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SGU, by far the most underrated series.

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    #91
    Originally posted by Deevil View Post
    Because you have offered so much reasoning?
    Well yes, actually. You won't find any assertions from me in this thread that I haven't offered reasoning for. I don't think anyone minds critique, but I don't think you can expect people to accept broad matter-of-fact claims about structural scripting faults without at least offering some examples, or reasoning as to why they're faults to begin with.

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      #92
      Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

      I found SGU to be a breath of fresh air, and although not perfect, as nothing is, I found no significant faults in it's "execution".
      sigpic

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        #93
        Originally posted by jeri View Post
        Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

        I found SGU to be a breath of fresh air, and although not perfect, as nothing is, I found no significant faults in it's "execution".
        And as I've said a hundred times, if you like what you see and don't care about the rest more power to ya.

        KEK - mate you just don't appear to want to hear anything against the show because you like it, which is fine. But don't pretend there has been nothing offered in critique, and that you assert actions have been 'backed up'. Mind you, I don't think you have to back up why you like he show, so it doesn't much matter either way.
        Disclaimer: All opinions stated within this post are relevant to the author herself, and do not in any way represent the opinions of God, Country, The Powers That Be or Greater Fandom.

        Any resemblance to aforementioned opinions are purely coincidental.

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
          Gatefan, Deevil,

          So, Ulysses is by your defintion, poorly written because it does not use accepted tropes to tell the story in that novel?
          iwouldconsideritabadnovelifitignoredstandardstructuressuchasspacingpunctuationpa ragraphstructureandsuchtheactualcontentandstoryisentirelyuptothereadertodetermin eiftheyenjoyitandnoonehasyettosaythatpeoplemaynothaveenjoyedsgujustthewayitwas
          sigpic
          ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
          A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
          The truth isn't the truth

          Comment


            #95
            Originally posted by Deevil View Post
            KEK - mate you just don't appear to want to hear anything against the show because you like it, which is fine. But don't pretend there has been nothing offered in critique, and that you assert actions have been 'backed up'. Mind you, I don't think you have to back up why you like he show, so it doesn't much matter either way.
            I thought we weren't talking about likes and dislikes, but supposedly objective failures in the structure of the script(s)? If you're going to assert that they're there, and go so far as to imply ignorance on the part of people who don't believe they belong in art, then I think the least you can do is offer some examples and reasoning behind them. It's more than a fair request, and somewhat disingenuous to try and dismiss it as me 'not wanting to hear anything against the show'. I'm not even sure what one would have to do with the other were that even true...

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              #96
              Originally posted by Deevil View Post
              And as I've said a hundred times, if you like what you see and don't care about the rest more power to ya.

              KEK - mate you just don't appear to want to hear anything against the show because you like it, which is fine. But don't pretend there has been nothing offered in critique, and that you assert actions have been 'backed up'. Mind you, I don't think you have to back up why you like he show, so it doesn't much matter either way.
              I do care about "the rest". I disagree with your assessment.

              You seem to be blind to my point, let me clarify as best I can. My intention is not to fight but I find your attitude insulting in that no matter what, you insist the show was badly done; it's only your opinion, not an objective fact that must be acknowledged by everyone. I don't really care whether you like the show (or any show) or not, what I care about is the idea that you are assuming that my opinion is somehow less valid than yours because it is subjective. Your opinion is also subjective, your pretense that it is not is what bothers me, like you are somehow superior in your critical judgement?
              sigpic

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                #97
                Originally posted by jeri View Post
                I do care about "the rest". I disagree with your assessment.

                You seem to be blind to my point, let me clarify as best I can. My intention is not to fight but I find your attitude insulting in that no matter what, you insist the show was badly done; it's only your opinion, not an objective fact that must be acknowledged by everyone. I don't really care whether you like the show (or any show) or not, what I care about is the idea that you are assuming that my opinion is somehow less valid than yours because it is subjective. Your opinion is also subjective, your pretense that it is not is what bothers me, like you are somehow superior in your critical judgement?
                I don't think I'm superior, I'm just discussing issues I know extremely well as we are talkin about things that are to do with my job. So I may be more picky than is necessary. Also, I don't mind if you disagree with me and not take anything I sy as
                'fact', I'm truely sorry if I made you think that.

                On the topic the OP brought to the table, with all is technical faults I cannot find it 'underrated'. Ignoring the technical faults, which some are appearing to do, makes it 'overrated'. In the end, subjectively, it does come down to hat you like and don't like - I am just critiquing the technical and writing things that helped hold it back from being the masterpiece it had the *potential* of being. And yes, the fact that it didn't live up to that potential annoyed the hell out of me, if that's what you mean by subjective well yes I am, but the technical issues are still issues irrespective of whether they annoyed me or not.

                ETA: I don't think the whole show was horribly done BTW. There were some amazing miss-en-scene to be seen. I give a lot of the production crew a hell of a lot of credit for what we see on screen. I don't hate the show by any means, but I'll concede something - the execution isn't the problem. Execution was well done, the conception (scripting) was the bigger problem.

                KEK: Mate, there comes a time where we define insanity and we're there. I don't have time to itemise every technical issue in every way for every episode and why it's a problem, just like you don't have time to read it all. I gave a few points, accept them as you will. Enjoy the show as you do... Alls good. But I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
                Last edited by Deevil; 17 June 2012, 09:32 PM.
                Disclaimer: All opinions stated within this post are relevant to the author herself, and do not in any way represent the opinions of God, Country, The Powers That Be or Greater Fandom.

                Any resemblance to aforementioned opinions are purely coincidental.

                Comment


                  #98
                  I've got to agree with Deevil and Gatefan here. If you don't believe them, crack open any textbook on the history of narrative film. It's a language with widely understood standard forms. Art more generally has rules too, and art criticism discusses how a work conforms to, and deviates from, from those rules.

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by KEK View Post
                    I thought we weren't talking about likes and dislikes, but supposedly objective failures in the structure of the script(s)?
                    Hmm what would you like to hear?
                    That the characters do not coninuously grow?
                    That for every step forward in thier personalities there are steps backwards?
                    Take Chole or Eli for example.
                    In some episodes they hit an "epiphany moment", yet in the very next episode, that growth seems to be lost? (much as what happened in SGA with Mckay)
                    Difference is, SGA is 22 arguablely *stand alone* eps, whereas SGU is supposed to be a narrative. As a continuous narrative, higher standards apply to characterization and continuity. What I forgive in, umm..... "bubblegum scifi" I will NOT is a serialized narrative.
                    If you're going to assert that they're there, and go so far as to imply ignorance
                    ROTFLMFAO!!!
                    Did you HONESTLY play that card after all the "people just don't get it" dross you have been pushing for 2 years??

                    on the part of people who don't believe they belong in art, then I think the least you can do is offer some examples and reasoning behind them. It's more than a fair request, and somewhat disingenuous to try and dismiss it as me 'not wanting to hear anything against the show'. I'm not even sure what one would have to do with the other were that even true...
                    Explain within a structure that ignores personal perception why SGU is "so good"
                    Every impartial measuring stick that is applied to SGU shows it to be a failure, why is it so good?

                    NOTE:
                    I am not trying to upset SGU fans here, if you like it, cool, I've got NO problem with that at all.
                    sigpic
                    ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
                    A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
                    The truth isn't the truth

                    Comment


                      Gatefan,

                      My point is that Ulysses is consider a classic because it does things differently. Therefore, I find it hard to beleive that any form of Art can be judged objectively. Hell, Kim Stanley Robinson's new book 2312 is doing some creative things with standard narrative structure. Art is very difficult to look at objectively.
                      All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

                      "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
                        Gatefan,

                        My point is that Ulysses is consider a classic because it does things differently. Therefore, I find it hard to beleive that any form of Art can be judged objectively. Hell, Kim Stanley Robinson's new book 2312 is doing some creative things with standard narrative structure. Art is very difficult to look at objectively.
                        I don't entirely disagree with you, yet I so do (hows that for confusion). You can't judge whether or nit you like something objectively, you can judge and/or discuss how a text is structured. How that structure works or doesn't work in what is being created, or attempting to be stated. That is objective, or should be.

                        Circumventing structure is not a bad thing, doing things differently, telling a different narrative. Creating a new way to film, an experimental piece... But some of these things don't get their message across, and not because people are to stupid to get it, bu simply because the created missed the mark.

                        In the case of SGU specifically, they weren't reinventing the wheel. They weren't using a different storytelling technique that had never been used before. They were trying a very traditional, serialised narrative and they fell short in some of the requirements of that structure.
                        Last edited by Deevil; 18 June 2012, 03:33 AM.
                        Disclaimer: All opinions stated within this post are relevant to the author herself, and do not in any way represent the opinions of God, Country, The Powers That Be or Greater Fandom.

                        Any resemblance to aforementioned opinions are purely coincidental.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
                          Hmm what would you like to hear?
                          That the characters do not coninuously grow?
                          That for every step forward in thier personalities there are steps backwards?
                          Take Chole or Eli for example.
                          In some episodes they hit an "epiphany moment", yet in the very next episode, that growth seems to be lost? (much as what happened in SGA with Mckay)
                          Difference is, SGA is 22 arguablely *stand alone* eps, whereas SGU is supposed to be a narrative. As a continuous narrative, higher standards apply to characterization and continuity. What I forgive in, umm..... "bubblegum scifi" I will NOT is a serialized narrative.
                          What I'd like to hear are some examples and some reasoning behind them. I don't think it's too much to ask. You can't make the assertion that these faults are there, and then just expect everyone to take your word for it without backing up your argument.

                          ROTFLMFAO!!!
                          Did you HONESTLY play that card after all the "people just don't get it" dross you have been pushing for 2 years??
                          I haven't pushed that, that's just the way you seem to have chosen to interpret it, making any argument I make conveniently much easier to dismiss I'm sure.

                          Explain within a structure that ignores personal perception why SGU is "so good"
                          Every impartial measuring stick that is applied to SGU shows it to be a failure, why is it so good?
                          I've never argued that SGU is objectively good, or indeed "objectively" anything, quite the opposite, in fact.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
                            Umm, Have you ever attended an English class?
                            Both Dee and I are talking about *scriptwriting*, nothing else.
                            So are you trying to be insulting or does it come naturally. I know of what you both speak of, we suffered through it in many classes. At the end of the day its just another fallible & failed human attempt to communicate. Artists learned this a long time ago. We refer to it as "The Bankruptcy of Language" and that includes Film language too. THERE IS NO STRUCTURE other than what man impose in a vain but valiant attempt to communicate. There are no meanings to these ‘words’ other than what we agree them to mean at that time. Then you try and translate that into another culture and you will see just how utterly F#$%ed up it all becomes.

                            I would suggest to you again that these mechanisms you speak of and try to use are by-products of industry attempts to systematize the medium into a formula [equation] to control it for profit motive. It has nothing really to do with the ‘work’ as art. At every point that something new appears someone has broken these rules you speak of to get there.
                            SGU. Best Sci-fi show to come along in decades.

                            Comment


                              psl1: I'd happily engage in a philosophy debate with you elsewhere, but given that we are talking within a structure (the English language) and using it to communicate, I'd say the point on structure has been confirmed.

                              And yes, different countries have different languages, which is probably why eastern horror movies are considered by many scarier. This has a lot to do with how we read the screen, which is closely based to how we read a book... But that's really by the by. The truth is if all artists freewheel it as you suggest, there will be no meaning or understanding. Those artists who do freewheel do it with purpose, with understanding and meaning and when done well the meaning is more be powerful because it is different, because it shocks and awes and because it's done for that purpose.
                              Disclaimer: All opinions stated within this post are relevant to the author herself, and do not in any way represent the opinions of God, Country, The Powers That Be or Greater Fandom.

                              Any resemblance to aforementioned opinions are purely coincidental.

                              Comment


                                Actually the point that’s being made is that in spite of all these short comings, this show actually works. For me I still can't bring myself to watch SG1 and SGA. They are just to lame for me but SGU actually works ,rules or not. Infact that is one of the ways you define great work- that it works in spite of the rules. You are going to have to accept that these scripting rules that you live by are at best transitory in nature.At best you are going to have to play catch up to keep up with us.

                                I spoke with my son who is a script writer and he confirmed my suspicions. These rules are industry generated to develop formulae to try to mass produce quality. The rules are only valid until someone breaks them and makes it work in the medium of choice.

                                In game design those games that break these rules become the breakthrough games that everyone wants to play and everyone keeps. Funny thing is those games also often are not big sellers because they are only really appreciate by the aficionados in the field. A niche market.

                                For anyone who wants to examine stream of consciousness in other mediums look at music. Artist like Bob Dylan, David Byrne , Peter Gabriel , U2 , Jethro Tull & YES etc have all used it successfully. Hell Even Cream’s "tales of Brave Ulysses" is stream of consciousness and it works!!!

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8hLc_nqx8g

                                I would let it all go if not for the fact that this type of industry formulization of the medium & the genre have suffocated and killed the originality in Syfi in the past. They will do it again.
                                Last edited by psl1; 18 June 2012, 11:35 PM.
                                SGU. Best Sci-fi show to come along in decades.

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