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  1. #21
    Brigadier General fems's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Asgard Flu View Post
    But it DOES get built by Baal in the original un-altered timeline, thats how he time travels in the first place! why can you people not grasp this simple fact! the machine isn't only built in the altered timeline, it's built in the first ever original one because that is how he finds the solar flare to originally travel back in time to the correct time and place to sink the gate!
    How the hell do you all think he time traveled in the first ever instance?
    The Baal that was being extracted even says that SG-1 gave him the idea in the first place to use a solar flare to time travel and he said that before the timeline got altered, so the machine at Praxia exists in the first ever unaltered timeline therefore when mitchel puts things right then Baal will still build the machine.
    Does everyone think he just got lucky to find the relevant solar flare to go back to the time the gate was being shipped across the ocean? he would have needed to place sattelites all over the galaxy and build the Praxia machine in order to go exactly where he wanted to go.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    To me it seems you are the one with the comprehension problem; I was merely saying I don't think it was Ba'al who built it, mostly because of its design, all the satellites that would have been needed and the Ancient language that was shown.

    So, all he had to do was stumble across it and perhaps modify its original function (mere observation and cataloging perhaps) to what he needed it to do; travel back in time from 2008. All questionable things like how he would have even known where to go and how/when the gate was originally transported aside, he managed to travel to 1939 and get aboard the ship and alter the timeline.

    Presumably this is also when he rebuilt the machine, although I'm not sure why since it seems like everything went as planned and he would have needed those 70 years to get to the position he was in to attack/enslave Earth. Maybe it was a backup plan for when things didn't turn out the way he wanted them to and he could redo it.

    Or, what I think is the case, the device wasn't built by Ba'al but the Ancients, waaaay before 1939 and thus would still exist in the altered timeline.

    Either way, Carter, Daniel and Mitchell managed to travel to the same alternate timeline and did their thing, ending with Mitchell's trip back to the past (in a timeline different from the original and the altered one, but presumably resembling the original one closest).

    Then, in 1939, Mitchell is on the ship awaiting Ba'al's arrival and kills him. The timeline unfolds as it should have now that Ba'al isn't there to alter it and we fast forward to 2008 where the extraction ceremony goes through successfully.

    However, with the original Ba'al (who according to some built the machine) killed in 1939 he never managed to build the machine again in the current timeline, so at the end of the movie we're in a different altered timeline that closely resembles the original one (only differences are presumably an extra Mitchell in the past, dead original Ba'al in 1939 and a successful extraction ceremony) but no machine to travel through time waiting to be discovered again...

    Unless it wasn't built by Ba'al and earlier than 1939, of course.
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  2. #22
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Asgard Flu View Post
    But it DOES get built by Baal in the original un-altered timeline, thats how he time travels in the first place! why can you people not grasp this simple fact! the machine isn't only built in the altered timeline, it's built in the first ever original one because that is how he finds the solar flare to originally travel back in time to the correct time and place to sink the gate!
    How the hell do you all think he time traveled in the first ever instance?
    The Baal that was being extracted even says that SG-1 gave him the idea in the first place to use a solar flare to time travel and he said that before the timeline got altered, so the machine at Praxia exists in the first ever unaltered timeline therefore when mitchel puts things right then Baal will still build the machine.
    Does everyone think he just got lucky to find the relevant solar flare to go back to the time the gate was being shipped across the ocean? he would have needed to place sattelites all over the galaxy and build the Praxia machine in order to go exactly where he wanted to go.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    It doesn't matter that Baal built it to go back in time in the original timeline, he travelled back in time about 70 years. So unless the device was built 70 years ago, when he went back it would have ceased existing.

    It's exactly like Window of Opportunity. O'Neill makes a recording, but when he went back in time, it ceased to exist. Baal made a time machine. When he went back, it ceased to exist.

    Since SG1 gave him the idea, it's impossible for the machine to exist before SG1 were born. This brings me back to the machine not existing when Baal went back so would need to be created again. Thus, the machine could have never existed if it was built after Baal intended to sink the gate.



  3. #23
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Unaltered
    1900---------1997-98: Stargate found, events of 1969---????: Baal creates time machine------2008: Baal uses time machine

    vvvvvvvvvvv
    TRAVELS TO:
    vvvvvvvvvvv

    Altered
    1939: Baal enters altered universe, killed on entry-----1997-98: Stargate found, events of 1969---2005-: Baal presumably never has the idea, never builds the time machine, etc.------2008: Baal is executed

    Although, having gone through it, whose to say that Baal wouldn't have had the idea a second time, in the altered universe? This is why sci-fi writers really need to nail the conceptual intricacies of time-travel writing before doing it.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Let me simplify...

    Timeline A: The original timeline. It's highly doubtful that Ba'al built that massive time machine complex and all of the satellites within two or three years as a failsafe. He never would have needed it prior to the fall of the Goa'uld. He probably didn't get the idea until after he was hiding out on Earth while the Ori Priors were popping up around the galaxy. I think it's safe to assume that he simply found a solar observatory and realized it could be used as a time machine. Reasonable, no? Regardless, Ba'al found or built a time machine. He goes back in time while his last surviving clone taunts General O'Neill and SG-1 on the Tok'ra homeworld. Everyone begins to vanish; Carter, Mitchell, and Jackson escape through the stargate...

    Timeline B: Ba'al shows up in 1939 and begins rewriting history. In the present day, what's left of SG-1 returns to Earth... in the alternate timeline. At the end of the movie, Mitchell escapes back to 1929...

    Timeline C: Mitchell arrives in 1929. Ten years later, Ba'al travels back from the future to 1939 about the Achilles where he and his Jaffa are killed by Mitchell and the ship's captain (Mitchell's grandfather). Fast forward to the present day. No one disappears, the last surviving clone boasts about Ba'al's failsafe plan anyway, and the extraction ceremony goes as planned. Ba'al still goes back to 1939 only to be shot by Cameron Mitchell, time traveler and former member of SG-1. In the present, Ba'al's time travel complex goes unknown to the SGC.

    Point is, that facility is how Ba'al went back in time to begin with. Presumably, he built an alternate timeline counterpart, the one we actually saw in the movie's climax. With the timeline restored, the one Ba'al built in the proper timeline will likely remain a mystery. Unless someone stumbles upon it via the stargate.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Most importantly, whether a time machine exists (and I'm in the "no" camp), there are no more Ba'al's to use it.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman37 View Post
    Let me simplify...

    Timeline A: The original timeline. It's highly doubtful that Ba'al built that massive time machine complex and all of the satellites within two or three years as a failsafe. He never would have needed it prior to the fall of the Goa'uld. He probably didn't get the idea until after he was hiding out on Earth while the Ori Priors were popping up around the galaxy. I think it's safe to assume that he simply found a solar observatory and realized it could be used as a time machine. Reasonable, no? Regardless, Ba'al found or built a time machine. He goes back in time while his last surviving clone taunts General O'Neill and SG-1 on the Tok'ra homeworld. Everyone begins to vanish; Carter, Mitchell, and Jackson escape through the stargate...

    Timeline B: Ba'al shows up in 1939 and begins rewriting history. In the present day, what's left of SG-1 returns to Earth... in the alternate timeline. At the end of the movie, Mitchell escapes back to 1929...

    Timeline C: Mitchell arrives in 1929. Ten years later, Ba'al travels back from the future to 1939 about the Achilles where he and his Jaffa are killed by Mitchell and the ship's captain (Mitchell's grandfather). Fast forward to the present day. No one disappears, the last surviving clone boasts about Ba'al's failsafe plan anyway, and the extraction ceremony goes as planned. Ba'al still goes back to 1939 only to be shot by Cameron Mitchell, time traveler and former member of SG-1. In the present, Ba'al's time travel complex goes unknown to the SGC.

    Point is, that facility is how Ba'al went back in time to begin with. Presumably, he built an alternate timeline counterpart, the one we actually saw in the movie's climax. With the timeline restored, the one Ba'al built in the proper timeline will likely remain a mystery. Unless someone stumbles upon it via the stargate.
    Finally! someone who understands!

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by SaberBlade View Post
    It doesn't matter that Baal built it to go back in time in the original timeline, he travelled back in time about 70 years. So unless the device was built 70 years ago, when he went back it would have ceased existing.
    It wouldn't exist in the past but Baal gets shot in the head, therefore all events unfold from then on as they should therefore future Baal will still build it and travel back in time to get shot again. Come on!

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman37 View Post
    Let me simplify...

    Timeline A: The original timeline. It's highly doubtful that Ba'al built that massive time machine complex and all of the satellites within two or three years as a failsafe. He never would have needed it prior to the fall of the Goa'uld. He probably didn't get the idea until after he was hiding out on Earth while the Ori Priors were popping up around the galaxy. I think it's safe to assume that he simply found a solar observatory and realized it could be used as a time machine. Reasonable, no? Regardless, Ba'al found or built a time machine. He goes back in time while his last surviving clone taunts General O'Neill and SG-1 on the Tok'ra homeworld. Everyone begins to vanish; Carter, Mitchell, and Jackson escape through the stargate...

    Timeline B: Ba'al shows up in 1939 and begins rewriting history. In the present day, what's left of SG-1 returns to Earth... in the alternate timeline. At the end of the movie, Mitchell escapes back to 1929...

    Timeline C: Mitchell arrives in 1929. Ten years later, Ba'al travels back from the future to 1939 about the Achilles where he and his Jaffa are killed by Mitchell and the ship's captain (Mitchell's grandfather). Fast forward to the present day. No one disappears, the last surviving clone boasts about Ba'al's failsafe plan anyway, and the extraction ceremony goes as planned. Ba'al still goes back to 1939 only to be shot by Cameron Mitchell, time traveler and former member of SG-1. In the present, Ba'al's time travel complex goes unknown to the SGC.

    Point is, that facility is how Ba'al went back in time to begin with. Presumably, he built an alternate timeline counterpart, the one we actually saw in the movie's climax. With the timeline restored, the one Ba'al built in the proper timeline will likely remain a mystery. Unless someone stumbles upon it via the stargate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asgard Flu View Post
    Finally! someone who understands!
    Maybe the writers, if the franchise would go on, would do a continuation of the story and have this mystery resolved.

    Persoanlly, I think (although my memory of the movie is rather fuzzy) that if Ba'al's time machine really did exist in the original timeline and if it still exists in the restored one, it became all rusty and had collected a lot of dust since it's last use in the altered timeline (if he was all for the secret time travel program thing, than he wouldn't time-travel from a ship or from a planet). You see, Ba'al didn't tell anyone of his time machine, perhaps not even to his clone, if he's smart. Also, he would have needed a Stargate which wouldn't be connected to the Stargate network, mentioned by Daniel in "Children of the Gods", so SG-1 wouldn't come across it. If the time machine does exist, SGC doesn't have to worry about it if somehow they find out about it, because they don't have the Stargate address which leads to it - actually, the same pretty much goes for everyone else in the Universe.

    Unless some kid from some planet or even from Earth (now that the Stargate program went public) accidentally guesses the address and somehoew, SG-1 is called to destroy the device, I think we're good.

  9. #29
    Captain Brother Freyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    The rules of this particular movie establish that changing causal events in the past does make things disappear in the future. Thus (assuming Ba'al built the device), Ba'al's death in 1939 causes the device to disappear.

    Those are the rules of this particular episode, however they conflict with other episodes in which timelines are mapped over multi-verses.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Freyr View Post
    The rules of this particular movie establish that changing causal events in the past does make things disappear in the future.
    Nope. Mitchell, Ba'al, and his Jaffa were never suppose to be in 1939. The stargate was never suppose to activate in 1939. The brief attack on the Jaffa and Ba'al were never supposed to happen in 1939. Mitchell presumably lives out his life in the past. The future at the end of the film is exactly as the beginning, only the timeline's not shifting, so Ba'al's (the clone) extraction continues without a hitch. So much for casual events changing the future...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Freyr View Post
    Thus (assuming Ba'al built the device), Ba'al's death in 1939 causes the device to disappear.
    It's assumed that Ba'al built or found his fail safe device in the proper timeline in order to go back to 1939 to begin with. His death in 1939 merely restores the timeline. Ba'al still finds or builds his fail safe device between 2006 and 2008. He uses it to go back in time to 1939 to change history. Nothing happens to the present day timeline, because Mitchell (from the original timeline) was waiting for him.

    If Ba'al didn't build his fail safe in the original timeline, please explain to me how he went back to 1939.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Freyr View Post
    Those are the rules of this particular episode, however they conflict with other episodes in which timelines are mapped over multi-verses.
    "Before I Sleep" is the only time-travel episode to imply a multi-verse. All other time-travel episodes have suggested a single timeline that can be rewritten. This is why restoring history was so critical in "Moebius" and Continuum. It's also why changing the future was so critical in "2010" and "The Last Man."

  11. #31
    Brigadier General fems's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    The only problem with saying timelines can be reset is that the extra about timetravel on the Continuum DVD more or less says they're using the explanation of multiverses...
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman37 View Post
    So much for casual events changing the future...
    I believe you're wrong, Snowman. In the beginning of the episode, people and buildings disappear because Ba'al has gone back (to 1939) and successfully changed the future.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by fems View Post
    The only problem with saying timelines can be reset is that the extra about timetravel on the Continuum DVD more or less says they're using the explanation of multiverses...
    The problem with this DVD extra is that it totally contradicts what we see in the movie. If the writers were using the explanation of the multiverse, why did everything change around SG-1? Why did Teal'c and Vala vanish? If the writers were using the multiverse, then Ba'al should have changed an identical parallel world. SG-1's world would go uneffected, and the movie would be some twenty minutes long. I thought the "Laymen's Guide to Time Travel" was really wierd, considering it outright contradicted the time-travel model used in the movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Freyr View Post
    I believe you're wrong, Snowman. In the beginning of the episode, people and buildings disappear because Ba'al has gone back (to 1939) and successfully changed the future.
    Finish reading my post before typing up a reply. I was talking about the end of the movie. You said changing casual events changes the future, but when subtle events change the past, the restored timeline is indentical to the original. It was when Ba'al changed history without Mitchell stopping him that time was drastically altered. The Stargate never arriving at the USA meant that the SGC never happened, the Goa'uld were never defeated. However, this doesn't make things disappear. Rather, the vanishing acts at the beginning of the movie were suppose to be a shifting timeline. Anyone who vanished, vanished, because he or she was either dead, never existed, or simply existed somewhere else. The city began to vanish, because it does not exist in the alternate timeline.

    Ba'al used the fail safe to go back to 1939 to begin with, so it will remain undiscovered at the end of the movie.
    Last edited by Snowman37; September 8th, 2012 at 08:02 AM.

  14. #34
    Brigadier General fems's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman37 View Post
    The problem with this DVD extra is that it totally contradicts what we see in the movie. If the writers were using the explanation of the multiverse, why did everything change around SG-1? Why did Teal'c and Vala vanish? If the writers were using the multiverse, then Ba'al should have changed an identical parallel world. SG-1's world would go uneffected, and the movie would be some twenty minutes long. I thought the "Laymen's Guide to Time Travel" was really wierd, considering it outright contradicted the time-travel model used in the movie.
    My point exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman37 View Post
    Finish reading my post before typing up a reply. I was talking about the end of the movie. You said changing casual events changes the future, but when subtle events change the past, the restored timeline is indentical to the original. It was when Ba'al changed history without Mitchell stopping him that time was drastically altered. The Stargate never arriving at the USA meant that the SGC never happened, the Goa'uld were never defeated. However, this doesn't make things disappear. Rather, the vanishing acts at the beginning of the movie were suppose to be a shifting timeline. Anyone who vanished, vanished, because he or she was either dead, never existed, or simply existed somewhere else. The city began to vanish, because it does not exist in the alternate timeline.

    Ba'al used the fail safe to go back to 1939 to begin with, so it will remain undiscovered at the end of the movie.
    No, it's not. Remember the picture in Mitchell's locker at the end? In the beginning there was just a pic of his grandfather but at the end of the movie (in the supposed identical timeline according to you) it's one of his grandfather and his past self.
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by fems View Post
    My point exactly.



    No, it's not. Remember the picture in Mitchell's locker at the end? In the beginning there was just a pic of his grandfather but at the end of the movie (in the supposed identical timeline according to you) it's one of his grandfather and his past self.
    Are you winding everyone up? the only change in the timeline at the end of the movie is that Mitchell lived in the past and appeared on that photo, everything else has gone back to normal because other than that the timeline was restored to the original and therefore Baal will build his failsafe device and go back in time and get shot. It is now a timeloop that will continue to repeat and the timeline will remain the same because of it and Baals machine will continue to exist in the future.
    Argh!

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    If Human beings are so incapable of comprehending a simple time travel plot from a movie it's no wonder the entire planet is the way it is, we really are all screwed! lol

  17. #37
    Brigadier General fems's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by Asgard Flu View Post
    Are you winding everyone up? the only change in the timeline at the end of the movie is that Mitchell lived in the past and appeared on that photo, everything else has gone back to normal because other than that the timeline was restored to the original and therefore Baal will build his failsafe device and go back in time and get shot. It is now a timeloop that will continue to repeat and the timeline will remain the same because of it and Baals machine will continue to exist in the future.
    Argh!
    No, apparently just you.

    I was simply pointing out that not everything is identical and really, can we judge if everything (apart from Mitchell's picture) is the same merely from seeing part of an extraction ceremony and their trip home?
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Quote Originally Posted by fems View Post
    can we judge if everything (apart from mitchell's picture) is the same merely from seeing part of an extraction ceremony and their trip home?
    yes!

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Remember "Moebius," folks? There were bigger changes to history further in the past. The restored timeline matched up with the original. Why should we expect anything different here?

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Baal's Time Machine On Praxia

    Well it seems that when I posted my previous comment I forget that Teal'c was in an alternate timeline when he destroyed thhat machine. Well then it is really out there to find some thay. I bet if there would have been a new movie that plothole would have been dealt with in some way or another. So nobody remembers except the other counterpart of Mitchell who lived in the past, but he is dead already. He maybe left clues though in some way. Maybe in a book for Daniel Jackson to stumble upon one day. Because he is always that guy to find those things. I bet it would give SG-1 quite a headache to conclude that the time travel machine must still exist and must be destroyed to prevent futher misuse.
    I'm just sorry that we probably won't see any of it made to film.

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