Morally questionable actions of the Stargate Atlantis Expedition

[WraithTech]

It's why there's still no peace deal between Israel and Palestine.

Sad, but true. To Todd's credit, after escaping the Genii cell with John, Todd did not orchestrate a retaliation against Kolya. He could have carpet bombed that hideout or hired mercenaries to go after Kolya. But, just as SGC can't control every human's every action, including in John's team, not every Wraith can be controlled either.

If one takes the premise there can never be peace so long as both groups occupy the same space (not saying I do or don't, just working with the scenario), what about if the Wraith in SM's scenario move to another galaxy and not tell anyone where they went, to try to prevent being followed? Not all of them might want to move away, but, being no longer tied to humans, they would have that option.

[DarkenLycht]

I am not sure moving away would help. There could still be individuals who disagree and that could lead to either Wraith coming back or humans searching them out to make sure they are no longer a threat

The team has been known to work things around mainly to their benefit, up to that point even that they do things which they criticize others for. A good example for that is when Teyla explains to Michael that Wraith are bad because they kill and show no compassion...when they actually kill too and force Michael to be someone else which is not showing much compassion either

One thing the Atlantis team never considered is finding a way to prevent those who are being fed on to age, then they would not die, besides, not all humans who are being fed on do, even age old Sheppard would have survived likely.

I know they also worked on a treatment but I cannot shake the feeling they are not really trying with all their heart, because to them it is enough if Wraiths do not feed on them anymore

[Xaeden]

Sad, but true. To Todd's credit, after escaping the Genii cell with John, Todd did not orchestrate a retaliation against Kolya. He could have carpet bombed that hideout or hired mercenaries to go after Kolya. But, just as SGC can't control every human's every action, including in John's team, not every Wraith can be controlled either.

What makes you think he didn't? Kolya survived because he fled through the Stargate at the end of the episode. Just before Koyla walks through the gate, Sheppard yells at him for running. My assumption was always that the darts took that facility out, killing anyone Kolya left behind. The Wraith are not ones to leave dangerous technologically advanced humans alive.

If one takes the premise there can never be peace so long as both groups occupy the same space (not saying I do or don't, just working with the scenario), what about if the Wraith in SM's scenario move to another galaxy and not tell anyone where they went, to try to prevent being followed? Not all of them might want to move away, but, being no longer tied to humans, they would have that option.

Well, if they figure out how to do that on their own and don't tell anyone there's little that can be done about it. I can see Earth being worried about it because those Wraith could then breed uncontrollably and decide, at some point in the future, that they want to engage in empire building across galaxies, leading to their return. But it's not like they have the resources to send ships to every nearby galaxy to track them down.

As for living together, my position is that it's not possible unless the power dynamic switches in favor of Earth. If Earth has 100 F-304s, beats the entire Wraith fleet, and spares them by giving them the virus, an agreement might work because then Earth would have superior military power and can monitor the Wraith to make sure they are not trying to grow into a threat again. If they do try that, Earth would have the resources to intervene militarily and try to beat the Wraith back into submission. If the Wraith have little power to respond to hostile human aggression and little power to act on their own hostile intents, there's an opening for attitudes on both sides to change over time. Earth, however, would have to be willing to not just monitor the Wraith long term, but also offer them protection, and that's not something the Wraith are going to happy about.

As long as the Wraith have access to the Stargate they can spread and grow ships in secret, and they may feel that they need to try to do that to ensure their survival. Not that they would know this exact reference, but to do otherwise would risk becoming the Carthaginians who signed a treaty with the Romans at the end of the Second Punic War, ceding power over all border disputes to the Romans and restricting their fleet to only 10 ships. They didn't like that first part because Rome would regularly favor Numidia (a Roman ally) in border disputes, and there's a risk that Earth would similarly favor humans if they had the Wraith at their mercy, particularly given the pressure they would face from native Pegasus humans to do so.

To make a long story short, the Carthaginians tried to declare an end to all the terms of the treaty when they made their last agreed upon 50 year silver payment, but the Romans were having none of that and decided to put an end to their autonomy altogether. The Romans justified this by arguing that the Carthaginians broke the treaty and it's not actually as simple as that (the Romans also had an interest in incorporating those lands into their empire and since they were no longer receiving yearly payments, they were no longer motivated to leave them be), but for the Wraith in my scenario there are all sorts of reasons to believe that depending on Earth to keep them security is not a good idea. That's unfortunate because it could easily lead to renewed hostilities before there has been enough time for attitudes to change enough for Earth to allow the Wraith full autonomy.*

*Attitudes on the Wraith side are also going to be hard to change if they remain immortal after losing their ability to feed on humans as generational change wouldn't work for them like it does for us.

[WraithTech]

I know they also worked on a treatment but I cannot shake the feeling they are not really trying with all their heart, because to them it is enough if Wraiths do not feed on them anymore

That is another morally questionable thing: SGC can send a slew of military personnel and weapons of all kinds, even fully-staffed starships, yet so few scientists. SGC is a global organization. So, why is only *one* US doctor working with Todd and his delegation on such an important project? Why are there not dozens of doctors and scientists from all over the world? Jennifer is smart, but her ideas are tunnel-visioned in on what Carson started and Michael continued, with no other ideas being discussed with the Wraith too. Even if only 3 Wraith are allowed on the Daedalus, others could call in from Todd's hive via video conference, along with a room full of dozens of humans too. Tie-in writers and fanfic writers are more numerous and harder at work generating solutions than SGC seemed to be, such as the example you mentioned.

What makes you think he didn't?

Because it wasn’t in the show. Simple culls notwithstanding, I can’t recall anything being said of any Wraith having any retribution on any Genii (in spite of how Todd saw videocam equipment, tunnels which suggest excavating machinery, cement pouring, and metal foundry).

Kolya survived because he fled through the Stargate at the end of the episode.

That is why I mentioned the idea of a hired mercenary. Someone to track Kolya, the way Nabel Golan tried to ambush the team for Michael’s behalf.

would have to be willing to not just monitor the Wraith long term, but also offer them protection, and that's not something the Wraith are going to happy about.

Some SG1 fans have argued that it is morally questionable for SGC to police other galaxies. That also applies to Pegasus. Although, who else would step up to arbitrate at this point?

Another consideration: does SGC have the capability? They are already policing the Milky Way. Could they protect the Wraith if, say, the rogue Asgard or else anyone attacks, seeking to conduct medical experiments on the Wraith in a quest of immortality?

Attitudes on the Wraith side are also going to be hard to change if they remain immortal after losing their ability to feed on humans as generational change wouldn't work for them like it does for us.

I’ve thought about that because it has proven to be an issue in the past when Todd mistakenly blamed the New Lanteans after the Pegasus Asgard reactivated the Attero device. A few human generations later, the stories will only be distant history, but, for Wraith, actual memories of war and loss.

[Chaka-Z0]

Another consideration: does SGC have the capability? They are already policing the Milky Way. Could they protect the Wraith if, say, the rogue Asgard or else anyone attacks, seeking to conduct medical experiments on the Wraith in a quest of immortality?

That would be a definite no, and I would also think that the Wraiths would be virulently opposed to fall under the humans ''protection''. If anything, they wouldn't need protecting and mind their own business in their little corner of the Pegasus Galaxy. Would you agree to be protected by cows and goats? That's what humans have been / are to Wraiths.

To make a long story short, the Carthaginians tried to declare an end to all the terms of the treaty when they made their last agreed upon 50 year silver payment, but the Romans were having none of that and decided to put an end to their autonomy altogether.

Right on point. I believe that any empire in whatever shape or form, is doomed to fail. There will always be some who will abuse their position of authority resulting in unhappy factions emerging that will do whatever it takes to overthrow the regime. The Goths had been given refuge in Rome when the Huns raided left and right, but were treated like animals by their saviors. Fathers and mothers were literally selling their children for dog meat. Hunger and mistreatment from the authorities, which were unable to cope with the size of the refuge crisis, led them to revolt against their saviors (the siege of Adrianople).

Even if only 3 Wraith are allowed on the Daedalus, others could call in from Todd's hive via video conference, along with a room full of dozens of humans too.

Todd =/= the voice of all Wraith. He is just one individual.

So far, Todd has been the only Wraith individual that the New Lanteans had significant success with. Not to mention he had been playing humans since the beginning in accord to his personal agenda and slowly schemed his way up the Wraith power ladder. Any good intentions is out of the window. To quote Sheppard, ''I feel like I have a live grenade in my pocket every time you're implicated''.

As show in late season 5, the humans trust is completely gone and no longer let even Todd roam freely on the ship nor stay on the bridge. Understandably so, considering the *stun-sticks* technology that can literally render the crew K.O. in a few seconds. A wraith on board is too big of a security risk, therefore they would need constant video communication to work on science projects which is definitely not ideal.

For the sake of argumentation, let's say the new drug is developed and all Wraiths no longer need to feed on humans. I think it's ludicrous to assume that any other Wraith scientist would agree to work on any other joint project unless there's something in it for them, just Like Todd. What would we have to offer them? Peace? Why would they want peace? Our objectives are simply not aligned with theirs. You know how difficult it is for old people to change their mind about a given topic, even when faced with rational, logical arguments. Now transgress that to beings that have lived in the same fashion for 10 thousand years, good luck trying to change their mindset.

As for the Pegasus Natives, they might hold a little grudge don't you think? They have been segregated constantly throughout their whole history, I can see how most of them would never agree to peace and rebel on every occasion they get.

So here's the conundrum: Installing peace in a galaxy where both sides have no interest for it while not being the military superpower, which isn't really convincing.

[AleksisMi]

on a sidenote i really want to watch more stargate atlantis... lol to bad they do not just reboot stargate as sg1 atlantis

[Chaka-Z0]

on a sidenote i really want to watch more stargate atlantis... lol to bad they do not just reboot stargate as sg1 atlantis

SG1 Atlantis - Universe

[AleksisMi]

heres a what if question that could really fix the wraithe issue, what if ra was in a wraithe body

[WraithTech]

What would we have to offer them? Peace?

Freedom. So long as they need human lifeforce or take the retrovirus and continue to attack humans for no reason, they are shackled to humans.

Re: my out-of-context juxtaposed quotes: I still stand by them. Jennifer is only one individual and Todd is only one individual, which is why I said his whole hive, not just him, and not just Jennifer. If the writers can bring in a slew of extras as townsfolk to adore Lucius Lavin, some more human scientists and Todd's scientists, even with their backs shown to the screen to cut down on cost of facial prosthetics, should be within production budget.

In spite of everything that has happened in Pegasus, I am still optimistic for all parties, especially in John and Todd's leadership and sales skills. John knows how to speak in terms of value to the Wraith and Todd keeps attracting followers. The two of them were able to get several hives to join the Wraith-human alliance in the battle against the Asurans. That is salesmanship gold, Cialdini pre-suasion style, the foot-in-the-door technique, that can be leveraged when selling the benefits of change.

Edit/Addition: That said, I understand we don't all see eye-to-eye about how events will unfold in the galaxy. We all have our own opinions and can agree to disagree-- maybe even have AUs where some outcomes work better than others. The thread has wound down for me now, but thanks again to SM for the scenario.

[Xaeden]

Because it wasn’t in the show. Simple culls notwithstanding, I can’t recall anything being said of any Wraith having any retribution on any Genii (in spite of how Todd saw videocam equipment, tunnels which suggest excavating machinery, cement pouring, and metal foundry).

Sure, it was not shown/discussed, but it's implied. It has repeatedly been established that the Wraith do not abide technologically advanced humans to live, there were darts swarming all over the place, and Koyla had to escape to survive. If it wasn't shown that he escaped through the Stargate it would've had to have been explained how he survived when he next appear because his death would have been assumed.

This is the type of thing that writers don't feel necessary to hammer home. If, on the other hand, their intention was for Todd to act in an uncharacteristic way and spare the technologically capable, hostile humans who kidnapped him, that is something they would feel they have to address because they would know that audiences would otherwise not know that's what was supposed to be happening.

Some SG1 fans have argued that it is morally questionable for SGC to police other galaxies. That also applies to Pegasus. Although, who else would step up to arbitrate at this point?

Another consideration: does SGC have the capability? They are already policing the Milky Way. Could they protect the Wraith if, say, the rogue Asgard or else anyone attacks, seeking to conduct medical experiments on the Wraith in a quest of immortality?

I don't disagree. I was not arguing a moral position, merely putting forward a hypothetical scenario in which a peace treaty might be possible. And you're correct that they do not have the capability to do that, which is why my scenario also assumed that had at some point changed (that's what the 100 F-304 bit was about).

My overarching point is that there is no easy solution here. If they were human foes it would be a completely different matter. They would have the same practical restrictions when it came to birth rates and technological production. They also wouldn't be thousand + year old cultural and instinctive predators with an inclination to channel their sadism in other ways if their decency on humans as cattle went away. Also, applying my described scenario to humans is a really bad thing that would lead to increased hostilities over time and it disregards that we know that it's quite possible to help economically uplift your enemy so that they have a stable state, free of insurgencies and disincentived to engage in large, damaging wars.

Applying it to the Wraith is equally bad and has the all the risks/consequences I described in my earlier post. If, however, one wants to give them the revised retro virus and work out a peace treaty the only solutions are blindly trusting the Wraith not to conquer and destroy, unchecked or use military might to restrict their freedoms. Neither option is very good and both can easily lead to the same end.

[WraithTech]

Sure, it was not shown/discussed, but it's implied.

I've seen a number of threads on here of implied vs. on-screen-only to know these discussions never come to a close. We will each have to have our own opinions.

My overarching point is that there is no easy solution here.

I understand and agree there are risks. I don't have anything further to add.

Thank you for your discussion of weighing the potential pros and cons for all parties in the tangled Pegasus setting.

[DarkenLycht]

I agree that the solution will not be easily found but if some Wraith are willing to work with the Atlantis' team's people and they can find an agreeable solution, I am sure they could convince enough others. humans and Wraiths alike to accept the solution
I would assume no one really likes being chased and killed, neither Wraiths nor humans, the hardest in this however is I guess to find something that both sides can live with without one of them feeling to have to give up more than the other