londo's quarters... Yes, an extra $800,000 per episode certainly helps to create a sofa and pillows from scratch rather than buying one from a shop, but it was just lots of little things like that which took me out of the story...
              Hmmm... just thinking that if we want you to give it a proper try then The Gathering might not be the way to do it... like I said, it's pretty awful...

              Tell you what, watching the Gathering and one from later in the first season called Babylon 4. It's out of order but it's probably one of the best from the first season (and yet I can not emphasize enough how much better the show as a whole gets)
              Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

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                #8
                Originally posted by cosmichobo View Post

                Anyways, so the action sequences were... quite lame. Good CGI (with some models??), but not good enough to actually suspend your belief that you're watching CGI... again unlike DS9 which soon thereafter were producing some pretty amazing battle sequences all in CGI... The acting was also fairly mediocre, with only (luckily) the main players, Londo, G'Kar and Sinclair. I know DS9 had its weak links (ie Bashir), but I really did feel at times like I was watching something from film
                DS9 use models for most of its space scenes combine, DS9 was a physical model itself , only in the later seasons did they switch to CGI. An in the of B5 they did dozens of different space battle scenes, DS9 did them rarely, there wasn't really one in the first season to write home about or the second if memory serve me right. An DS9 tended to reuse a lot of its CGI, B5 didn't at least not as notably as DS9 did. Adding to that the shear number of models those CGI guys for B5, way more than DS9 which again reuse a lot its designs from episode to episode and from STNG.

                I like both B5 in my opinion had the lead in the CGI department.
                Last edited by knowles2; 29 March 2014, 11:14 AM.

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                  #9
                  Actually I am almost 100% sure you're right. Not a single cgi scene was reused, except maybe the scenes where the starfuries launch from the cobra bays.
                  Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post
                    Actually I am almost 100% sure you're right. Not a single cgi scene was reused, except maybe the scenes where the starfuries launch from the cobra bays.
                    And establishing/time-passing shots of the station. A lot of those shots were re-used, especially during the first two seasons.

                    ==============

                    Cosmic:

                    You compared the first episode (of the regular series) of B5 to the first episode of TNG. How do later TNG episodes compare to those earlier episodes to you?
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                      #11
                      B5 is one of my favorite shows, and one reason for that is that it's so arc based. There are stand-alone episodes too, but most of those have some main plot development too, even if it's just a throwaway line that sets up events that may happen 3 seasons later. So the show does reward the faithful viewer.

                      There has even been some talk of redoing the CGI and upgrading the show to blu-ray. Possible, since the show was shot on film rather than video, so all the live action sequences would upgrade beautifully.

                      That said, Commander Sinclair is a bit of a stick in the mud. The show improves as you get to know the characters and particularly after Sheridan's arrival.

                      The show goes to great lengths to show that the world is gray rather than black or white. Nobody is quite as they appear at first.
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                        #12
                        B5 is a little like Marmite in my opinion. You either love it or hate it.

                        Maneth is correct in saying that it shows the world as grey rather than black or white.
                        It does improve as the seasons unfold. And there are some episodes that really stand out.

                        JMS did a good job. He did write a lot of the episodes.

                        Spoiler:
                        He even appears in the last episode. He is the tech who switches the station off
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                          #13
                          Babylon 5 is the best sci fi show of all times... without a doubt. The first season is not good at all but after that it is just too damn good.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by destiny khan View Post
                            Babylon 5 is the best sci fi show of all times... without a doubt. The first season is not good at all but after that it is just too damn good.
                            neither is the last season. 2nd, 3rd and 4th are good through.

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                              #15
                              Babylon 5 is one of my favorite TV shows. I agree with what everyone else here is saying. The first season is the weakest season, though there are a few good episodes. The show gets better in the second season, and the cgi gets better as the show goes on.

                              I've seen some people suggest that the movie "In the Beginning" might be a good place for new viewers to start. It might spoil a few things, but it gives the backstory and it could also give you an idea of what the show becomes without giving away too much(since it is mostly backstory).
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