Atlantis' clandestine departure..?

[Durgia]

Ah, I forgot about that. Good point, that could be a good possibility.



I suppose a lot of that makes sense, but the sole problem of power consumption remains. It seems like ultimately Atlantis wasn't made to reside in an environment without atmosphere. It can travel through one, but not remain in one indefinitely. The shield is a defensive implement, not something that is active around the clock just so the city can be habitable. Obviously this is the case with space-travel, but "travel" is the operative word there. Wouldn't you agree?

I think if the Tau'ri advanced to the point that they mastered terraforming, then perhaps they could terraform the moon with a viable atmosphere, maybe even some oceans to park Atlantis on, etc. In that case putting Atlantis on the moon would be an excellent idea for the reasons that you and Energizer_Vs_ZPM have mentioned.

The city was not meant to be a submarine but it held the shield up under the ocean of Lantea for 10,000 years....

[Aesop]

But you can't prove it though can you and thats what everyone around here on this forum depends on - it has to be said, seen etc on the show to be fact.

Technically then, you can't necessarily prove the opposite either, that they just ran the shield around the clock. From what we know, there weren't really any threats in the Milky Way that would require the shield be active anyway and since the city at that time was on Earth we know it had a breathable atmosphere so the shield wasn't necessary to maintain a healthy atmosphere. The logical conclusion, it seems, would be that the viewer is glimpsing the city just prior to her departure from Earth.

It's also possible that it was active for no reason whatsoever other than TPTB wanted to show off the show's latest visual effects.

Besides, if you go on that attitude, the city can't take off with the shield active

I never said it could, my thinking was simply that they could pilot the city (cloaked) as far away from anywhere that a witness could be watching and then switch from cloak to shield and liftoff.

The city was not meant to be a submarine but it held the shield up under the ocean of Lantea for 10,000 years....

That's kind of apples and oranges though. While the Ancients did anticipate the likelihood that Atlantis would be underwater for a long time, they didn't believe it would be there indefinitely. Janus knew that eventually power would run out and if it did the city would either be destroyed underwater or rise to the ocean's surface where there was a suitable atmosphere so the lack of shield wouldn't be a problem. Hence why he recruited Weir to rotate the ZPM's every 3,300 years—to prolong their life just long enough to allow the Atlantis Expedition to safely arrive and take Atlantis to the surface before she was destroyed.

The bottom line is that Atlantis can travel through a vacuum but it wasn't intended to reside in it.

[Durgia]

The shield is a defensive implement, not something that is active around the clock just so the city can be habitable.

The city was not meant to be a submarine but it held the shield up under the ocean of Lantea for 10,000 years....

That's kind of apples and oranges though. While the Ancients did anticipate the likelihood that Atlantis would be underwater for a long time, they didn't believe it would be there indefinitely. Janus knew that eventually power would run out and if it did the city would either be destroyed underwater or rise to the ocean's surface where there was a suitable atmosphere so the lack of shield wouldn't be a problem. Hence why he recruited Weir to rotate the ZPM's every 3,300 years—to prolong their life just long enough to allow the Atlantis Expedition to safely arrive and take Atlantis to the surface before she was destroyed.

The bottom line is that Atlantis can travel through a vacuum but it wasn't intended to reside in it.

The point I was countering was the one you made stating that the shield was a defensive item and not meant to keep the city habitable which is entirely unfounded based in the show. The Shield kept the city habitable under the ocean for 10,000 years so it can be used for that function. There is nothing stated or implied in the show about the city not being able to be used in a vacuum. We do not know the hyperdrive speeds that were possible when Atlantis left Earth, so we do not know how long it took them to reach Pegasus and how long the city was designed to stay in Vacuum stationary or while in transit. There were built in redundancy features when Atlantis was in transit in a Vacuum that when it became low on power it did everything to maintain the shield, including cutting hyperdrive capability and narrowing the coverage of the shield. While this point can be used to argue the point either way I believe it shows that the Lanteans at least considered the possibility of having it in space for a longer duration than simple transit.

Whether you agree with the idea of putting the City on the Moon or not, it is possible based on what we have seen and been told in the show. I can agree with the argument that it may not be a good idea because of the risk if a wide spread power failure hit and we would have to work around that possibly, but it should be well within the capabilities of the city.

[Aesop]

The point I was countering was the one you made stating that the shield was a defensive item and not meant to keep the city habitable which is entirely unfounded based in the show. The Shield kept the city habitable under the ocean for 10,000 years so it can be used for that function. There is nothing stated or implied in the show about the city not being able to be used in a vacuum. We do not know the hyperdrive speeds that were possible when Atlantis left Earth, so we do not know how long it took them to reach Pegasus and how long the city was designed to stay in Vacuum stationary or while in transit. There were built in redundancy features when Atlantis was in transit in a Vacuum that when it became low on power it did everything to maintain the shield, including cutting hyperdrive capability and narrowing the coverage of the shield. While this point can be used to argue the point either way I believe it shows that the Lanteans at least considered the possibility of having it in space for a longer duration than simple transit.

Ah yes, I would be wrong on the point that the shield is just for defensive purposes. Though I do still stand by my point that while the shield is also intended to maintain atmosphere whether the city is underwater or in the vacuum of space, that function wasn't meant to be permanent. Which is exactly what it would be if Atlantis was parked on the moon.

Whether you agree with the idea of putting the City on the Moon or not, it is possible based on what we have seen and been told in the show. I can agree with the argument that it may not be a good idea because of the risk if a wide spread power failure hit and we would have to work around that possibly, but it should be well within the capabilities of the city.

I never disagreed that it wasn't possible to put Atlantis on the moon, I just said it would be impractical. It very well may also put the city at too much risk. Like you said, if the city suffered damage to it's power conduits that shut off the shield completely, then that's it, everyone would be dead. There's also the issue of a landing site, since the moon lacks any sort of body of water that Atlantis could land on the next option would be a docking structure like the Antarctic outpost. That's a probable solution, but we really don't know if we have the resources (yet) to construct a proper outpost at our level of technology and construction capabilities (especially in space) to make an outpost that would allow the city to dock correctly.

Though I wouldn't put it past McKay and Carter's abilities to correctly design an outpost capable of docking with Atlantis.

All in all, the risks seems to outweigh the benefits. We want to relocate the city to a harsher environment simply so it can be a glorified quarantine station? Landing on a planet with a Naquadriah core may be equally as risky but the benefits are definitely there and the risks are mitigated by a number of factors.

[The Urban Spaceman]

No, I'm providing an analogy of how it would be connected up. Just like people hundreds of years ago also used the wheel (which btw, is on every modern car). Just because the tech is old doesn't mean the same principle doesn't apply.

"Would" be connected up? No, I think more like "could" be connected up. Massive difference. As I said, comparing light bulbs to shield generators is just ridiculous.

If we can use seperate lighting circuits for light bulbs just to light a house, don't you think the Ancients would be smart enough when their lives and city depended on it?

Do I think the people who programmed aggressive nanites and homicidal machines, who created a machine that gives its users exploding tumours, and made a weapon which destroys solar systems -- to name but a few -- capable of designing shield generators to run in parallel rather than series?

Now that you mention it...

I hate to break it to you but in pizza parlours and pre-made pizza factories thats actually what they're capable of.

I didn't mention pizza factories. I mentioned you. I didn't even mention pizza. It was lasagne. They're entirely different.

And as I mentioned above, if the shield could extend over a large area of the entire planet, then they could clearly cover others that are not in use when covering ONLY the city. Why do you think that each generator/emitter doesn't have enough redundancy to cover others that are not in use? Do you really think the Ancients would take a chance like that? The very fact that each part could somehow be stretched over a large area of a planet shows that each one can stretch / cover other areas as needed.

As for the shape of it, the shield emitters are based outside of the central tower yet in adrift we see the shield covering ONLY the central tower. That alone should tell you that the way they operate is shown for cosmetic purposes. Rodney could probably reprogram the shield to take the form of santas sleigh for all we know.

In order to trick the Wraith into believing Atlantis was destroyed, the expedition converted the shield into a massive cloak, turning the whole city invisible to both visual and mechanical means of observation. When the shield used in this manner, the emitters draw much less power than normal, allowing the cloak to remain active for far longer than the shield could when under no stress. The downside to using the shield in this way was that the cloak is simply the shield operating on another frequency, meaning the shield is replaced entirely and the city is vulnerable to attack if an enemy is not fooled, as it takes time to reconfigure the cloak back to a shield

The downside to using the shield in this way was that the cloak is simply the shield operating on another frequency, meaning the shield is replaced entirely and the city is vulnerable to attack if an enemy is not fooled, as it takes time to reconfigure the cloak back to a shield

meaning the shield is replaced entirely and the city is vulnerable to attack

the shield is replaced entirely

replaced entirely

Hope this helps. I highlighted the important bits for you.

[thekillman]

I'm pretty sure the shield was up because it was on the verge of embarking into space.

And i know it's been proven.

In First Strike, the city needs to take off with the shields on. However, it can barely get into space as it is, so the team decides to raise the shield at a higher altitude, so they have more power for the stardrive.

This means that taking off with the shield on is standard practice, and that raising it at a higher altitude is not.

Do I think the people who programmed aggressive nanites and homicidal machines, who created a machine that gives its users exploding tumours, and made a weapon which destroys solar systems -- to name but a few -- capable of designing shield generators to run in parallel rather than series?

This assumes that the shield and cloak do not interfere with eachother and leave you both cloakless and shieldess. No ship in existence is both cloaked and shielded, and the obvious reason is that it is not possible. Those people you speak of did not make such a technology either.

Making something cloaked is probably a harder job than you think, a state easily disturbed by, well, anything. This is probably why ships don't fire while cloaked and why they can not be shielded while cloaked.

Hope this helps. I highlighted the important bits for you.

The point of the cloak is to ensure nobody knows the city is even there. Therefore, the city would not be vulnerable to attack, as nobody would see it or detect it or know it is there. Nothing to fire at. and trying to hit Atlantis while it's cloaked could very well take months of orbital bombardment (only a couple of days with a more elaborate firing solution).

Since Atlantis can detect ships in Hyperspace, it also obviously can see when it's being attacked and when it needs shields.

[garhkal]

Though i thought us putting in a cloak on atlantis was OUR modification via using a puddle jumper, not a standard feature.

[thekillman]

yes, but the ease at which it was done, and the ease at which jumpers can reconfigure it to a shield suggests it's an intended feature

[Aesop]

Though i thought us putting in a cloak on atlantis was OUR modification via using a puddle jumper, not a standard feature.

You're right. Now, I could be wrong but I believe the nature of the cloak is that whatever the Jumper is doing alters the frequency of Atlantis' shield emitters. It seems to me that it's not unlike when the Destiny crew set it's shields to a specific frequency (as opposed to the randomization the shields cycled through as a preset) in order to stop the Berzerker Drone attacks. It succeeded in stopping the Drone's energy weapons but left them completely vulnerable to kamikaze attacks. Atlantis seems to be the same way, they can alter the frequency of the shield output to a degree that transforms it into a cloak, but that alteration prevents it from actually stopping any potential attack.

What I wonder is if there's a parked Puddle Jumper somewhere in the bay that's hardwired into a control panel somewhere or if they just removed a cloak generator and jury rigged it into Atlantis' systems.

[garhkal]

More than likely the former. They use a dedicated jumper.

[Railgun]

SGC could use Merlin's device to hide Atlantis during take-off, then use an Asgard beam to send the device back to Earth from orbit when Atlantis can switch to use it's own cloak.

[hawk97135]

Another possible idea.
According to my memory BC-304 class ships (Daedalus class) use Asgard shields across the hanger bay to keep it pressurized while the F-302's are entering and exiting the Hanger while in space.
So could they use the existing shield emitters on Atlantis to keep it cloaked and then fit Asgard shielding technology to keep it pressurized during takeoff?

[garhkal]

it would more than likely take all 5 of our 304s to cover atlantis.