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  1. #121
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    While true, most processes such as integrated circuit chips, would not be known by any of the crew. They could still describe, while being recorded by the kino, what they do know of it. these memories while not knowing the exact process would point future generations in the right direction.
    It is unfortunate, however they didn't warn them the pitfalls of organized religion.(Futurans) Then again it looks like they did avoid their version of the Dark ages.

    I can see Eli recording the sequence of technology development on the kino's to give them a leg up. Basic things like as was stated before about the structure of atoms, the periodic tables, the danger of radio active materials,(bet Madam Curie wished she had known of this). Just with the order in which technologies were delevopled on Earth would be a great boost.
    the thing about farming is at some point during the season, there is nothing more you can do but wait on the crops to grow. During this period they could work on getting basic technologies off the ground. A water mill, or wid mills are pretty basic machines, with those two items they would have energy to produce better tech.
    I also think that their focus would not be so much of space travel, but rather medical tech due to TJ's condition, and subsequent death from it. They were centuries ahead on that front.

  2. #122
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Having the knowledge though is meaningless if they can't find the resources to make it work.. such as knowing what medicine can do won't do dick, if they can't make the drugs.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    You can know as much about iron smelting and steel manufacture as you like but if there's no ore... ditto for the plant species which go into so many early drugs.

  4. #124
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizziard View Post
    You can know as much about iron smelting and steel manufacture as you like but if there's no ore... ditto for the plant species which go into so many early drugs.
    Iron is so absurdly common.

    Since Novus is pristine, ore can literally just be found on the surface.

    As to plants: yes that's true. However, some knowledge is a lot more useful later (e.g. the finer aspects of how gravity works).

  5. #125
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    Iron is so absurdly common.
    On Earth, yes. On other planets?

  6. #126
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Im no expert but as far as im aware Iron common throughout the universe.

  7. #127
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizziard View Post
    On Earth, yes. On other planets?
    Iron is extremely common throughout the universe. If a planet is rocky, it's got iron. (gas giants are a different story, but might have an iron core too).

    I mean, entire planet's cores are made of it. Every rocky planet in the solar system has an iron core. On a pristine world, you'll be tripping over it since normal meteoric iron (iron from meteorites) has never been gathered. On earth, we have to resort to increasingly deeper mines but on something like an alien habitable planet, you'd be finding it everywhere.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    novus was much more advanced than normal earth and their space tech also was pretty advanced, more than us(outside the stargate saga).

    building such a big society takes time from a few dozen to millions and i am sure their science is a lot ahead than that of ours. But ofcourse without books and records, it was mostly eli's knowledge that did it and eli knew nothing of material gathering or manufacturing ships and computers or a 100 other things like that. Others might have taught as well but most of the knowledge was recreated.

  9. #129
    First Lieutenant McAvoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    The thing is that they started from scratch. How many of them can make something from scratch into anything remotely modern? They have the technical knowhow of what to do and how to do it. But here is the issue: They know how to make electricity. Even I know how to. But they do not have the technology or the equipment to make such things yet.

    They have to find a fuel. So temporarily they use wood. It will take time for them to find oil or coal that requires a lot of land surveying. That source may be hundreds of miles away. So they use wood. That means they need to manufacture a boiler. That is basically what a old style train is BTW. So you have to create a boiler that will handle certain temperatures and pressures. Thankfully wood fueled boilers do produce a lot of that. But that still requires a foundry that can create half decent steel. A lot of trial and error will happen before they produce their first batch of good steel.

    Next is the engine, the thing that actually produces electricity. It will need a certain amount of technical expertise in accurate machining. So you have to create the machine to do the machining. Otherwise you are doing it by hand. Copper has to be spun, so there is another machine that needs to be made.

    But let's assume they made their first power plant. What are they going to power? Lightbulbs? Ok, now they need to make the glass and filaments to make the light bulbs on top of the actual lamp that needs to be made, not to mention the infrastructure.

    That is just electricity. All of that requires manpower. Manpower which is in the dozens at most. Farming takes up a lot of manpower without machines. All tools have to be hand made. Anyone can go to museum that houses many of the stuff that people used prior to the Civil War to see that every single tool is practically hand made.

    Now we get to the more technical stuff. Computers. It will take awhile for them reinvent it all. By this time, Destiny's crew is long dead and Eli's notes just says it can be done (which is a big step) but they have to reinvent it. Highly doubt Eli will be able to fully draw out a working computer.

    This is in absence of war and natural disasters like disease or storms etc.
    Hi There!

  10. #130
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    But they do not have the technology or the equipment to make such things yet.
    Electricity can be fairly easily made from other sources like fruits, but also from a wind or watermill.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    I haven't read through the various responses but I will say it is down to a few key factors:

    1) Low population density - Earth's population in 10 AD was about 250 million or so whilst Novus' was about 70 or 80. It has trailed far behind Earth's at every stage of history (I say it probably take at least the better part of a millennium for the population to reach the first million and that doesn't include people who leave to settle other worlds). Earth didn't sit still for 1500 years; someone somewhere was always improving something. Novus would have had less minds working on a task and less people to implement advanced technology.

    2) Slow industrial revolution - I'm not sure if the series took this into account but one of the factors of the industrial revolution in our world was that there was sufficient food being grown in Britain through farming innovations to feed a much larger population but not enough jobs for this surplus. Consider the implications of presumably having a planet of vast unsettled areas and of course alien planets to re-locate to. Not a lot of people are going to want to work in harsh conditions for long hours when they can have autonomy elsewhere (a choice a lot of British people didn't have). Combined with the population issue mentioned above and you have a smaller workforce driving industry. Not to mention the implications of coal transport which probably would have entailed the necessity of further cities who can capitalise on the supplies in order to make these industries profitable. I would say the closest real world example of Novus would be Russia.

    3) Accessing Kino data/applying knowledge: It never says how the Kinos are even viewed without a computer system. Presumably the remote control devices allows one to view recorded footage but then for a lot of history only a handful of these devices exist and can educate at any one time. Even then a lot of knowledge had no use: there isn't much point taking lessons in creating circuits or building power plants when you have no industry to construct the parts and most of your hands are occupied with ensuring a successful harvest.

  12. #132
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankara View Post
    I haven't read through the various responses but I will say it is down to a few key factors:

    1) Low population density - Earth's population in 10 AD was about 250 million or so whilst Novus' was about 70 or 80. It has trailed far behind Earth's at every stage of history (I say it probably take at least the better part of a millennium for the population to reach the first million and that doesn't include people who leave to settle other worlds). Earth didn't sit still for 1500 years; someone somewhere was always improving something. Novus would have had less minds working on a task and less people to implement advanced technology.

    2) Slow industrial revolution - I'm not sure if the series took this into account but one of the factors of the industrial revolution in our world was that there was sufficient food being grown in Britain through farming innovations to feed a much larger population but not enough jobs for this surplus. Consider the implications of presumably having a planet of vast unsettled areas and of course alien planets to re-locate to. Not a lot of people are going to want to work in harsh conditions for long hours when they can have autonomy elsewhere (a choice a lot of British people didn't have). Combined with the population issue mentioned above and you have a smaller workforce driving industry. Not to mention the implications of coal transport which probably would have entailed the necessity of further cities who can capitalise on the supplies in order to make these industries profitable. I would say the closest real world example of Novus would be Russia.

    3) Accessing Kino data/applying knowledge: It never says how the Kinos are even viewed without a computer system. Presumably the remote control devices allows one to view recorded footage but then for a lot of history only a handful of these devices exist and can educate at any one time. Even then a lot of knowledge had no use: there isn't much point taking lessons in creating circuits or building power plants when you have no industry to construct the parts and most of your hands are occupied with ensuring a successful harvest.
    Excellent points.

    1) You are entirely correct. There were far more people on Earth 2000 years ago than Novus was. On one hand though it is certainly possible for a higher population growth rate since war would less common at least for a while. 2000 years later, Novus had two distinct countries, so war wouldn't be as common. Which means less people die from war. As some have heard, war was a major factor in keeping human populations low with the exception of major disease.

    2) That is my point. Novus is vast world of untapped resources that unlike Earth which had thousands of years prior to develop major cities and towns, Novus is brand spanking new.

    3) I can't remember off hand, but did they have one of those remote control devices that can see what the Kino sees. I imagine they do since Eli was using one constantly. Can they view kinos through them? The alternative is all of the scientists and people writing down what they know so their future offspring may have a path or at least an easier one.
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  13. #133
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    At many points in the series (Common Descent, Epilogue, etc) that involved Novas it states that many of their capital cities on other planets were highly advanced - as Novas itself was lead to believed - and that their society as a whole and their colony worlds had/were all advancing at different points.

    In areas like computer storage and medicine they seemed far advanced than us - i would say they were more advanced in pooling they resources to build space-capable ships from scratch considering ours was sped up by captured goa'uuld tech, Sarrakin and Asgard tech and o there tech gleaned form our allies, like the Jaffa, Tok'Ra, etc - and given the nature of colonisation efforts when considering the larger picture of surfing a rogue black hole, this would make sense in terms of resources.

    The fact we never get to see one of these more advanced captials is annoying in series, but makes sense given what we see on screen plot wise with the drones, etc.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Ok, remember ancient Egyptians were making batteries several thousand years ago and the Romans even had a steam engine (although it was considered just a toy at the time).

    Now don't drop everything on Eli's lap, first you have experts in many fields there. Brody who was an engineer to Tara who was the medic and was teaching Varo.

    In my estimation the first few years would be dedicated to survival, then the next couple of decades to raising kids and farming. Given they had no form of contraception families would be large on the scale of 6 to ten kids per family (look at our own family history in the U.S. to verify, lol). Once the kids reached a certain age the passed on knowledge would blossom into a majorly accelerated development of technology and Growth.

  15. #135
    First Lieutenant McAvoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    How many of the original scientists can actually create something from scratch?

    There is a lot of steps in between a basic steam powered boiler to something that can reliably creates electricity or move an object. Like I said, they have to be able to create even a basic plate of metal with very few impurities that can withstand pressure and temperatures. That requires a metal factory above that of a blacksmith. You will require a working knowledge of how the process is done. There will be alot of trial and error and even deaths before they perfect a working boiler design. a reciprocating engine is basic and can be done with basic metal knowledge but something like a turbine requires alot of technological breakthrough. It requires precise machining, which have to created themselves too. Which those tools have to created as well.

    Just because these scientists are smart and called scientists doesn't mean they will create a comparable to civilization faster than you think they can.
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  16. #136
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by McAvoy View Post
    How many of the original scientists can actually create something from scratch?
    You can probably derive all knowledge back to a caveman going "huh?" in stead of "oh **** run!"

  17. #137
    First Lieutenant McAvoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Trial and error has always been part of science and civilization.
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  18. #138
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Kind of an old thread but I'll put in my two cents.
    Besides scientists there were also admin and soldiers. You know military types probably had hobbies. Greer would have figured out how to build a barbecue and what can be hunted for example. Didn't Camille Wray garden for example?
    Survival would have been really tough. Remember the guys died on the planet builders planet.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Hi!

    So many smart people! So many good points! So many wild guesses about how Novan society got going!

    There's no need to guess: we see onscreen how things went. It may seem an extremely optimistic timeline, but it's canon, and it sidesteps most of what's been posted on this thread.

    First of all: those aren't just any random group of people. They're a highly motivated and trained bunch of smart and capable people who have survived onboard Destiny for 2 years (plus what they did at Icarus Base and before that) and must have considered life as colonists often, every time the ship malfunctioned.

    SGC likely learned a lot when setting up Alpha Site, other off-world outposts, and studying alien civilizations (many of 'em less advanced than Earth). Hiring people who can wear more than one hat is likely close to the top of their list. Closely followed by having a serious interest in ancient peoples and their doings.

    Then, they are under one single and capable military commander (whatever his other faults): Young. They also have a handy survival expert: Varro, who you can bet knows more than a dozen ways to skin a cat. Those who stayed at the 'Eden' planet had neither. How many times must Young have wondered what he'd have done at Eden to keep his people alive and well? Many, if 'Trial and Error' is any guide.

    Others have mentioned Army Ants and the Old Romans. Young did the right thing at Novus: he got everybody working like the Old Roman Legions, who built their own cities and started their own industries, from scratch, everywhere and everytime they felt like it, and did it in months or years, not decades or centuries. And yes, they could do it even when under attack.

    We are shown Destiny's crew doing just that. There's the snippet about Brody (the same guy who makes paper and builds complex stills) making medical-grade needles. Forget stone knives or bronze tools, this is the US Army/Air Force! They carried fully-loaded automatic weapons on a trip to Earth. They don't need lighters, they got Swiss-army knives, plus who knows how many other handy tools. Novus hasn't got a chance: They ain't gonna survive, they're gonna conquer!

    We see their night lights, and their not-so-artisanal clothing, before Young dies. They have old multi-story brick buildings, with glass windows, before Wray dies. That's serious Industry and Development. We know they recorded everything, and they saved every kino recording, even those from before Novus. So they must have had electricity fairly early on: odds are Brody crafted electrical coils (and with 'em both generators and motors) soon after the Iron mines went into operation.

    Another thing the Roman Legions did (and modern militaries also do) was diversifying, teaching, learning, and preserving knowledge. Literally written in stone. Start with the Periodic Table of the Elements, and basic practical Chemistry (a common prerequisite for Astronomy and Engineering) and you've got all of early XXth Century industry in a bottle, including explosives. If Stargate has taught us anything, it's that nothing is impossible if one has the right explosives.

    We know Eli and others are avid gamers, and have played Sim City and Sim Earth, much like the Atlantis crew knew Civilization. Those are world-building simulators. We see our real-world militaries use a lot of simulators for everything. Bet SGC does too.

    There's Dr. Jackson's Instructional videos with enough hours of packed knowledge that even Eli, the Human Recorder, got full. Was Naquadah, the base of all advanced technology, in there? How could it not be? Icarus Base was built on a planet-ful of the stuff!

    Alas, the Comm Stones would have been useless to them Novans, until SGC started using 'em, in the early XXIst Century.

    Wray drafted the first Novan Constitution. What did they have before? Enlightened Despotism, obviously, in the form of smart military rule. They were using Stargates from day one, and rebuilding an advanced civilization fast as they could in between having all those babies. They had a goal, a roadmap, resources, and leadership. They just did it.

    Those who didn't like being ordered around, or didn't share the common goal, had 2 options: Join Brody and his Futurans, or Gate around building their own off-world Colonies. Which we know they did, for centuries, with varied success.

    Unlikely? Yes. Unbelievable? Maybe. But there's no doubt that's how it went at Novus.

    We like to think what technology we still don't have is harder to get than what we already got. How hard? Well, it's been longer from fire to Nobel's Dynamite than from Dynamite to the H-bomb. It may have to do with numbers, not raw population numbers, but numbers of dedicated researchers, scientists and engineers.

    Or it may be motivation. The rule of thumb has always been what someone can dream, another can build, and nevermind the naysayers. If your military commander says "we're gonna do this, exactly as explained in these books", you'll do it, by Jove, or they'll throw you into the kawoosh and find someone else with a proper work ethic.

    Sadly, we never got to see any really advanced Novan worlds other than Novus. Pittsburgh fell somewhat behind, despite not having to deal with rogue black holes, or perhaps because of it? Seems Novan tech was a bit ahead of ours in many things, a bit behind in others. That might have been the result of a millennia-long Cold War, or of a different environment and needs, or of limited TV budget. Who knows. They weren't perfect, nor is it likely that they enjoyed relentless progress.

  20. #140
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by plumber View Post
    Wray drafted the first Novan Constitution. What did they have before? Enlightened Despotism, obviously, in the form of smart military rule. They were using Stargates from day one, and rebuilding an advanced civilization fast as they could in between having all those babies. They had a goal, a roadmap, resources, and leadership. They just did it.

    Those who didn't like being ordered around, or didn't share the common goal, had 2 options: Join Brody and his Futurans, or Gate around building their own off-world Colonies. Which we know they did, for centuries, with varied success.
    You make a lot of excellent points, but where is said that they had built off-world colonies for centuries? You suggest that there with "third party" groups that left for their own reasons for some reasons, but the Stargates are actually an excellent resource that can be used to fast-track civilization building. The Ancients understood this and appear to have built individual cities on planets which they connected to each other by way of the Stargate. This limited environmental damage to a planet, facilitated travel as every aspect of their civilization was seconds away from one another (plus short walks to and from Stargates), and, with the introduction of city-ships, it became very easy to pick up and leave in the face of catastrophic changes to an individual planet.

    If Ancient China could reach Europe in seconds rather than having to travel thousands of miles overland and vice versa, the world would be very different today. Goods and ideas would have spread more easily and industries would have flourished because the ease with which goods and services could be transported would have increased demand. Hence, why modern society has flourished so much more quickly with the advent of faster methods of transportation.

    In the case of the Destiny's survivors and their descendants, they could have found a mine near a Stargate, set up a settlement on this other planet that would grow over time, and shipped ores through the Stargate much faster and more easily than setting up a mine off somewhere on Novus. Industrial centers could have been built offworld to quickly ship products, farms would have been established to ship food and insulate themselves from the environmental problems of a single planet or limit themselves to just the conditions of the area nearby a settlement of one planet (there could have been a potential breadbasket near a Stargate of some other planet), etc. This should also rapidly facilitate growth on other planets as doing so would be a an easy way to create easy access new markets. Thus those people should have had a galaxy wide population, but they didn't.

    That colony world that they found people on had been established, not centuries prior, but 30 years prior in response to the earthquakes that were happening on Novus. The other colonies mentioned were similarly tied to this idea that the earthquakes prompted them to look for other planets to colonized thirty years ago. Also, that colony world could only gate to Novus, which means it is within the local cluster of gates that Novus can reach without gate hopping. As a perfectly habitable world it should have been among the first colonies created long ago. That it wasn't suggests that they limited themselves to one world. That Futura was a technological and political rival is another suggestion that colony worlds did not exist because if they did Tenara should have been much more advanced since it controlled the Stargate and thus access to all the trade and industry that colonies could have produced. Then, of course, there's the obvious, which is that if they've had off-world colonies for hundreds of years they wouldn't have needed to send small numbers of people to various worlds 30 years ago to build small settlements as a precursor to larger scale evacuations.

    It therefore seems that the writers kept them limited to Novus for most of their history. I would certainly think that the oppose would be the case because of the aforementioned reasons, but it also solves the issue of how the Destiny take II crew didn't run into other humans elsewhere in the galaxy before encountering this small group, so even if I can't quite understand why those fictional people would do that, I can see why the writers would limited them like that.
    Last edited by Xaeden; June 16th, 2018 at 05:59 AM.

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