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  1. #41
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    but they'd loose that knowledge if they couldn't write it down (forgetting the keno for now),
    also I always thought the ability to do very sophisticated things is built on a foundation of more simple things, like for example no matter how much they wanted to they couldn't build a good steam powered engine because there is no manufacturing infrastructure to make the standardised parts you would need, and there's no where you can buy food from to supply workers so they can afford to spend their time building the thing and presumable a rail road instead of farming
    Very true. Also, simple numbers. They can't have people developing metallurgy/electronics/paper when they need to begin with houses, clothing and farming.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizziard View Post
    Very true. Also, simple numbers. They can't have people developing metallurgy/electronics/paper when they need to begin with houses, clothing and farming.

    "metallurgy & paper" I could imagine being achievable within the founders life time, "electronics" noooooooo way

  3. #43
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizziard View Post
    There's a big difference between knowledge and implementation. However, you're right: the big advantage that the survivors gain is that they have the knowledge. At least in outline. Theories of hygiene and plumbing that should be aeons ahead of equivalent Earth cultures equivalently in the stone age. But anything needed making would, by definition, need making. Someone mentioned the baking point of concrete, above: useful trivia fact but would anyone on Destiny know it?
    The engineers should. They should also have the knowledge to manufacture a kiln and develop copper and iron ore.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    "metallurgy & paper" I could imagine being achievable within the founders life time, "electronics" noooooooo way
    Why the need for electronics in such a short time frame. There are much more pressing needs.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    they could get damaged, it would be foolish to have no back up
    also only one person can look at that little screen at a time
    Treebark, sandstone
    This isn't rocket science.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by morrismike View Post
    Why the need for electronics in such a short time frame. There are much more pressing needs.
    "short time frame" I'm talking like 60 years

  7. #47
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by morrismike View Post
    Treebark, sandstone
    This isn't rocket science.
    what about "Treebark, sandstone"?
    Last edited by slimjim; December 23rd, 2011 at 11:56 AM.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    what about "Treebark, sandstone"?
    The dead sea scrolls are over 2000 years old and are animal skin. Writing stuff down is easy. It is remarkable to think they'd leave the stones on Destiny as they are very valuable. It would be a simple matter to record knowledge.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by morrismike View Post
    The dead sea scrolls are over 2000 years old and are animal skin. Writing stuff down is easy. It is remarkable to think they'd leave the stones on Destiny as they are very valuable. It would be a simple matter to record knowledge.
    The stones don't record - but didn't the "survivors" assume that they were only going to be off the ship for a very short time... would they have bothered to take stones? If they were expecting to be marooned they'd have taken literally everything they could carry.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by morrismike View Post
    The dead sea scrolls are over 2000 years old and are animal skin. Writing stuff down is easy.
    The Dead Sea Scrolls are written on parchment and papyrus.
    Parchment (made of animal skin) is very sensitive to moisture and is not water proof, because is only limed, and not tanned. Since the development of synthetic fibers and artificial leather, extremly few clothing factories in the West still use natural skins, and those that use them, usually import from other countries already treated skins.
    Same thing goes for the papyrus.
    In this case, how many scientists would of kown to bleach and tann skin if nobody even knows what tanning is? How many of you what tanning is, raise your hands?
    Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels have survived until today mainly because they were kept in DESERT areas where its extremly DRY, whereas forests tend to be very wet.
    The "Gospel of Judas" for example, when it was first found, it wasn't very damaged, but after being kept 20 or so years in a safe in Switzerland, it was destroyed more than 50%. Moisture is a very big problem.
    If fact, this is the main problem of paper. It tends to get yellow after years, especially in wet environment.

    Also if you want to write, you'd need either ink or graphite. Ink is problematic because of the wet environment and make the ink strong enough to not get wiped the moment you rub the paper and not get soaked in it.
    And since graphite doesn't grow in trees, using charcoal as a writing tool would make more sense (but would also be dirty), since its easier to make.
    Last edited by SGSargon; December 24th, 2011 at 04:53 AM. Reason: letter issue
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by SGSargon View Post
    The Dead Sea Scrolls are written on parchment and papyrus.
    Parchment (made of animal skin) is very sensitive to moisture and is not water proof, because is only limed, and not tanned. Since the development of synthetic fibers and artificial leather, extremly few clothing factories in the West still use natural skins, and those that use them, usually import from other countries already treated skins.
    Same thing goes for the papyrus.
    In this case, how many scientists would of kown to bleach and tann skin if nobody even knows what tanning is? How many of you what tanning is, raise your hands?
    Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels have survived until today mainly because they were kept in DESERT areas where its extremly DRY, whereas forests tend to be very wet.
    The "Gospel of Judas" for example, when it was first found, it wasn't very damaged, but after being kept 20 or so years in a safe in Switzerland, it was destroyed more than 50%. Moisture is a very big problem.
    If fact, this is the main problem of paper. It tends to get yellow after years, especially in wet environment.

    Also if you want to write, you'd need either ink or graphite. Ink is problematic because of the wet environment and make the ink strong enough to not get wiped the moment you rub the paper and not get soaked in it.
    And since graphite doesn't grow in trees, using charcoal as a writing tool would make more sense (but would also be dirty), since its easier to make.
    "how many scientists would of kown to bleach and tann skin" given there all smart people and there is over 30 of them, I'd say at least one or two
    "if nobody even knows what tanning is?" what makes you think non of them know what tanning is?

  12. #52
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    "how many scientists would of kown to bleach and tann skin" given there all smart people and there is over 30 of them, I'd say at least one or two
    "if nobody even knows what tanning is?" what makes you think non of them know what tanning is?
    Do you know what tanning is? Without having to look on the Internet or in books.
    Since the development of synthetic fibers and artificial leather (and protests from PETA), industrialised countries have pretty much abandoned natural skins processing and tanning is more common used in third-world countries. Any other natural skins used in industry is usually imported from there.
    So why would scientists that work with advanced physics and electronics have to know tanning?
    It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizziard View Post
    The stones don't record - but didn't the "survivors" assume that they were only going to be off the ship for a very short time... would they have bothered to take stones? If they were expecting to be marooned they'd have taken literally everything they could carry.
    The survivors thought they were going to earth. Those stones are critically important SG assets and would be the first thing brought with. With the stones, you have access to the people that wrote the textbooks. The useless people (most of the military not "handy" and a lot of the civilians) could become scribes.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    "how many scientists would of kown to bleach and tann skin" given there all smart people and there is over 30 of them, I'd say at least one or two
    "if nobody even knows what tanning is?" what makes you think non of them know what tanning is?
    A good number of those military folks would have been hunters and maybe even trappers and would know that skill. It isn't rocket science: skin animal, parboil hair off, scrap skin, etc. There are likely many trees with appropriate bark and several Kinos available to record audio information.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by SGSargon View Post
    Do you know what tanning is? Without having to look on the Internet or in books.
    Since the development of synthetic fibers and artificial leather (and protests from PETA), industrialised countries have pretty much abandoned natural skins processing and tanning is more common used in third-world countries. Any other natural skins used in industry is usually imported from there.
    So why would scientists that work with advanced physics and electronics have to know tanning?
    "Do you know what tanning is?" no but I'm only one person
    if you got 30 people together of high intelligence I'm willing to bet....just by chance at least one will know that as a piece of general knowledge

  16. #56
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    "Do you know what tanning is?" no but I'm only one person
    if you got 30 people together of high intelligence I'm willing to bet....just by chance at least one will know that as a piece of general knowledge
    The odds are several of the military are hunters and would know.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    "Do you know what tanning is?" no but I'm only one person
    if you got 30 people together of high intelligence I'm willing to bet....just by chance at least one will know that as a piece of general knowledge
    It's a long way from knowing that tanning is "doing something to hide to turn it into leather" to being able to develop the multi-stage, stinking process that is tanning.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    "Do you know what tanning is?" no but I'm only one person
    if you got 30 people together of high intelligence I'm willing to bet....just by chance at least one will know that as a piece of general knowledge
    You know, by this logic, 30 physicists of high intelligence should figure out the COMPLETE recipe for Coca-Cola with only limited knowledge of what it is, as in taste, colour and whatever is written on the label.... on Earth.
    And without any chemical analysis.
    It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
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  19. #59
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by SGSargon View Post
    You know, by this logic, 30 physicists of high intelligence should figure out the COMPLETE recipe for Coca-Cola with only limited knowledge of what it is, as in taste, colour and whatever is written on the label.... on Earth.
    And without any chemical analysis.
    I think the point you both are missing is "regular people" in the US hunt and a surpisingly large percent. Those military folks are regular people. Many hunters are familiar with what is involved with tanning and could figure out how to make parchment. It is a silly arguement anyways as the kinos set to audio only with some sort of mp3 type compression could holds centuries worth of audio communication.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by SGSargon View Post
    You know, by this logic, 30 physicists of high intelligence should figure out the COMPLETE recipe for Coca-Cola with only limited knowledge of what it is, as in taste, colour and whatever is written on the label.... on Earth.
    And without any chemical analysis.
    except I'm not asking them to figure something out I'm asking them to know something though general knowledge and having other interests besides their job, most of the really smart people I've met in my life know quite a lot about a range of subjects not related to their profession

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