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    What is the REAL Matrix? How far down the rabbit hole are we willing to go?

    The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work… when you go to church… when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. … That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind. - Morpheus, The Matrix



    We've been lied to all our lives, but we need to wake up and learn the truth.

    There are a lot of potential things I'd like to discuss in this thread, so I hope people will seriously consider what is going on all around us, all over the world, not just in the U.S.

    I'd like to discuss the political and economic problems we are facing, including potential alternatives to change things. I've been looking into the Zeitgeist Movement, The Venus Project, the Resource Based Economy, and other things. Politically, I'm probably closest to Libertarians at this point. I'm completely fed up with both the Republicans and Democrats and have very little faith in ANY of this country's government institutions.

    I'd like to discuss the merits of these various things, and if nothing else open people up to the real enemies we are facing, not just in America, but all over the world. I don't know about you, but I personally worry more about my own government than I do any terrorist organizations. If that isn't reason to be concerned about the state of things, I don't know what is...
    Last edited by Seastallion; 23 July 2013, 12:11 AM.
    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
    Spoiler:

    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

    Feel free to pass the green..!

    My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
    My Blog @ http://myhatsize.blogspot.com
    Amazing Literary Works of Fel... http://sennadar.com/wp/

    Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

    #2
    Fighting the normalcy bias is like swimming against a rip tide. Good luck with that. The raw, uncensored truth of life is not something the average person is equipped to deal with.
    sigpic

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Kali View Post
      Fighting the normalcy bias is like swimming against a rip tide. Good luck with that. The raw, uncensored truth of life is not something the average person is equipped to deal with.
      That normalcy IS the lie. What is and has been done to us is NOT normal. My hope in talking about such things here, is that people who are fans of sci-fi are generally not as closed off to new or different paradigms. In addition, the raw uncensored truth of life, is that it SUCKS. Most people will easily realize that, it is only in how they choose to respond to it, that they mostly differ. I've been learning a lot of new things recently myself, and I'd like to discuss those things with others.

      Unfortunately, I don't get out as much as some people, so I am often limited to such discussions over the internet. Still, I think these things are important enough to try and talk about. I hope people have been watching the video above, as it is not only entertaining, but also highly educational.

      Here is another relatively short film (about 30 minutes), that is also very interesting.



      I hope people will join the conversation.
      The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
      Spoiler:

      To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
      http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

      Feel free to pass the green..!

      My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
      My Blog @ http://myhatsize.blogspot.com
      Amazing Literary Works of Fel... http://sennadar.com/wp/

      Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

      Comment


        #4
        I suspect that most people aren't willing to invest hours of their time to watch videos before they can join in the discussion. I certainly don't have the time to do that...
        sigpic

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by maneth View Post
          I suspect that most people aren't willing to invest hours of their time to watch videos before they can join in the discussion. I certainly don't have the time to do that...
          No one has to. The two films I've shared so far are only a half hour in length themselves. The first one alone would be enough to enter the discussion if someone isn't already aware of the problems we face. The second one is a very brief introduction to the Resource Based Economy idea. Neither are overly long, but do impart a lot of information in a compact manner. If people are unwilling to move on the primary issue at stake, then nothing will change until the collapse of the system forces a change. That would result in many deaths, and probably WWIII. Or at the very least, the next American Revolution. Personally, I'd prefer a Constitutional Convention to a civil war or something like it.

          Just some interesting quotes from our Founding Fathers...

          "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816.

          "It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." - Benjamin Franklin

          "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

          "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too a small degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

          "If people let government decide which foods they eat and medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

          Also by the U.S. President that signed in the Federal Reserve...

          "A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men ... [W]e have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men." - Woodrow Wilson

          "Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

          The two above quotes are rather ironic given that it was Woodrow Wilson himself who allowed the Bankers to take over the U.S. by bringing in the Federal Reserve Act, among other things. Both quotes above are from his writings in, "The New Freedom: A Call for the Emancipation of the Generous Energies of a People". Supposedly (according to pro Woodrow Wilson sources), the quotes were referring to Monopolies rather than the Federal Reserve, but there is no doubt they are still applicable regardless of the context.

          A quote by perhaps the biggest banking family of all time...

          "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild

          This clip below is from Judge Napolitano's former show with Fox Business News. I'm almost amazed they let him air this segment, but perhaps it part of the reason why the Judge no longer has his show. The Judge still works as a legal consultant for Fox News, but clearly his stock within the Corporation went down, as he is a strong Constitutionalist.

          The segment explains the first film I posted somewhat, and explains why it is important for people to see it.

          The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
          Spoiler:

          To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

          Feel free to pass the green..!

          My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
          My Blog @ http://myhatsize.blogspot.com
          Amazing Literary Works of Fel... http://sennadar.com/wp/

          Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

          Comment


            #6
            Yeah, well, as long as the discussion doesn't degrade into the worship of libertarianism. I'm from Scandinavia, and take things like health insurance for all, free school lunches and fairly big government for granted. In fact, I wouldn't want it any other way.
            sigpic

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Seastallion View Post
              Politically, I'm probably closest to Libertarians at this point
              that's something of a blanket term. Pinochet also was a libertarian - extreme libertarian - in a manner of speaking

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by maneth View Post
                Yeah, well, as long as the discussion doesn't degrade into the worship of libertarianism. I'm from Scandinavia, and take things like health insurance for all, free school lunches and fairly big government for granted. In fact, I wouldn't want it any other way.
                In a RBE, those things would be provided freely. There would actually be VERY little government at all, as most of the problems in society would be solved using technology. Building, Farming, Manufacturing, Administration, etc. Humans would still play a part, but it would be minimized as much as possible by using technological innovation where ever it can possibly be used. If you are drunk from a party and you need to go home, no problem. You just get in your car and tell it to take you home, and it drives itself. No DUI worries. The car could also have sensor technologies that could tell if you were drunk, and not allow you to drive manually. There are other such examples. For more specific details, I'd refer you thevenusproject.com FAQ.

                Here is a copy of another post in the Political Discussion Thread on this topic...

                There are plenty of details at the thevenusproject.com FAQ, but I'll try to do my best to explain briefly here. FIRST, it must be understood, that a RBE wouldn't JUST be about changing the economic paradigm, but also peoples attitudes about why they do things. People wouldn't do things for monetary gain, they would do them to better themselves and the rest of humanity. Sound like Picard from Star Trek: First Contact? Well it should, because that is the goal of such an economic paradigm. Nothing less than a revolution in the human life experience.

                In a functional Resource Based Economy, there would be very little labor to begin with, beyond what people WANT to do. The reward would be not only helping themselves, but also the rest of society. There would be NO MONEY, and everyone's basic needs would be provided for. This would be accomplished by using technological automation and innovation in every conceivable situation, making the need for human labor less and less. Advanced computer systems would also keep track of material resources and the best means to use them in a sustainable way. Things like cars would be kept as communal property accessible at any time, no different than checking a book from the library. Cars would be self-driving, so if you needed one, it could drive itself to your home as needed, then you could go to your destination. Things like Mag-Lev bullet trains would be increasingly utilized to move people and goods within cities and between cities, in a relatively short time. Such a train could go from New York to L.A. in about a half hour (when used in conjunction with vacuum tubes), so you could live wherever you wanted and commute (or tele-commute) if needed. It has been calculated by some that by using all the technological innovation at our disposal, we could lower the necessary human labor to about 2 hours per day per human.

                This would allow humans to follow whatever path they chose without the worry of basic necessities. Education would have no costs, so anyone could be and do whatever they wanted. Scientist, Musician, Inventor, Programmer, Bartender, Waiter, Architect, or whatever. There would be no money, to divide people into economic classes. Education, Health Care, and other services would be provided as basic needs. People would still own personal things, but many others would be placed into a communal pool. After all, you don't always need a car, boat, or various types of equipment, you only want to have ACCESS to them as needed. That is usually the reason for owning something. Well, you could still get those things when you need them, you just check them out from the community pool, instead of keeping it all the time, even when you are not using them.

                Sustainability of resources means several things. It doesn't mean everyone has to have exactly the same product at all. It means that things will be built to last, instead of the current junk specifically designed to break or wear out, so one must purchase a new item to replace it. Things like electronics would be built to be modular, so if an upgrade comes along, be it software or hardware, you simply remove the old component, and plug in the one replacing it, and the old component gets recycled back into the collective pool of resources. There could also be variations of item (such as cell phones), maybe 20 different sorts (based on public wants) and those would be updated as needed, instead of replacing entire phones every few years. If an entirely new advance is made requiring a completely new device, then it could be done as necessary, but generally most upgrades could be modular in nature. The old phones (as example) would just get replaced with said new device, and the old ones would get recycled into the material resource pool. In addition, things like furniture, clothes, etc. could be customized with new technologies that can literally 'print' out things in a custom fashion. There would still be personal choice options about items, but it would be done in a way that maintains sustainability.

                The monetary reasons that hold back many technologies would not exist, as there would be NO money. There would be no need to fight over funding, because it wouldn't exist. Major works like the space program wouldn't be as much of a hurdle because of 'costs', as the only issue would be if the necessary resources and know-how were available. There are a lot of facets to a RBE, but hopefully I've answered a few questions about it. If there are any specifics, I'll try to answer them.
                The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
                Spoiler:

                To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
                http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

                Feel free to pass the green..!

                My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
                My Blog @ http://myhatsize.blogspot.com
                Amazing Literary Works of Fel... http://sennadar.com/wp/

                Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by maneth View Post
                  Yeah, well, as long as the discussion doesn't degrade into the worship of libertarianism. I'm from Scandinavia, and take things like health insurance for all, free school lunches and fairly big government for granted. In fact, I wouldn't want it any other way.
                  There is nothing for free.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Kali View Post
                    There is nothing for free.
                    That is quite true, but keep in mind that saying doesn't ONLY refer to money. Time, Effort, and Resources are also relevant factors for which that saying applies. RBE includes all those three, but cuts out the money system itself.

                    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
                    Spoiler:

                    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
                    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

                    Feel free to pass the green..!

                    My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
                    My Blog @ http://myhatsize.blogspot.com
                    Amazing Literary Works of Fel... http://sennadar.com/wp/

                    Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Don't take offence, but I also am not gonna watch the videos and think it'd be better if you summarize the main points/arguments. Takes only a few minutes to skim read things rather than spend an hr watching a video.

                      Read that quote from 3 posts above. The whole thing seems to state a lot of END goals and a lot of goals that everyone would be favourable to and would want. However, it does not seem to state how those goals would be accomplished. A lot of it is built around automation and reduction of labour. But you have any idea how difficult that would be? Even at just the industrial level, the automation we have now still requires a sizable labour force regardless. And I sorta have some knowledge of a small subset of the envisioned automation you speak of (RTL systems), we are nowhere near such levels of automation in industry and much less so in other levels, especially even more difficult at achieving automation that hone towards labour reduction that would allow all of those other agreeable goals you state.

                      It's a lot of feel-good talk that does little to state how those goals would be accomplished. Sure, it's fun to speculate this and that with the assumptions of far-off goals reached (in your case, automation paired labour reduction), but seems kind of a meandering discussion.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        ^ i think he's referring to secret world domination by a select few with extremely self centered agendas. With that in mind, I doubt too many people will even consider that to be a real threat in their own lives. It's easier and more comfortable to ignore it. Besides, what can the average person do to change it?

                        My advice to the few who are concerned: hedge yourself in, and take measures to secure enough resources for your family when society does eventually collapse. And it will. It's a cycle of destruction. Civilization is built up, and then torn back down.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                          #13
                          You are right that individuals can't do much on their own. That is why it must be a cooperative effort. When the need is great enough people can come together, hopefully it won't get TOO bad before it could do any good.
                          The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
                          Spoiler:

                          To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
                          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

                          Feel free to pass the green..!

                          My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
                          My Blog @ http://myhatsize.blogspot.com
                          Amazing Literary Works of Fel... http://sennadar.com/wp/

                          Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by jmoz View Post
                            Don't take offence, but I also am not gonna watch the videos and think it'd be better if you summarize the main points/arguments. Takes only a few minutes to skim read things rather than spend an hr watching a video.
                            Actually, that first video (the main one) is only about a half hour long and it is VERY entertaining as well as educational. The creators were inspired by South Park (and Family Guy, I think), to create a short animated film that would also carry an educational message. It was even promoted by Judge Napolitano on his show on Fox Business, which Fox has since taken off the air. Seriously, the short film is more than enjoyable enough to actually take the time to watch.





                            Read that quote from 3 posts above. The whole thing seems to state a lot of END goals and a lot of goals that everyone would be favourable to and would want. However, it does not seem to state how those goals would be accomplished. A lot of it is built around automation and reduction of labour. But you have any idea how difficult that would be? Even at just the industrial level, the automation we have now still requires a sizable labour force regardless. And I sorta have some knowledge of a small subset of the envisioned automation you speak of (RTL systems), we are nowhere near such levels of automation in industry and much less so in other levels, especially even more difficult at achieving automation that hone towards labour reduction that would allow all of those other agreeable goals you state.

                            It's a lot of feel-good talk that does little to state how those goals would be accomplished. Sure, it's fun to speculate this and that with the assumptions of far-off goals reached (in your case, automation paired labour reduction), but seems kind of a meandering discussion.
                            If you want more specific details, I would refer you to the Venus Project FAQ.

                            http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project/faq
                            Attached Files
                            The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
                            Spoiler:

                            To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
                            http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

                            Feel free to pass the green..!

                            My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
                            My Blog @ http://myhatsize.blogspot.com
                            Amazing Literary Works of Fel... http://sennadar.com/wp/

                            Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I read up on the Zeitgeist Movement, and while it seems like a great way to live and I agree with the principles, the problem is not the movement but getting there. It sounds to me like just another version of Utopia and that has been tried many times before.

                              For it to be a global movement and to work, EVERYONE has to agree with those principles and that's not ever going to happen. So how are you going to get the people and business and governments that control the resources to give that up. Either they do it voluntarily (and not everyone will) or it you take it by force (and will people support a movement that does that for the purpose of redistributing). Then there's the problem that true communism has always had - the people given the power to collect all these resources and start the administration get a taste of the power and control and decide they don't want to give it up and it ends of a dictatorship. So you better be damn sure the group you appoint to set up this whole big fantastic resource run system is willing to go back to be one of the regular people when they are done.

                              As for technology, we aren't anywhere close to be able to support this ideal. Someone's going to have to write and manage the system. You'll need people with skills to maintain it. You'll need to make sure these people aren't corrupt and programming in ways to cheat or give themselves and/or friends and/or people that will bribe them (and don't say they will be no money to bribe, there are lots of other things you can bribe people with). Then people to maintain the physical technology when it breaks down and wears out.

                              About the car driving the drunk guy home - how is this going to happen any time in the near future? Last I heard we have a test car that can drive in limited pre-programmed area provided the way is clear. To get all this automation to work, then eveything is going to have to be connected. The cars will have to have very detailed (CORRECT!) maps of the area. The roadways will need to be electronically marked so the cars will know where they are. People balked when Google had it's cars going down streets to map the areas - how are you going to get this to work.

                              It's a great idea and might work in a small area but as a global solution (or even USA), you can't get there from here. The USA is to big, to diverse, to many people resistant to change to come even remotely close.

                              When you can show me a detailed step by step of how you are going to get from our present society in the USA to this Resource Based Society, let me know and we can talk further.
                              sigpic

                              To see the complete animated picture timeline of the comet landing - http://xkcd1446.org/#7

                              From the wonderful XKCD site http://xkcd.com/1446/

                              Comment

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