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  1. #221
    Captain Xaeden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
    However, in the show we have seen backwards time travel before. I guess there is a bit of a leap of faith required but backward time travel is canon because they have already done it in the show by other means. The question of if this method of attaining backward time travel is possible in show would be up to the artistic licence of the show creators I guess.
    How, though, would that work on a moving ship? When Carter reversed time in "Unending" everything in the time dilation field reversed including the Odyssey and the Ori beam. If the Destiny is traveling through space and time is just reversing for the people within the ship, they're going to have a problem. Maybe the people in the stasis pods won't, but only if time doesn't reverse past the point where they went in them. Eli and anyone else you imagine not being in stasis are going to have a serious problem right away.

  2. #222
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    I would suggest though that Destiny FTL drive must have the technology included to induce a time dilation field in the ship and control it such that time appears to run normally in FTL(as otherwise it would not, at light speed anyway, who knows what would actually happen at faster than light). This technology will come with safeguards to prevent the negative consequences that you mention.

    By hacking this time dilation technology Eli could potentially be able to slightly manipulate time on board the ship whilst having to make sure he did not do something catastrophic by reversing his own timeline too far.

  3. #223
    Captain Xaeden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    He'd reverse his own timeline too far instantaneously, though. If the entire universe rewinds while a person is on Earth, that person and the Earth will travel back to a previous point in space and time. If a person rewinds and the Earth doesn't, that person will very shortly be in the air (or in the ground), then burning up in the atmosphere, then matter floating in space. The Earth will continue its forward orbit around the sun, while the person will be moving back to a previous point in the Earth's orbit, without the Earth.

    Similarly, if the Destiny is flying at light speeds, it doesn't matter if a person is standing still, they're going to return to a previously traveled point in space. Obviously, we're talking about a field here, so it wouldn't just impact a person, it would impact the ship as well. If the field extends to the whole ship (both its interior and exterior) the ship would (like the Odyssey) be flying backwards. If it just extends to the interior of the ship, what is likely to happen is that the engines will push the outer hull forward while the interior is pushed backward and the entire ship would be instantly destroyed.

    It's extremely possible that a TV show would pretend like that's not a problem, just as Stargate has done about countless things, like the trope where someone can walk through walls but doesn't fall through the floor. But if the ship's technology is said to prevent what I described from happening, then time is not being reversed. To go back to the person on Earth example: Technology that keeps a person on the ground as they reverse their previous actions while the Earth's orbit continues forward is technology that is actively putting a person in spaces they have not previously been. That's not time reversal technology + an "inhibitor field" (or whatever one might imagine), it's... I don't know how to describe that any other way than to say it's a spell.

  4. #224
    First Lieutenant Chaka-Z0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaeden View Post
    He'd reverse his own timeline too far instantaneously, though. If the entire universe rewinds while a person is on Earth, that person and the Earth will travel back to a previous point in space and time. If a person rewinds and the Earth doesn't, that person will very shortly be in the air (or in the ground), then burning up in the atmosphere, then matter floating in space. The Earth will continue its forward orbit around the sun, while the person will be moving back to a previous point in the Earth's orbit, without the Earth.

    Similarly, if the Destiny is flying at light speeds, it doesn't matter if a person is standing still, they're going to return to a previously traveled point in space. Obviously, we're talking about a field here, so it wouldn't just impact a person, it would impact the ship as well. If the field extends to the whole ship (both its interior and exterior) the ship would (like the Odyssey) be flying backwards. If it just extends to the interior of the ship, what is likely to happen is that the engines will push the outer hull forward while the interior is pushed backward and the entire ship would be instantly destroyed.

    It's extremely possible that a TV show would pretend like that's not a problem, just as Stargate has done about countless things, like the trope where someone can walk through walls but doesn't fall through the floor. But if the ship's technology is said to prevent what I described from happening, then time is not being reversed. To go back to the person on Earth example: Technology that keeps a person on the ground as they reverse their previous actions while the Earth's orbit continues forward is technology that is actively putting a person in spaces they have not previously been. That's not time reversal technology + an "inhibitor field" (or whatever one might imagine), it's... I don't know how to describe that any other way than to say it's a spell.
    How would Eli be able to access such technology though? The Time Dilation device was created by the Asgards, a civilizations much more advanced than Destiny's level of tech, they'd need to gate it back on board.

    Here's another question, would the whole universe be willing to reverse time for the sake of a few lives on board Destiny?
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

  5. #225
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
    How would Eli be able to access such technology though? The Time Dilation device was created by the Asgards, a civilizations much more advanced than Destiny's level of tech, they'd need to gate it back on board.
    Railgun's supposition is that the technology already exists in the Destiny. Technically, the Ancients also invented time dilation technology (or perhaps originally invented it as the Asgard may gotten the knowledge from the Ancient database), but we only know that they could do that 10,000 years ago, not however many tens of millions of years ago the Destiny was created.

    I chose to ignore that point and simply assume that it was possible for the sake of argument as I am more interested in discussing the logistics of a time reversal field within a forward moving ship.

    Here's another question, would the whole universe be willing to reverse time for the sake of a few lives on board Destiny?
    If time is reversing for the whole universe it wouldn't really matter. Once it stops reversing everything is going to play out exactly as it did previously unless the crew of the Destiny are aware of the reversal and make contact with someone outside of their ship earlier than they otherwise would have. In that case, they'd initiate a butterfly effect scenario where their small communication creates a ripple that will lead to bigger changes over time.

    Also, if time is reversing for the entire universe that would mean that the time reversal field doesn't just exist within the Destiny and if it doesn't exist within the Destiny, the Destiny itself would be flying backward in space, thus negating the reason why Railgun suggested it. He was trying to come up with a way for the Destiny to reach the next galaxy without Eli or anyone else who might end up awake having to die.

    A time dilation field would sufficiently do that, so I'm not sure why he brought the concept of time reversal into this.

  6. #226
    First Lieutenant Chaka-Z0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaeden View Post
    I chose to ignore that point and simply assume that it was possible for the sake of argument as I am more interested in discussing the logistics of a time reversal field within a forward moving ship.
    Understood. Now considering that there have been examples of such technology (the planets where humans are *fast-tracking* ascension (when Shep gets stuck in the cave)) it could be possible as we don't know the exact timeline.

    If time is reversing for the whole universe it wouldn't really matter. Once it stops reversing everything is going to play out exactly as it did previously unless the crew of the Destiny are aware of the reversal and make contact with someone outside of their ship earlier than they otherwise would have. In that case, they'd initiate a butterfly effect scenario where their small communication creates a ripple that will lead to bigger changes over time.
    I understand the time dilation field being a localized event, and as you said would be hard to fathom given the Destiny is moving much faster than, for instance the Replicators on the Asgard homeworld. Time dilation I'd say maybe.

    Local time reversal though is the one I can't wrap my head around, you would have exotic particles technically coming out of a different universe meddling with those of the current non-reversed universe and cause havoc, wouldn't it?

    A time dilation field would sufficiently do that, so I'm not sure why he brought the concept of time reversal into this.
    It's an interesting proposal, I've read about countless theories of Eli reaching the galaxy and this one I haven't heard before. I still think that relativity would kind of nullify the effects from the POV of the Destiny crew, the ship would move faster without any apparent difference for the crew. Unless, as perhaps Railgun suggests, that somehow the Destiny adapts it's FTL field into a time dilation field that would pass through subspace at higher speeds. Interesting.
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

  7. #227
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaeden View Post
    A time dilation field would sufficiently do that, so I'm not sure why he brought the concept of time reversal into this.
    I think the time reversal idea just popped into my head at the last minute and perhaps is not as fully thought through as the time dilation one. As you say it's not necessary to reverse time to achieve the goal of getting Eli to the next galaxy alive.

    The reason why one lead to the other in my mind is that I was trying to work out, if time is stood still on-board at the speed of light then what would happen to time on-board at speeds greater than light?

    I can think of some other shows where travel faster than light is linked to time reversal (although these are not SG shows). eg think Superman in the first movie. SM flies round earth so fast time reverses and Lois comes back from the dead.

    The Destiny drive is referred to as FTL (faster than light) but I'm not sure there is actually any information given in show as to the actual speed that Destiny is travelling through space in FTL? Or even if it does go faster than light all the time in FTL.

    I suppose there is a question if Destiny is travelling faster than light then what are the ordinary implications of this on time.
    I get what you say that if time was going backwards everywhere Destiny would be travelling backwards in space, but we know that Destiny is not travelling backwards since they are using FTL and have travelled a long way forward since it was launched.

    Perhaps the effect of time going backwards is limited to going backwards at the speed of light, and any ship exceeding this speed going forward would still go forward at the difference between its speed minus the speed of light? Thus having some forward motion in space even with reversing time. (There is really nothing to base this on though..it would just depend on how the writers decided to do it)

    I probably would need a Stargate re-watch to fully form a cogent argument on the time reversal aspects, it's a while since I last saw unending.
    Last edited by Railgun; May 28th, 2019 at 07:01 PM.

  8. #228
    First Lieutenant Chaka-Z0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
    I suppose there is a question if Destiny is travelling faster than light then what are the ordinary implications of this on time.
    From my understanding, none. In a nutshell FTL is a thin layer of hyperspace but not completely in it, kind of at the junction of normal space.

    Destiny travels through normal space like a ghost would travel our world, the ghost can interact in some limited ways with our plane but just zips through walls as much as Destiny can be affected by gravity pulls, say a supernova going off while being in FTL.

    Pseudo scientific babble aside, in the show we don't see any effects on time. They had the communication stones which means that if FTL did have an effect on time they would've noticed when contact with HQ was made. Besides there's a reason why relativity is always ignored in sci-fi's, unless it's the principal theme of a movie relativity would make story telling next to impossible.

    meanwhile on the planet Bonkers 5.63 years have passed, the colonel enters the room two minutes after beaming in from the Galaxy of Bazanga. He meets his old friend that been waiting for him in the temple for the past 20 years.
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

  9. #229
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
    They had the communication stones which means that if FTL did have an effect on time they would've noticed when contact with HQ was made.
    Good point.

  10. #230
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
    I can think of some other shows where travel faster than light is linked to time reversal (although these are not SG shows). eg think Superman in the first movie. SM flies round earth so fast time reverses and Lois comes back from the dead.
    I'm not sure the intent of the movie is that time reversed because he flew faster than light. That may be something fans/comic book writers have put forth to make it more palatable than the idea that he can reverse time by reversing the rotation of a planet, which is how most people interpret that scene. I don't know if the filmmakers ever weighed in on this, though.

    In any case, you're right, the idea that time travel becomes possible if you travel faster than the speed of light is certainly not uncommon in fiction.

  11. #231
    First Lieutenant Chaka-Z0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaeden View Post
    In any case, you're right, the idea that time travel becomes possible if you travel faster than the speed of light is certainly not uncommon in fiction.
    Agreed, and that's also proven science you don't even need to achieve FTL to do that (atomic clock experiment, some areas on Earth where time flows faster too (think it has something to do with electromagnetic fields being more concentrated in certain spots)).
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

  12. #232
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
    Agreed, and that's also proven science you don't even need to achieve FTL to do that (atomic clock experiment, some areas on Earth where time flows faster too (think it has something to do with electromagnetic fields being more concentrated in certain spots)).
    Slight clarification: Yes, you're completely correct that science demonstrates that time will slow as you achieve greater speeds. What I was referring to, though, was what happens after you break the speed of light, a theoretical impossibility for which there is no way of knowing what would happen if (and that's a big if) it were possible. Because it's an unknown hypothetical, fiction writers have crafted stories where it is possible and then inserted their own explanations. A reasonably popular one is that it will allow you to travel back in time, which is an extension of us knowing that time slows down as you approach the speed of light. The idea that there is a certain point where you're going so fast that you'll travel back in time has a certain logical flow to it within a fictional setting, but that's just a fun science fiction idea that has no real world science to support it.

  13. #233
    First Lieutenant Chaka-Z0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    I just stumbled onto this

    What if you traveled faster than the speed of light?

    According to Einstein, if Superman were to chase a light beam at half the speed of light, the beam would continue to move away from him at exactly the same speed.
    And this would be relevant to Destiny's case...

    If you flew on a rocket traveling 90 percent of light-speed, the passage of time for you would be halved. Your watch would advance only 10 minutes, while more than 20 minutes would pass for an Earthbound observer.
    So safe to assume that Railgun was correct in his statement that time SHOULD slow down for the crew of Destiny, which is very interesting but we must concur with the canon of the show that Destiny's FTL has no effect on time whatsoever.
    Last edited by Chaka-Z0; May 30th, 2019 at 09:21 AM.
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

  14. #234
    Captain Xaeden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Yeah he'd either have to modify the subspace engines to travel at near light speeds like the Tria did or find a way to create an artificial time dilation field while the ship was in subspace. The former is problematic as it would delay their journey to the next galaxy by tens of thousands of years and presumably this would use significantly more energy than the FTL engine does. The latter is possible if the technology exists in the Destiny, but that would be an additional energy sink and they already barely have enough energy to make it through the void. I think that's why Railgun was trying to envision it as something the FTL engines can already do.

  15. #235
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    I think that little shudder you get when Destiny enters FTL is the time dilation technology activating. It would not make much sense that time would only alter for a split second at the start of an FTL journey.

    If time is going to be affected, ether at sub light speeds (as per science) and at FTL speeds (subject to fiction) It would not be the most likely consequence that time judders a bit then proceeds as normal, IMO. I think it would have to affect the whole journey.

    So I think it's a case that the time dilation field is always activated when the ship goes into FTL and hacking it could change the passage of time on-board to the advantage of Eli. It is the time dilation field in ordinary mode that makes time go at the same speed as normal(at rest) despite the speed of the ship and the laws of relativity saying it should do otherwise.(I don't think this breaks canon. Time is seen in show to go as normal, but the time dilation field is automatically activated by Destiny to accomplish this.)

    Since the time dilation field is already active I do not see it consuming more energy, when hacked, than the calculations already done to get to the next galaxy, but of course it could.
    Last edited by Railgun; June 1st, 2019 at 09:26 AM.

  16. #236
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    Default Re: Did Eli fix the Stasis pod or come up with another solution?

    Another idea I have been playing with is that Eli changes his mind, heads for a star to recharge. Yes they'd have to fight once more but a good chance of winning. Once the star is captured the ship could stay defending that star and use the gate to establish bases on planets/get supplies.

    Destiny would be able to collect energy at any time from the star so would be fully powered up to fend off any further attacks also could retreat into the star if need be for protection.

    They could maybe make a spin-off out of this with teams using the gates SG1 style.

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