2)"He'd be killed if he tried to escape" not if Robb's army where protecting him
Yoren's death illustrates that the Watch cannot be legally made to give up one of their own. The Lannisters aren't after Arya when they attack Yoren's group, they're after Gendry, and once someone has been given to the Watch, no one can legally take them back. Now the Lannisters might not care, but the Northern Lords do, and wouldn't support Robb in such a venture, even less so if Ned was sent by ship to the Wall, as that would mean they'd have to march thousands of miles north, leaving the Riverlands exposed to the Lannisters, and attack the Wall, a rather suicidal task.
And if you aren't trolling, might I suggest you find a programme that is a little less intellectually taxing for you.
Here is a map if you need it. No walking through northern lands, no lords or armies to get through.
Here is a better map. Because its awesome.
And once more, Joffery is a psychopath, a sadist. Its clear for all to see. Spoiling a child doesnt turn them into that. He is mentally ill. If you want to look at possible causes for that, then consider his parentage. And given the era in which GoT is set, consider how many times in his bloodline (direct or otherwise) blood relatives have had children together. All the Lannisters i've seen dont exactly look like they come from a very diverse gene pool. And before you say it, no, i havent read the books, so im not talking about the book character.
Last edited by Ukko; April 26th, 2012 at 07:28 AM.
As for getting Ned to the wall. The north has only one major harbour and even that is not all that big. So besides fisher boats and such their naval power is weak at best. So Cersei could simply have shipped Ned to Eastwatch like Tyrion did with Jannos Slynt. The land route might have been a bit trickier. Robb and his northman could have blocked the way for Yoren at several points, if they were so inclined. Since they don't regard Joffrey as the rightful king they might have decided that Ned wasn't bound by any oath given to the iron throne.
This is a moot point though. Just look at how Ned acted throughout season one. He was a man of his word, a man of utmost integrity and honour. He would have upheld his oath regardless of the circumstances surrounding it. He publicly named himself a traitor to the realm, Joffrey his rightful king and swore to take the black. Eddard Stark would have gone to the wall and no one could have swayed him of that I am certain.
You bring up inbreeding, it's also an issue with the Targarians. Dany's brother was nuts, and her father was 'mad king targarian'.
when you have a 'lord and fiefs' set up you have a small pool of lords that inbreed and eventually reproduce themselves to death. their gene pool gets worse and worse.
Joff is a mean spirited child who's madness has come into full bloom.
The maps show how close Eastwacth is to the ocean, the good map names it "Eastwatch by the sea". The space between that and the ocean would be like the space between my front door and the house opposite me...except sandy. If it got any closer, it would be in the sea.
Yoren only took Arya to get her out of Kings Landing and home. Maybe that wasn't made clear in the show but in the book he recognized her (that's why he shielded her from seeing Ned beheaded). He cut her hair and dressed her as a boy and told her to act like a boy. His plans were to pass by winterfell on the way to the wall and drop her off.
As to Ned taking the black, it's a common refuge for high born to take. You'll find that there are other highborn men on the wall. It's a debtor's prison, a place for second and third sons (that'll never inherit) a place to dump unwnted children (like Sam, who was sent after his father had another son, IIRC, to make a clear line of succession)
It's analogous to the priesthood of old, a place to send/dump/hide the unwanted and inconvenient. Hence why once they make their vows and take the black they can't leave, under pain of death. You saw in the first episode, Ned himself beheaded the deserter.
Now, I suppose, once Ned got there, before he took his vows he could be allowed to leave, however I'm sure Cersei had him promise - and planned to do it in front of the crowd ' Ned stark, I will let you live if you choose to take the black', he'd either agree or die. and once he agreed in front of thousands he'd never go back on it.
You are moving the goal posts. First they cant take Ned to the wall because they would have to trek across the north through his own lands. Thats been proved wrong, so now they cant do it because the 2 minute walk from boat to Eastwatch has enough space to hold a hundred people.....
Ships full of Lannister soldiers would have no trouble with a hundred men. Ned, having given his word (and his children being in the hands of the Lannisters), wouldnt allow himself to be freed.
And since you have been ignoring this point the whole time, I'll repeat it once more:
What makes you think that Eddard would go back on his word and not join the Nightswatch after giving his word to take the black ?
You are arguing the toss and moving the goal posts despite people explaining things to you over and over again.
What the 6 feet of gangplank from the ship to the dock? Eastwatch is a fortified port on the far Eastern Edge of the Wall, run by the Nightswatch. There is no gap, you step off the ship, into one of the Watch's forts.yes there is, in the space between where the ships docked and actual entrance
All of his men are with him, in the Riverlands, thousands of miles away from the wall. And he desperately needs all of them to fight the Lannisters who outnumber him 3 to 1.robb could send some of his 1000s of men if he doesn't want to go personally to
The Nightswatch. It's part of their rules, you desert, they execute you.who by?
Yoren's actions prove he will fight anyone who tries to take those in the custody of the Nightswatch, that includes Northerners as well.Yoren's actions prove their more then willing to go against them sometimes
Sorry can I have that in english please. What's a "hual"?if Yoren's hual is considered so bloody sacred how come he didn't think twice about putting a girl in it
If you're talking about Yoren taking Arya with him, then he's doing Ned Stark a small favour, a far cry from the crime of letting a criminal given to the Watch go. As an ostensibly neutral party, and with the Lannisters having no idea Arya is in his care, Yoren's group is the best way to travel across war torn Westeros.
So he should send some of his men, the men he desperately needs to fight the Lannisters with, who already outnumber him? He should further deplete his force, have them march thousands of miles north, and try and assault the wall, which seeing as how with you suggestion that Robb only send a portion of his men, would be even more suicidal.he doesn't have to send all his men
And the Northern Lords, who are big into honour and supporting the Nightswatch are really going to support fighting them are they?
In addition to the silliness of Robb rallying the troops to 'save' Ned....none of them would participate. A man that promises to go to the wall, his promise is sacred. None of them would do it. ANd once word got out, that Robb would flout the rules of centuries to save his father and dishonor the sacredness of the vow, he'd be exposed as an oathbreaker and he'd lose all his support.
There is no going through any territory controlled by Robb stark, whose soldiers are thousands of miles away.What the 6 feet of gangplank from the ship to the dock? Eastwatch is a fortified port on the far Eastern Edge of the Wall, run by the Nightswatch. There is no gap, you step off the ship, into one of the Watch's forts.
Nothing is special about them. I am just pointing out that a couple of boats full of them would have no problem with 100 men.
You are assuming Ned has any idea Jamie had been captured. Ned did what he did to save his daughters. That's the only reason he would go back and publicly declare Joffery is his rightful king. Ned believes his oath matters. Ned, respects the Night's Watch. Once he'd given his oath he'd keep it. If he attempted to desert he would expect to be killed by his former bannermen.2) the Lannisters wouldn't have killed his daughter for fear of the Starks killing jaime
Ned was not someone who skulked in the dark attempting to betray those who had wronged him. Ned wanted a stand up fight. That is why he got his hiney wipped at the "Game of Thrones". He lost because he cared about the innocent. He cared about his word.
No. The just to the South of the Wall is called "the Gift". It is not part of the Stark Fiefdom. It was given to the Night's Watch, by the Starks, thousands of years ago. The North still honors the Nights Watch and would not send troops to grab a man from Eastwatch by the Sea. Nor would Ned consent to being grabbed."You are moving the goal posts" that the wall is in the north and that Robb has control of the north has always been the core of my argument
Last edited by Ser Scot A Ellison; April 30th, 2012 at 05:51 AM.
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