When Push Comes to Shove (204)

[GateWorld]

ALPHAS SEASON TWO WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE EPISODE NUMBER - 204 In the midst of a personal crisis Nina goes on a crime spree with her childhood sweetheart, turning her powers against her former team. VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >

[Commander Zelix]

Fantastic episode this week. I can see how pushing people could become an addiction and create a lot of misery. Kat is a nice addition as a character but somehow I wished she would forgot some of her past abilities and constantly needed to study them. So her ability is not too powerful. I'm glad Alphas retained most of it's tone this season and didn't become some kind of Eureka (which is good but something else).

[ZeroPoint]

On Nina : I was given the impression she was using the car windows to "push" herself into feeling what she wanted to feel. Hope that means she has to ease back into pushing. I can see her talking with Gary to discuss their feelings of loss. It may be the case where she could push Gary to focus on the good feelings he had with Anna instead of her loss, which could help Gary, and give a more giving use of her abilities.

On Kat: For what Zelix said, if she would have to constantly study to retain talents, then she would have to remember why she has to constantly study them, which she can't. There are several methods that can be used to help long term memory loss, but Kat doesn't seem to care much about memory retention. I guess for field work, she'd either have to have time and information (unlikely) to review tapes for the skills needed, or just rely on the leftovers of prior trainings (quite likely).

On "blonde guy" (Steve?) : I'd like a more consistent treatment of the character, else I'll maintain that he's a mole. Is he a real member of the team, or part of Clay's group to avoid? Since he was included on the mission, he'd be a member of the team, but he isn't part of the discussions, and nobody seemed to care that he got shot (not even Rachel). Him saying it was only a flesh wound still would have made Rosen want to check it anyway.

[Gollumpus]

This was a solid episode, with some very good scenes.

The Rosen/Nina scene at the end was not surprising, but regardless, was very well done.

There were some things provided by the creators which I had not previously considered, something which I found quite pleasant.

1.) Nina being able to push herself was something which, in 20/20 hindsight, makes perfect sense. It would have been interesting to see how Rosen would have been written to react if Nina had endangered Danielle. Would he still be the understanding therapist, the angry and protective dad, or something in between?

I imagine there will be some form of boundary discussion between Rachel and Nina at some future point.

2.) Giving "Blonde Guy" a disfigurement was an angle which I had not considered. I was assuming that the creators would go with a more cliche reason for him and Rachel not "getting together", and I am pleased to say that I was wrong.

This doesn't mean that he couldn't be a mole, of course.

3.) Kat. She is a very fun and precocious character. It will be interesting to see if she can do more than, "Whoa, I know Kung Fu!" Can she actually pick up any alpha abilities? I'm assuming part of her alpha ability allows for her to gain some sort of "muscle memory" so she could actually do some of the martial arts we saw in "Alpha Dogs" without popping a joint. She might not be able to amp up like Bill, or push someone like Nina, but might she be able to do something similar to Hicks?

It will be interesting to see what happens if and when the brain change happens. Will she stay the same character, or will she suddenly become a whole new individual?

I don't recall exactly how Kat described her alpha ability.

I would imagine that Kat is constantly gaining and losing information with each passing moment, kind of like a six week long conveyor belt. New stuff gets put on, old stuff drops off the other end, and since she learns new things very quickly, she would never be in a situation of knowing advanced calculus, but forgetting basic arithmetic (perhaps a bad example, but I hope you get the idea). This could allow for her to retain most of her current personality without too much of a change.

A static time period, wouldn't make any sense (IMHO). Imagine her brain as a container. Anything learned in a six week period would go into the bin. At the end of the sixth week the container would empty and anything inside would be gone. Might this option permit the possibility of a complete personality change?

Spoiler:

And could this make her a mole?

I'm wondering at the extent of Kat's skill loss. Image she was locked in a room, without any kind of information coming in (other people, TV, radio, internet, etc), for the approximately six weeks(?) it takes for her brain to flush out what she already knows. What would happen to her?

4.) Hicks. It will be interesting to see if there is any kind of awkward moment arises with him and Danielle with regard to him perhaps just being a friend to Nina, or maybe something more.


regards,
G.

[Achiles]

From the dialogue it sounded more like a static time and at the 6 week mark she would just forget everything except for maybe her muscle memory stuff.

[Gollumpus]

From the dialogue it sounded more like a static time and at the 6 week mark she would just forget everything except for maybe her muscle memory stuff.

Yeah, I have a recollection similar to yours, and to me it's the less favorable option. How could she function without having a teacher available to get her re-started?

It must be heck for her to keep trying to learn basic language skills and the like all over again. Even if she is a fast leaner, if she's starting from square one she has no frame of reference. She might be able to pick up a book written in English, but if she doesn't know how to speak English, or the sounds of the alphabet, what good does it do her?

From the sounds of it, she has never tried to do anything similar to what Rosen has suggested she do with the camera. If it is a static event, I would assume she must have done something to help herself to get re-started with language and other basics (heck, just leave the TV on with "Sesame Street" playing, something, anything).

Unless they are going to go a semi-complete memory dump, and she only loses enough knowledge of things like martial arts, Rosen's records and Gary screaming in the morning, but keeps her language skills etc.

regards,
G.

[ZeroPoint]

Yeah, I have a recollection similar to yours, and to me it's the less favorable option. How could she function without having a teacher available to get her re-started?

It must be heck for her to keep trying to learn basic language skills and the like all over again. <snip>

I don't expect the writers to have studied people with memory loss, so they are taking liberties for creative writing. Sometimes this stomps on reality though.

How would Kat even know here NAME? Will she not know Bill in 6 weeks? I don't feel the conveyor analogy is accurate, because her short term memory can be refreshed.

I consider her memory loss to be more like her memories are sinking in a swamp and will take 6 weeks to submerge and be lost forever unless she pulls up some of them. Some is automatic (like her name). It could take effort to retain other memories or sort through what is really needed, and sometimes there just isn't enough time/effort available to retain them and something gets lost. Real people who have limited long term memory use notes or recordings to refresh short term memory on a consistent basis.

I would like to note that we haven't seen Kat clone any Alpha abilities. She's watched video. If she can copy abilities, then find her someone with eidetic memory as an Alpha ability, right now. I think her abilities are muscle memory only, not power-cloning.

[Gollumpus]

I don't expect the writers to have studied people with memory loss, so they are taking liberties for creative writing. Sometimes this stomps on reality though.

How would Kat even know here NAME? Will she not know Bill in 6 weeks? I don't feel the conveyor analogy is accurate, because her short term memory can be refreshed.

I consider her memory loss to be more like her memories are sinking in a swamp and will take 6 weeks to submerge and be lost forever unless she pulls up some of them. Some is automatic (like her name). It could take effort to retain other memories or sort through what is really needed, and sometimes there just isn't enough time/effort available to retain them and something gets lost. Real people who have limited long term memory use notes or recordings to refresh short term memory on a consistent basis.

I would like to note that we haven't seen Kat clone any Alpha abilities. She's watched video. If she can copy abilities, then find her someone with eidetic memory as an Alpha ability, right now. I think her abilities are muscle memory only, not power-cloning.

Good ideas.

1.) True, the writers may not have done much studying up, or maybe they've gone in the wrong direction? What Kat's ability sounds the similar to from anything in Nature (from my limited experience in the area), are caching birds. These critters add neurons in the late summer and through to spring to facilitate them being able to find food caches which they have set up.

Perhaps they are linking her ability to that of these critters.


2.) I get what your meaning is here ( I think), and I believe we're talking the same thing. As time goes past my views are evolving.

Going with the conveyor belt model (or your swamp), on day one let's assume Kat is shown a picture of Bill and is given his name. If she does not see that picture again or is given any input to refresh her memory of Bill, he will be forgotten in six weeks (drops off the end of the belt, or sinks).

However, if she sees the picture of Bill, and her memory is refreshed each day that this is a picture of Bill, might she not remember Bill indefinitely? The memory of Bill would be put back at the start of the belt (or rather that she "pulled it up") and the six week cycle for it would start again.

The bin idea suggests that any given thought, memory or idea is retained for a total of six weeks and then it's gone. It can't be refreshed even by daily contact. It would surprise me if, in a few episodes, Kat can't remember anyone or even her own name.

3.) Yeah, we haven't seen anything like Kat applying her ability to something another alpha can do. And I agree with your comments. One description of her ability is that it involves procedural memories used to pick up cognitive skills (and also involves motor skills), while declarative memories is where she loses anything she has learned.

This being said, wouldn't Kat be able to learn languages with her ability? If so, couldn't she mimic Anna's ability, and might she have been able to talk directly to Anna?

regards,
G.

[ZeroPoint]

Good ideas.

1.) True, the writers may not have done much studying up, or maybe they've gone in the wrong direction? What Kat's ability sounds the similar to from anything in Nature (from my limited experience in the area), are caching birds. These critters add neurons in the late summer and through to spring to facilitate them being able to find food caches which they have set up.

Perhaps they are linking her ability to that of these critters.


2.) I get what your meaning is here ( I think), and I believe we're talking the same thing. As time goes past my views are evolving.

Going with the conveyor belt model (or your swamp), on day one let's assume Kat is shown a picture of Bill and is given his name. If she does not see that picture again or is given any input to refresh her memory of Bill, he will be forgotten in six weeks (drops off the end of the belt, or sinks).

However, if she sees the picture of Bill, and her memory is refreshed each day that this is a picture of Bill, might she not remember Bill indefinitely? The memory of Bill would be put back at the start of the belt (or rather that she "pulled it up") and the six week cycle for it would start again.

The bin idea suggests that any given thought, memory or idea is retained for a total of six weeks and then it's gone. It can't be refreshed even by daily contact. It would surprise me if, in a few episodes, Kat can't remember anyone or even her own name.

3.) Yeah, we haven't seen anything like Kat applying her ability to something another alpha can do. And I agree with your comments. One description of her ability is that it involves procedural memories used to pick up cognitive skills (and also involves motor skills), while declarative memories is where she loses anything she has learned.

This being said, wouldn't Kat be able to learn languages with her ability? If so, couldn't she mimic Anna's ability, and might she have been able to talk directly to Anna?

regards,
G.

With the swamp, I was just trying to have a better analogy than the conveyor belt. If memories can be repositioned on the conveyer, then the analogies are close enough to not be a difference.

Bah.... Since this is conjecture mode about her ability, she could probably learn anything (including long term memory retention) if it can be linked to motor skills, since those aren't limited to the 6 week window. That could be an easy explanation for why she doesn't lose language words, in that the act of speaking (muscle action) refreshes word memory.

[ZeroPoint]

Wanted to clear up some topics by rewatching the last two shows.

Stated time limits for Kat's memory are variable. Being rescued in the lab, she says she won't remember this in "2 weeks". In Rosen's office, she says "about a month". With Bill she says "6 weeks maximum".

Blonde Guy's name is John Bennett. Anybody conjecture why Rachel freaked a bit seeing the scar, since she saw something, but what? I'd still like a better character definition of him.

I hate paying attention too much when watching shows, since I then see scene inconsistencies.

[Gollumpus]

Stated time limits for Kat's memory are variable. Being rescued in the lab, she says she won't remember this in "2 weeks". In Rosen's office, she says "about a month". With Bill she says "6 weeks maximum".

I believe you are correct on this. Now what does it mean? Do certain types of memories last longer? Or does Kat forget just how long she can remember something? It will be interesting to see just how her condition is explained.

Blonde Guy's name is John Bennett. Anybody conjecture why Rachel freaked a bit seeing the scar, since she saw something, but what? I'd still like a better character definition of him.

Yup. "Blonde Guy".

I suspect that what was going in that scene is Rachel automatically scoped in with her sight ability (completely involuntary on her part) and she reacted to the condition of his skin with a shocked expression. Him, being a bit sensitive and self-conscious about it was hurt by her reaction.

Hopefully he just doesn't become a "convenient" character, someone who comes in to play his role in one episode but is then forgotten by the writers of the following episode. (steps up on soapbox) He is supposed to be filling a significant role with the team and I would expect him to at least be mentioned in each episode, even if it's, "Hey, where's Blonde Guy?" "He's still on that stake-out/in a meeting/gone to Washington/resting in the hospital from that gunshot wound/on vacation/etc. He should be accounted for, and there should be a stated reason why he is not in a given episode. (climbs off soap-box)

regards,
G.