Stargate Wormhole Question

[SheppardIratus]

Okay, maybe there's a real simple answer, but it always did kinda of bug me.
It's well-known that the wormhole is a one-way street. But how can radio waves travel back and forth? Are they not, when you get right down to it, handled the same way as matter, broken down and re-assembled at the other end? Just wondering.
As an aside, what would happen if someone tried to go "back" through the gate, that is, let's say you gated to a primitive world and a curious native ran for the gate as it activated?

[SF_and_Coffee]

Okay, maybe there's a real simple answer, but it always did kinda of bug me.
It's well-known that the wormhole is a one-way street. But how can radio waves travel back and forth? Are they not, when you get right down to it, handled the same way as matter, broken down and re-assembled at the other end? Just wondering.
As an aside, what would happen if someone tried to go "back" through the gate, that is, let's say you gated to a primitive world and a curious native ran for the gate as it activated?

Okay, I'll let Carter explain this (it's a passage I wrote in a piece of fanfiction where Daniel has asked her a question very similar to yours, but it's the best explanation and it's drawn entirely from canon):

"As far as I can tell from my calculations," said Carter, "there's a mechanism that allows MALP telemetry and other comm signals to travel through the gate bi-directionally, even though matter transmission is strictly one-way. Conditions inside the wormhole simply affect matter and energy in different ways. The gate breaks down and reconstitutes whatever matter enters or exits, depending on whether it is in sending or receiving mode. That's part of the difference between an incoming and an outgoing wormhole. But since energy is already energy, it gets transmitted in its original state. The gate doesn't have to do anything to it, so it just passes through, regardless of what the gate itself is set to do."

"So gate technology treats matter and energy completely differently, right?" Daniel asked for clarification.

"Well, yes. I mean, inside the wormhole, everything is energy, and exists outside of our universe in a realm where the laws of physics operate differently from what we're used to. The wormhole itself can theoretically be affected by structures in our universe projecting into this super-universe beyond, but within the wormhole, our physical laws simply don't apply, which makes wormhole physics a completely different field."

Does that help any?

[Railgun]

Okay, I'll let Carter explain this (it's a passage I wrote in a piece of fanfiction where Daniel has asked her a question very similar to yours, but it's the best explanation and it's drawn entirely from canon):



Does that help any?

Wow, That's brilliant!

So if I'm reading Carter right, the gate would allow us to fire an energy weapon into an incoming wormhole and transmit it to the other side?

[SF_and_Coffee]

Wow, That's brilliant!

Thank you. I really enjoy writing Carter.

So if I'm reading Carter right, the gate would allow us to fire an energy weapon into an incoming wormhole and transmit it to the other side?

At least theoretically, yes. Now I'm trying to remember whether anyone ever tried that in the series. Did they?

[SeraphimsTear]

Up until Prodigy, it was never stated that things can't go two-way through a wormhole. (And it wasn't actually stated in Prodigy either. That's exactly the point Carter makes in Prodigy).

But a flame ware ensues: Matter can't travel both ways through a stargate. But matter does not necessarily travel through wormholes at all. All matter is disintegrated before it is send through the wormhole itself. It is than reintegrated at the other side from the receiving wormhole.

The event horizon we see is not the event horizon of the wormhole itself. It is the event horizon of the stargates transportation system. We never see the wormhole itself.

Maybe matter never travels through wormholes. According to todays science a wormhole could collapse if matter goes through (this is why it is often stated we would need exotic matter to go through wormholes).

Only signals go through the wormhole itself.
The stargate let's only matter from one side pass, because two signals could scramble each other (destroying the patterns of both traveling persons).
"Weaker signals" are no problem for the strong signal of the stargate itself.

This would account for most things seen and heard in stargate:

• Matter only traveling one way.
• Energy Fields traveling both ways. (Radio/Gravity/Radiation)
• Directed Energy Weapons don't travel both ways. (Since the the event horizon is not the wormhole they don't hit the wormhole itself, only the event horizon of the teleportation system).
• Teal'c's Patterns stored in the gates crystals in "48 Hours" (no mention of his particles/matter)

There are still some problems with "Red Sun", but even that can be explained away.

[GATEGOD]

Is this how other shows and movies treat a wormhole/device like a stargate?

Or do other movies/shows have devices that allow two way travel?

[Xaeden]

All matter is disintegrated before it is send through the wormhole itself. It is than reintegrated at the other side from the receiving wormhole.

The event horizon we see is not the event horizon of the wormhole itself. It is the event horizon of the stargates transportation system. We never see the wormhole itself.

Maybe matter never travels through wormholes. According to todays science a wormhole could collapse if matter goes through (this is why it is often stated we would need exotic matter to go through wormholes).

Right, matter doesn't travel through wormhole. The reason for disintegrating matter is to convert it to energy which is stored in the Stargate's buffer transferred to the buffer on the other end and then reintegrated. Although matter needs to be converted not because the wormhole would collapse, but because matter cannot safely travel through it, only energy can. I don't have a quote for that handy, but here's one from "48 Hours" that talks about the conversion to energy...

CARTER
You know how the Stargate turns matter into energy and then transmits it through a subspace wormhole?
DANIEL
That's gate travel 101.
CARTER
And the gate on the receiving end is what translates the energy signature and reconverts it back into its original form.

Only signals go through the wormhole itself.
The stargate let's only matter from one side pass, because two signals could scramble each other (destroying the patterns of both traveling persons).
"Weaker signals" are no problem for the strong signal of the stargate itself.

The way I've always seen it is this: Since matter cannot safely pass through a wormhole, it needs to be converted to energy which then needs to be passed from the buffer of one Stargate to another. But, since existing energy doesn't need to be converted, it can skip the buffer and go straight through the wormhole. Meaning, it's the Stargate's computer that prevents two way travel, not the wormhole itself. So, existing energy can go back and forth, but the computer disallows converted energy from being able to freely travel both ways, either for safety reasons or because the computer can't handle sending and receiving matter at the same time.

[Railgun]

Now I'm trying to remember whether anyone ever tried that in the series. Did they?

Not sure, but will be looking out for this from now on. There are definitely instances of energy weapons fire going one way through an outgoing wormhole. It would seem human nature for SG1 to continue returning fire when escaping through the stargate under fire, so perhaps Teal'c has used a staff weapon or a Zat.

[*]Directed Energy Weapons don't travel both ways. (Since the the event horizon is not the wormhole they don't hit the wormhole itself, only the event horizon of the teleportation system).

But, since existing energy doesn't need to be converted, it can skip the buffer and go straight through the wormhole. Meaning, it's the Stargate's computer that prevents two way travel, not the wormhole itself. So, existing energy can go back and forth, but the computer disallows converted energy from being able to freely travel both ways, either for safety reasons or because the computer can't handle sending and receiving matter at the same time.

If it's the gate system that prevents the 2 way directed energy beam for safety reasons then couldn't the SGC just override the safety protocols with the dialling computer? There would be no need for the DHD at the other end to reintegrate anything since it was already energy, just for our gate to allow the energy into the wormhole in the first place.

[knowles2]

The wormhole isn't oneway. The stargate matter disassembler and reassembler technology is one way.

[SeraphimsTear]

Is this how other shows and movies treat a wormhole/device like a stargate?

Or do other movies/shows have devices that allow two way travel?

General relativity gives us two-way travel through wormholes, so most scifi stories have this.

Right, matter doesn't travel through wormhole. The reason for disintegrating matter is to convert it to energy which is stored in the Stargate's buffer transferred to the buffer on the other end and then reintegrated. Although matter needs to be converted not because the wormhole would collapse, but because matter cannot safely travel through it, only energy can.

"Real" wormholes would collapse under the gravity of matter, that's why I supposed wormholes in stargate would do this. It was never stated on-screen, just seems plausible.

If it's the gate system that prevents the 2 way directed energy beam for safety reasons then couldn't the SGC just override the safety protocols with the dialling computer? There would be no need for the DHD at the other end to reintegrate anything since it was already energy, just for our gate to allow the energy into the wormhole in the first place.

The event horizon is not the wormhole. If you fire an energy weapon at the event horizon it has to be desintegrated and reintegrated. Only energy weapons that are not directed can pass through the wormhole both ways, and they do.
If the SGC would simply overwrite their gate to send, even if it is in receiving mode, but the other side would still be in sending mode. Plus we have no idea why this safety is in place. The SGC could face horrible consequences (i.e. fines from the ancients for EULA violation).
Maybe the SGC could overwrite both the SGCs gate and the sending gate, to switch sides.

But the two-way constriction might not even be a safety-reason thing. Maybe it's just a technical thing. The desintegration/reintegration system (aka event horizon) can only be in receiving or sending mode.

The stargate consists of at least two parts. A wormhole generator, that creates ridiculously small wormholes to other stargates and the teleportation system, that creates the visible event horizon and converts matter to energy and visa versa.

The one-way restriction could be from either one or both of these system. Actually it could be from neither. Maybe the ancients didn't like the idea of traveling to ways. Or they build this after they had accidents where someone wanted to go in at the same moment when someone else wanted to go in on the other side and they bumped into each other.

[SF_and_Coffee]

If you fire an energy weapon at the event horizon it has to be desintegrated and reintegrated.

Ah, no, actually. Energy beams fired from energy weapons are already energy, and therefore do not need to be disintegrated and reintegrated. The same is true of radio waves and gravitation, as we were shown in various episodes. Energy that encounters a gate as energy (rather than being converted from matter by the gate) is clearly shown as being capable of bidirectional passage.

Only energy weapons that are not directed can pass through the wormhole both ways, and they do.

I don't even know what the above sentence is supposed to mean. Can you clarify?

[SeraphimsTear]

The problem with directed energy weapons passing through the wormhole without being disintegrated is, that no directed energy weapon will ever hit the wormhole.

The event horizon is NOT the wormhole. The event horizon is the matter-energy converter of the stargate.

An energy field can pass through the wormhole since it is not directed. It does not go through the visible event horizon, but directly through the invisible wormhole.
This is why radio can go through the stargate, but a beam weapon can not. The beam weapon will never hit the wormhole. The wormhole is not the visible event horizon of the stargate. The event horizon belongs to the matter-energy converter.



By the way, most stargate "energy" weapons, like the staff weapon would not pass through anyway. A staff weapon uses plasma, which is just matter and has to be disintegrated and reintegrated.

And most energy is actually transported via particles, which would have to go through the disintegration/reintegration cycle.
From "Serpent's Song" we know that even subatomic particles have to go through this and have to be reintegrated on arrival.

MARTOUF
The space between your metal barrier and the wormhole may be enough for particles of extremely high energy to reintegrate.

CARTER
Subatomic particles?

MARTOUF
Yes.

Actually, come to think of it: Light does not go through the event horizon. So maybe "true" energy weapons would not go through the event horizon at all.
Have we ever seen that?
Staff weapons are not energy weapons, they are particle based.
I know that wraith fired through the gate in Rising, though these could have been particle based as well (high energy particle beams).
Was there Zat fire? (which is at least most likely an energy weapon)

On the other hand, most "energy" weapons are particle based, so they would not go through, even if the event horizon was the wormhole.




On clarifying the directed energy weapons, not directed energy weapons sentence:

• Directed Energy Weapons have a beam or directed pulse of energy. They fly in one direction with a clear path.
• Non directed energy weapons create a field or wave and simply spread out from a source.

Directed energy weapons can't hit the wormhole, it's not the visible event horizon of the stargate, and can't travel directly through it.
Non directed energy weapons can travel through the wormhole. It doesn't have to hit anything visible. It just rolls over the whole stargate. Radio, Gravity, Radiation and energy fields seem to travel through the wormhole. Though radiation seems to be, at least partly, absorbed by the iris. (this could be simply because radiation is mostly particle based and actually does not travel directly through the wormhole).

[SF_and_Coffee]

The problem with directed energy weapons passing through the wormhole without being disintegrated is, that no directed energy weapon will ever hit the wormhole.

The 'disintegration' of matter turns the matter to energy. Energy is already energy and therefore does not have to be disintegrated in order to become energy.

The event horizon is NOT the wormhole. The event horizon is the matter-energy converter of the stargate.

Actually, the event horizon isn't the converter. The event horizon is the entrance to the wormhole. The Stargate itself does the conversion via something contained in the ring machinery.

An energy field can pass through the wormhole since it is not directed. It does not go through the visible event horizon, but directly through the invisible wormhole.

Directed, undirected... it makes no difference. Energy is energy. It passes through the event horizon, enters the wormhole, and is transmitted.

Also, weapons and their beams are not the same thing as each other.

And most energy is actually transported via particles, which would have to go through the disintegration/reintegration cycle.

Let me guess: you've never actually studied physics, have you?

Actually, come to think of it: Light does not go through the event horizon.

Wrong. We already know that radio waves travel back to the SGC from a MALP. Radio is light.