The people that went to Novas wouldn't have had a complete understanding of everything they'd need to know, there were a small group of people, only a few of which would be qualified to use modern technology and maybe make some stuff they'd need to start off.
They certainly wouldn't know how to go from nothing to refining ores with no tech to make advanced materials.
They'd have to make everything from scratch, they were starting from nothing."You act like the Novans would have done nothing but copy what they knew from the original colonists memories of things they may or may not know and maybe fill in the gaps.
They weren't robots, they were Human beings" why would they choose trying to create things from scratch over trying to work towards goals they knew are achievable
They didn't have anything to begin with.
People regularly disagree on even the basic things a society needs, hell they argue about things that aren't even important to society, just basic domestic issues or even spend ages arguing about the stupid things."The Novans would have to do more than establish the basics, they'd need to work as a civilization, get along with each other.
Social problems can take centuries to deal with" they where do fine at the end of the episode
We saw a small part of their story, even deciding where to explore could be argued about and how to go about it.
The fact that we're even arguing about the topic of this thread proves that people disagree, even about a fictional group of characters and how they should end up.
Even though we have tonnes of resources on Earth we still disagree on how to use them or how to use land.
Even though a group of people may have peace among them, they will still disagree on where to build something, or what it should look like, it's just a fact of being Human and the influences of how environment shapes our way of thinking.
I can see you didn't actually read what I wrote there, coz your sentence makes no sense.we can't say that because we've only seen one (since novus it's self also doesn't count)
We know that they had those settlements, we can tell that their people lived in a varity of different ways, they didn't just build a city like the one on their homeworld.
Here you miss the point of what I wrote.the drones deliberately left those buildings alone because they where so low tech
The fact that the rubble surrounding those buildings still left intact means they didn't have tall buildings, otherwise the rubble would be standing much higher, basically there isn't enough rubble for there to have been a massive city with large buildings next to those structures that are still left intact, they'd also have damage, they weren't even really scratched considering the place was meant to be attacked.
Yes they did, they had nothing, you ignoring this fact doesn't change that they had to go from nothing to what we have today and more."The Novans had to squash over 100,000 of development of important technologies into 2000 years" no they didn't
That country could have resources that you need to make things, not really rocket science, this could hold you back from making necessary things."They also had disagreements in how they should live, two nations with different ideas on how they should develop.
Because of this they can't have just focused on tech development" why would how the country next door wants the develop effect me?
You could live on land that is terrible for farming, your neighbours could prevent you traveling to a fertile region of land, thus your people could die from starvation.
These kinds of issues could take many years, decades even centuries to deal with, even trying to move to another place it could take you decades to even find some other place that suitable, especially if you've gotta travel around on wooden ships that take ages to get to another island or continent.
No, but it's still an issue that you'd need to deal with if you even care about your people, the Novans obviously did considering they built ships to save their'sbut still not nearly as many as in the third world
You act like what you believe is a fact, it's not.I acknowledge what's on screen I'm saying it doesn't make sense, and shouldn't be. There is a difference between stuff like made up technology and things that are just illogical
I'm not the only person who's posted in this thread who believes the Novans are right at the level they could plausibly be at.
So far you've not given one shread of reasonable proof to explain why the Novans should be more advanced than we saw.
You're assuming they'd have that info on Destiny, we've never been told they do, so you saying this is just an assumption, not proof, my point still stands.1) they'd know the "exact atomic composition" because one of the scientists would have written it down or described it to a keno
If it's not mentioned on the show, then it's not canon.2)"Since no one's mentioned that Naquada exists in the galaxy" why would they mention it, it's not like they've got a generator on Destiny, what good would it do them
If no one's mentioned Naquada then no one sees it at that moment in time, or knows that it's there, pretty simple stuff. lol
As far as the "why would they mention it" part, it's a powerful material, that's not exactly everywhere in the Milky Way, they may also want to make a generator that uses Naquada, it could help with power needs.
I'm saying that punching a hole into subspace would require more power than simply moving it.2)"Warp only requires distorting the space infront of a craft and expanding the space behind the ship enough to move it from point a to point b, you're not breaking space or tearing a hole, then potentially having to repair it, Hyperdrive would require more energy because it has to tear a hole in space, maintain a conduit within subspace and then tear another hole back into the vacume, potentially having to repair space both going into subspace and exiting it" we don't know how a Hyperdrive works, but regardless we do know how much power it needs and it's less then that
BTW no one on the show has stated the exact wattage needed to open a hyperspace window, but since tearing a hole into subspace requires more effort, because you have to actually break space in two places & then maintain a conduit inside of subspace and not just expand/contract the vacume, it's obvious what would require more power.
I don't see what's so hard to understand about those points.
"they weren't even really scratched considering the place was meant to be attacked" I told you the part we saw wasn't attacked
"As far as the "why would they mention it" part, it's a powerful material, that's not exactly everywhere in the Milky Way, they may also want to make a generator that uses Naquada, it could help with power needs" yeah and why don't they make a spare Stargate out of their broken radios and flash lights well their at it?
That's how the human brain works. Large chunks of information that isn't necessary in the nearby future are forgotten by the brain so it could handle new information much better. Many of my college professors I know re-update everything they know every time they feels that something is being forgotten. One or two years without practicing the knowledge, and the only thing you'll remember will be the basics.
Scientists aren't superhuman, they don't just pull things out of their hat, they don't just solve things without screwing up things a bit. And just because you have a group of smart people, that doesn't mean you'll solve whatever problem just like that!
SCIENTISTS ARE NOT WESLEY CRUSHER!
A lab or kitchen with the most rudimentary equipment is more science-friendly than anything they had there.
Kinos only analyse the atmosphere (it was said in the series and on Joe's blog) and, their power source does NOT last forever, and they have no ways of recharging it, evidence that their kinos were only opened during important events.
Last edited by SGSargon; January 3rd, 2012 at 04:25 AM. Reason: seriously, what's with these blank page errors?
It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
Also, your original question was very vague:"why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?"
"present day despite those initial massive advantages and the lack of a dark ages, both planets seem pretty much equal, admittedly Novus is the more advanced but not much it seems. both planets have handheld radios, both planets have key board interfaced computes, both planets still use nuclear weapons, both plants still can't crack faster then light travel on their own
I would have thought it would only take a long as it took their people to establish a large population and an industrial infrastructure to become as advanced as we are know, by 2000 years latter they should be like Tollan or the ancients with hyperdrive, computes you control with your mind and weapons that put nukes to shame"
Do you understand how scientific progress works like? Like I said, scientists and inventors don't just pull things out of their hat everytime somebody wants something. It's all down to something very promiscuous (for the lack of a better word) and impredictible element:
Don't underestimate the power of meme. Memes are NEVER a free choice. They're something that large groups inadvertantly chose due to various reasons. It can also be driven by competition. Meme is everything.
Like the Cold War space race, that was driven by the national pride. After that, the interest began to fade, and while the technology is more advanced today, very few things go on in space now
Or a better example, the musicians, that always come with something new, new music styles, new attitudes etc. and old ones are usually forgotten or partially forgotten.
That's what I meant by being promiscuous. It always changes, depending on what the direction is.
An what what exactly did you meant by more advanced?
"hyperdrives" They have the Stargate. They have no idea what is still outside the Gate system. They have no interest. They don't care. Why should they? Their lives are probably good enough. ("why shouldn't they" is not a reason)
"computers that control your mind" What for? Because they look cool? On whom will they use? On the frogs?
"weapons that put nukes to shame" Why? Cause blowing things up it's cool? Cause a civilisation level of technology is determined by how many times it can blow itself up?
Tell you what their "meme" will be:
Medicine: they already have relative limited genetic pool. That would drive them to genetic engineering. They already discovered the cure to A.L.S. by 1800. We haven't. We don't know how many other cures they discovered.
Microtechnology: since bulky technology isn't very atractive, they would of developed their electronics to become smaller and smaller for practical reasons.
Entertainment: since humans have always looked for fun, that would be a sufficient motivator.
What were you expecting? Flying buildings? Giant robots? Super-mega-giga buildings? Mega-lasers? Space junk?
The place was abandoned, they probably canibalised many things for their ships and many other would of being damaged by the earthquicks.
It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
i do not understand why some people believe the presence of resources will be a problem.
it's an untouched world, iron gold and everything will be at the surface
According to the article primitive Humans lived on the coast of Africa 165,000 years ago, they fished for mussles and were able to cook them, they would have to do multiple roles.
BTW I never said I thought everything was instinct, of course everything we know is learned, we learn from dealing with problems our environments provide and we figure out through trial and error of different techniques to solve these problems.
We're still discovering what our environment has to offer.but once they did they would know where to go from there
From when we first learned how to make boats, the oldest found was from between 7,000 to 9,000 BC, so probably over 9,000 years people have been exploring the world and we still don't fully know all of the resources on the planet.
2,000 years isn't really long to develop from basically nothing.
You're still not proving your point.
I never argued that development hasn't happened on Earth, I simply argue that technological development isn't all that's happened over the history of humankind, fitting all of the development, social and other issues into the 2000 years the Novans had is still an amazing feat to undertake, them still advancing further dispite everything they've had to deal with is amazing, you saying it's not enough is an illogical way of thinking when you take into consideration what they've actually achieved and the facts of how Humans live together."Even though we have tonnes of resources on Earth we still disagree on how to use them or how to use land" yet technological advancement still happened here, why would any of the arguing factions choose not to pursue technological advancement as a goal
Deny the facts as much as you like it doesn't change the fact that the Novans are Human, we live in a variety of different ways, the Novans have been shown to do the same."we can tell that their people lived in a varity of different ways" no we can't, we can see how they live on their home world and one other colony
You can't have looked at the link you posted properly, because behind the buildings we see there was rubble, there was material on the ground that obviously came from destroyed structures.they weren't right next to the buildings we saw they where in a completely different part of the city
"they weren't even really scratched considering the place was meant to be attacked" I told you the part we saw wasn't attacked
Please look at the link you posted again.
This sentence makes no sense.only nothing physically we carry much of that advancement in our own minds
Average people and even engineers won't carry every piece of knowledge about every advancement Humans have made over the history of our people.
It wasn't split down the middle with a straight line, originally they'd inhabit close regions, as in the same island, or islands very close to each other, so materials could be in short supply on one side's territory and they'd have to either move further away, which would be a major gamble when they had nothing to start with, so the most logical thing to do is try and live with your neighbours until they had the necessary resources in the way of supplies and then move to a new location on the planet, not knowing what's out there.they controlled half the planet each, it's a safe bet they had every thing they needed in their respective territories
On Earth important materials are easier to get to in certain areas than in others.
TBH Humans can be incredibly stubborn, both nations would most likely argue over what's nearby and that would eat up loads of time.
In their most advanced state maybe, as in later years, but they could still have issues and the fact that they've come further than we have in only 2000 years could mean they've cut corners in certain areas.but dealing with it would be easier for them then us
What you've stated isn't a fact, you haven't given evidence to support your viewpoint, you've just given unsupported statements, with no logical thought or evidence to back it up.I believe I have
How many actual physicists made it to Novas?how could any physicist working for the stargate program not know something as basic as that
Eli wasn't an actually physicist, not in the same fully qualified way Rush was.
Most of the people that made it to Novas were marines, some politicians and engineers.
TBH it's not been stated that people in the SGC fully understand Naquada or Naquadria, or that they know it's full atomic make up.
Actually finding the stuff could take decades of searching on each planet of their local galaxy with real world modern technology, if there are a few hundred habitibal worlds and they've gotta build tech when they get to each planet it could take centuries per planet to search, so much more time than they've already had to develop.
There are roughly 100,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy, many thousands (more than there are in Pegasus) of which have planets and they've got stargates on them and we've only found Naquada because the Goauld have had bases on many planets and we've followed their lead and found info on sites that have Naquada on because we've been fighting them."If it's not mentioned on the show, then it's not canon" that only works with unlikely things, Naquada is found on many unrelated planets in the milky way, it's like suggesting there is no water in galaxy just because they don't mention it
The Goauld dug Naquada out of the ground on those planets, they discovered where it was on those worlds that we've been exploring.
The Novans would have to scout many sites and then hope to find large enough deposits to make it worth setting up a site.
If they were using Naquada and had found it then we would know, because it would be stated on the show, Naquada is an integral part of the show, to not mention it, even in passing is stupid from a story writing point of view.
You can't make up canon, to do so would be fanon and fanon isn't the truth of the show, only canon is.
I wasn't talking about when they got there, obviously at some point in their history they got to a level closer to modern real world Earth."As far as the "why would they mention it" part, it's a powerful material, that's not exactly everywhere in the Milky Way, they may also want to make a generator that uses Naquada, it could help with power needs" yeah and why don't they make a spare Stargate out of their broken radios and flash lights well their at it?
In the city we saw they had tech like Nuclear power generators or Geothermal power, they were powering a large city and had tech beyond Earth's, so by that stage they should be able to make use of Naquada, yet we saw no evidence of it, so obviously this would have been a time to mention such a material was in use, it wasn't mentioned, so they obviously weren't using it.
I'm not saying that Naquada doesn't exist within the galaxy, just that it hasn't been stated that it's been found by either the Novans or Destiny, if it was then it would have been mentioned.
If Naquada generators can be used to power a Hyperdrive, then they should be able to power a warp drive, since breaking into hyperspace would require more effort, it would require more power than a warp drive.we know Naquada generators can do it
Last edited by Rise Of The Phoenix; January 9th, 2012 at 04:50 PM.
Well, firstly they weren't at Earth and they didn't have access to so much technology as we do. Yes, they eventually had, but that took a lot of time and by then a lot of time was up and as they advanced, they went through a quicker version of Earth's advancements(they did start in wooden cabins, didn't they). Plus, there was Brody(replacing the invaluable Rush)vs. Mayor Young and all.
Although they were starting will a significant amount of accumulated knowledge, they started with a very small population and almost no resources. It takes many generations and coordination to go from nothing to a highly advanced society; even with the know-how the Destiny crew had.
He who controls the spice controls the universe!(And the kitchen.)
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Knowledge maybe.. but would they have had the materials, tools?The engineers should. They should also have the knowledge to manufacture a kiln and develop copper and iron ore.
From watching Epilogue, it looked like it took a heck of a lot longer than 2 years to get to where they were not just in subsistence survival mode.Once they build a society that can feed and provide for itself (2 years) they'll start pumping out babies. This will go on for several generations and they'll get sufficient growth to drive their development.
I am just going to add to this:
Go back 2,000 years ago. 12 AD is easily done by a group of people even with a basic knowledge. Take for example arches, it took a long time to figure those out but are very basic (complex too). The houses we saw that they made are very simple by our standards but far, far advanced than most cultures thousands of years ago.
So they got a head start but the biggest problem is reinventing the wheel so to speak. Chances are Eli and others put up a list of things to invent and the baic premise of it. Sort of like a checklist. But not everything would be on there.
So I can easily see it take 2,000 years to reach from nothing to what we saw which is most likely more advanced than Earth. I find it doubtful too that those 2,000 years were peaceful or disaster free.
given the way the spaceship takes off at the end, i'd say their definitely much more advanced than Earth.
I'm going to interject here. A Few things firstly your forgeting Varo. He had come from a much less technical society; and even talked about hunting with his father and brother. He undoubted had the skills to tan hides, and a superior knowledge of survival. Between him and Greer their meat needs for 80 people could have been easily overcome.
Second Brody was a mechanical engineer, not a physicist. He would have pretty good knowledge of processes to refine ores. Produce concrete and other basic materials.
You also have a geologist on board, Dr. Palmer; who would know how to find deposits required for many of the materials. Probably would also know some of the processes for making glass, concrete and refining ores.
Dr. Volker is the last remaining true physicist left.
I recently watched the entire series on a 40 hour binge. In one episode Rush is in Eli's room talking to him and asks him if he had the computations yet. Eli handed him a piece of paper. Rush then made the comment, " Looks like Mr. Brody's paper making experiment is having some good results."
Now I've seen in this thread where someone mentioned how long it took to get steam power. The fact is They knew of steam power during the Roman Empire, but they considered it just a toy. This knowledge was eventually lost until the 1800's. The Romans even had plywood.
This is no different than the Batteries they found in the pyramids, they were crude but worked. Even though they had no use for batteries or electricity, it's suspected it was used by priests to convince followers of their power.
My point is this even though Earth had this technology much earlier than most people realize, they forgot about it as not being important. Destiny's crew however would know the importance of even the most basic tech and teach their kids to value it and not just discard it, EVEN if it was of no use at the time.
Now this was just a few crew members. You have 80 some crew all with different knowledge. What we now call hobbies, to them may in fact be very valuable for their accelerated advance. People like the geologist, Brody and a few others would be very busy advancing their ability to get back to the state they were in before they left Earth. The others would realize their immediate importance and provide for them so they could work towards this advance and improvement in their situation.
As an example I have friends who are working on various Doctorates, but have hobbies that include things like spinning their own thread and hand making cloth. Some do black smithing. Just because someone is a Doctor does not mean they do not have primitive hobbies.
I think an important factor you're forgetting is the advantage of knowing what's to come.Now this was just a few crew members. You have 80 some crew all with different knowledge.
the fact that light is both a wave and a particle, or most of the basic equations of electricity, or how the atom is made, are thing that we now consider basic knowledge, but that is something from the last 100-200 years. Even basic things like bacteria and micro-organisms are things invented in the 1600's (ish).
If the Destiny crew recorded the various things that are possible and basic facts like that an atom is made of protons and neutrons, then even 1000 years later some Novan can go and prove that. They already know that's the case, they just need to prove it. A lot of science would basically be a matter of proving that's true and that is it. No need to spend ages understanding what it would be like or spending billions of man-hours on errands and wrong assumptions; in stead of having an Einstein trying to disprove Quantum Mechanics, you'd have an Einstein giving his all to further that theory. In stead of doctors experimenting with hygiene and doing things like looking at the weather or motions of the stars to predict disease, from the get-go doctors(even if they're glorified butchers) would wash their hands and sterilize their equipment (something that took over a thousand years before it was figured out).
I've also found when you sit around a camp fire and tell stories, you can remember some of the oddest things that have no bearing on the stories being told at the time. As I said, SGU has never really delved into people's hobbies like SG1 did, so there is no way to tell who could actually know anything about ceramics.(yes bricks are included in ceramics do to it being the same process just different temps) And Yes, ceramics are a hobby of mine, which has nothing to do with my profession. Typically however ceramics are womens hobbies, it tends to be a stress relieving hobby for them, much like fishing for men.
I just don't like discounted pooled knowledge. Even if no one single person can remember a particular process as a group the odds are any various member will remember something about any given topic.
Having an idea of and actually doing doesn't always follow.
Initially the Novans would be living in the stone age, presuming they would find flint and obsidian type stone that would provide sharp edges for tools when split on the planet. It would take time for Brody's metallurgical knowledge to be put into practice to make the tools from the iron Brody noted was available.
They had to eat and build shelter immediately so tools that could be made quickly to hunt for food and cut down trees for shelter was the first priority. We can assume that the basic survival training the military received made sure they the knowledge to start a fire. I can't imagine they'd have a lighter as a smoker would not be carrying their lighter around with them on Destiny after their cigarettes ran out.
They would then use the advanced knowledge of knowing about bows and arrows and put their efforts into reproducing this next to enable them to hunt more efficiently as they learn more about what was available to hunt. This would also provide clothing and bone tools as they would learn to use various parts of animals they find and learn to prepare hides through trial and error, but they have the idea of doing this already.
As they learn about the plants that are edible they learn to grow them for food. The trial and error part would be lessened slightly with the knowledge they already possess about irrigation and the need for fertilising soil. Dealing with pests and diseases would have to be dealt by trial and error since they are dealing with an eco system that will pose different challenges to that of Earth.
So, even looking at what the new arrivals were faced with initially it is understandable that it would take a decade at least to get a tried and tested way of survival established. Only when the pressure of surviving is removed can the path to developing better ways to do things be started on. Also I would think that what constitutes 'advancement' on Earth would not necessarily apply to life on Novus. Needs and wants are the engine of discovery and innovation.
As Brody's alcohol still building showed, the human need for diversions from the bane of daily life can also be the engine for innovation!
The fact that Eli felt it was important to document everything would mean he would get all the people with any knowledge they have and document it for use later. This knowledge base could then be tapped into when needed by future generations and built on as they would be aware of them since their history and knowledge is passed on as evidenced by the dedication of the school to Eli in 'Epilogue'.