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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by LtColCarter View Post
    Hmmmm...we shall see. That seems a bit to creative for anyone in the TV industry to come up with now days...
    Why thank you! I'll take that as a compliment.

    Elaborating a little. Why do they need that meteoric iron? Any material they need can easily be requested from 2149. Unless they exhausted the mineral on earth. Also what they seam to mine is just little comparing on what Terra Nova would need or even earth.
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    Interesting theory, but it's a different timeline. We know from the pilot that utilizing the time portal created an alternate timeline that everyone sent back to Terra Nova lives in; they and 2149 live in entirely separate realities.
    Yup. I agree with your position. It is the Occam's Razor answer.

    SPECULATION TIME. (Apologies, I'm too sleepy to do a good job of this.)

    The only way Terra Nova is in the same time stream is if the settlement is on a patch of land which is completely isolated from the larger land masses existing at that time. This suggests that if it is in the same time line, then something would have to occur to remove all physical evidence of the settlement ever existing. Finally, it would have to have been a very short-lived settlement which had a limited impact. It all comes down to space, time and resources. This explains a number of things:

    1.) The problem exists of killing a butterfly (or a dinosaur, or eating a plant) in the past and drastically changing the future because the sample is removed from the gene pool. There's no way around this unless all of the animals and plants are already isolated from the larger bio-mass and are/were already doomed to extinction (as in sooner rather than later). If these organisms already could not add to the genetic diversity of their various species then them dying out would not make any difference to the future. This suggests that the land mass associated with Terra Nova is isolated and will in some manner, be destroyed, perhaps sliding under the water with the change in continental plates (cue Donovan: "Way down below the ocean..."). It also suggests to me that the colony likely did not spread any further than their current land mass. If they had, then the butterfly effect would come into play in a major way.

    2.) Resource acquisition. There is only so much butter in the larder. You can't send yourself a pound of butter on Monday, expect to use that same pound through the week, and expect to get your original pound back on Friday.

    What the heck does that mean?

    If the people of Terra Nova are in the original timeline, and they continued to live long and prosper in the past, they would start to dig up their own ores and use them for their own purposes (or to send to the future?). If those metals, in their natural state, were not where they were when humans in the original timeline first dug them up, then that is something which could have a significant affect on technological and societal evolution. The history of how and why Copper Age cultures developed in one region of the world could be altered. How might the history of the USA be changed if they did not have access to large quantities of iron ore? Also, any concentration of 85 million year old metal artifacts (assuming any were found) would have been very hard to explain. Yes, it's 85 million years. However, "coprolites" from the Cambrian period (540 million years ago) have been found...

    Therefore, the people of Terra Nova either did not do it, or any resources mined by them were in a location which the original timeline could not exploit. This suggests that Terra Nova would have to have limited impact on the land around it, and likely does not expand past their home land mass, for 2149 not to be affected.

    3.) The land mass on which Terra Nova exists is likely destroyed. One method would be by continental shifting and it is then submerged under an ocean for the people of 2149. This could be a possible reason why no artifacts from the settlement were ever found by modern archaeologists in 2149. However, this does not explain why there would be no evidence of a sizable, technologically advanced culture, which would have had a significant affect on its environment had it any amount of time to develop and expand. This suggests that they did not exist for an extended period of time.

    Another means by which evidence of the settlement and the land mass is destroyed is by a meteorite. It would not have to be *The Big One*, but it would have to be a significant one. I suggest that if the Terra Nova colony were in the original timeline, then it is destroyed by a meteor. And I suspect it is coming within the X number of seasons left in the series.

    Way to go out with a bang.

    regards,
    G.
    Go for Marty...

  3. #23
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    yes. i agree with you.



    an alternate possibility is the sheer possibility of resource acquisition.


    in essence, Terra Nova could do the same to Earth as they did in 2149, and that way sustain the earth. so in stead of "abandoning ship", it would be leeching TN earth to fuel 2149 Earth.


    so no 'starting over" but "continuing on".

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollumpus View Post
    Yup. I agree with your position. It is the Occam's Razor answer.

    SPECULATION TIME. (Apologies, I'm too sleepy to do a good job of this.)

    The only way Terra Nova is in the same time stream is if the settlement is on a patch of land which is completely isolated from the larger land masses existing at that time. This suggests that if it is in the same time line, then something would have to occur to remove all physical evidence of the settlement ever existing. Finally, it would have to have been a very short-lived settlement which had a limited impact. It all comes down to space, time and resources. This explains a number of things:

    1.) The problem exists of killing a butterfly (or a dinosaur, or eating a plant) in the past and drastically changing the future because the sample is removed from the gene pool. There's no way around this unless all of the animals and plants are already isolated from the larger bio-mass and are/were already doomed to extinction (as in sooner rather than later). If these organisms already could not add to the genetic diversity of their various species then them dying out would not make any difference to the future. This suggests that the land mass associated with Terra Nova is isolated and will in some manner, be destroyed, perhaps sliding under the water with the change in continental plates (cue Donovan: "Way down below the ocean..."). It also suggests to me that the colony likely did not spread any further than their current land mass. If they had, then the butterfly effect would come into play in a major way.

    2.) Resource acquisition. There is only so much butter in the larder. You can't send yourself a pound of butter on Monday, expect to use that same pound through the week, and expect to get your original pound back on Friday.

    What the heck does that mean?

    If the people of Terra Nova are in the original timeline, and they continued to live long and prosper in the past, they would start to dig up their own ores and use them for their own purposes (or to send to the future?). If those metals, in their natural state, were not where they were when humans in the original timeline first dug them up, then that is something which could have a significant affect on technological and societal evolution. The history of how and why Copper Age cultures developed in one region of the world could be altered. How might the history of the USA be changed if they did not have access to large quantities of iron ore? Also, any concentration of 85 million year old metal artifacts (assuming any were found) would have been very hard to explain. Yes, it's 85 million years. However, "coprolites" from the Cambrian period (540 million years ago) have been found...

    Therefore, the people of Terra Nova either did not do it, or any resources mined by them were in a location which the original timeline could not exploit. This suggests that Terra Nova would have to have limited impact on the land around it, and likely does not expand past their home land mass, for 2149 not to be affected.

    3.) The land mass on which Terra Nova exists is likely destroyed. One method would be by continental shifting and it is then submerged under an ocean for the people of 2149. This could be a possible reason why no artifacts from the settlement were ever found by modern archaeologists in 2149. However, this does not explain why there would be no evidence of a sizable, technologically advanced culture, which would have had a significant affect on its environment had it any amount of time to develop and expand. This suggests that they did not exist for an extended period of time.

    Another means by which evidence of the settlement and the land mass is destroyed is by a meteorite. It would not have to be *The Big One*, but it would have to be a significant one. I suggest that if the Terra Nova colony were in the original timeline, then it is destroyed by a meteor. And I suspect it is coming within the X number of seasons left in the series.

    Way to go out with a bang.

    regards,
    G.
    There are sitting in a future metropolitan area. They also have knowledge of where mines were located in the future.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    yes. i agree with you.



    an alternate possibility is the sheer possibility of resource acquisition.


    in essence, Terra Nova could do the same to Earth as they did in 2149, and that way sustain the earth. so in stead of "abandoning ship", it would be leeching TN earth to fuel 2149 Earth.


    so no 'starting over" but "continuing on".
    The part you are missing is that earth is doomed by population. Go back into the past, build a civilization. Make clean power while the population is low. Earth has a head start, clean power, and doesn't have 3 billion deadbeats to deal with. How does this not turn out great? They'll likely be sparefaring within 500 years.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrismike View Post
    There are sitting in a future metropolitan area. They also have knowledge of where mines were located in the future.
    Actually, that might not be the case.

    First, the continents of today are not the same as they were 85 million years ago. We also do not know if the rift places a traveler in the same space, but at a different time. It's possible that it could place a traveler in a different location, such as you start in New York but wind up in what is present day Nebraska, only 85 million years ago.

    And even if the location was exactly the same (eg. New York), there is a very good possibility that the land mass on which the starting point in 2149 is located could well be submerged in the Atlantic, be the top of a mountain range in Europe, or not even have been created in 85 million BC. Plate Tectonics have caused massive land shifts over the centuries.



    This also speaks to whether or not the population of Terra Nova could go to a particular site and find a specific metal. Continental Drift means that they cannot be sure of finding anything without doing a standard kind of mineral survey.

    And assuming they do find something, if they remove a particular non-renewable resource (in sufficient quantities) from the ground in 85 million BC, then it will not be there to be mined in 7,000 BC, 1900 AD or in 2149. It will be gone and history would have been changed.

    regards,
    G.
    Go for Marty...

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollumpus View Post
    Actually, that might not be the case.

    First, the continents of today are not the same as they were 85 million years ago. We also do not know if the rift places a traveler in the same space, but at a different time. It's possible that it could place a traveler in a different location, such as you start in New York but wind up in what is present day Nebraska, only 85 million years ago.

    And even if the location was exactly the same (eg. New York), there is a very good possibility that the land mass on which the starting point in 2149 is located could well be submerged in the Atlantic, be the top of a mountain range in Europe, or not even have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGcDed4xVD4

    This also speaks to whether or not the population of Terra Nova could go to a particular site and find a specific metal. Continental Drift means that they cannot be sure of finding anything without doing a standard kind of mineral survey.

    And assuming they do find something, if they remove a particular non-renewable resource (in sufficient quantities) from the ground in 85 million BC, then it will not be there to be mined in 7,000 BC, 1900 AD or in 2149. It will be gone and history would have been changed.

    regards,
    G.
    I agree with what you've said here...except the last paragraph. The show already established this was an alternate time line. So, it wouldn't affect the future...at least not our future.

  8. #28
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    The part you are missing is that earth is doomed by population. Go back into the past, build a civilization. Make clean power while the population is low. Earth has a head start, clean power, and doesn't have 3 billion deadbeats to deal with. How does this not turn out great? They'll likely be sparefaring within 500 years.

    yes, but resources are one big problem. Earth itself can't sustain a population like that. but two earths CAN.

    2149 earth would be much more consumerist and TN earth would be the producer. it will likely fck up TN earth but who cares since it's not ours

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by LtColCarter View Post
    I agree with what you've said here...except the last paragraph. The show already established this was an alternate time line. So, it wouldn't affect the future...at least not our future.
    Yup. That post was a continuation of thoughts, addressing some previous posts where folks seemed a bit unclear as to whether Terra Nova is in regular time or in an alternate timeline, and my thoughts on how the colony could not exist in the 2149 time line.

    I am in the alternate time line camp.

    regards,
    G.
    Go for Marty...

  10. #30
    Major General LtColCarter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollumpus View Post
    Yup. That post was a continuation of thoughts, addressing some previous posts where folks seemed a bit unclear as to whether Terra Nova is in regular time or in an alternate timeline, and my thoughts on how the colony could not exist in the 2149 time line.

    I am in the alternate time line camp.

    regards,
    G.
    ok...that makes sense now.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by LtColCarter View Post
    The show did establish that they traveled back in time to an alternate Earth. Beyond that...everything is speculation.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but they only established that they travelled to an alternative Earth, it was never established (for me) that they went back in time, it was only assumed they went back in time because of what was there.

    When they sent the probe back, they couldn't find it in the future, which means it either never went back in time, it went to an alternative universe, or both (this is of course ignoring their lame arse excuse of it went to an alternative timstream, which makes no sense at all).

    I know the premise of the show is that they went back in time, but it's not like shows writers to lie to us over the premise of a show to get a big payoff later is it?

    The Dinosaurs are also not accurate for the time period they're supposed to be in, which is either poor writing, or another clue - just depends how clever or lazy the producers have been as to whether it actually means something in the long term.

    My gut tells me they've just been slap happy with the details rather than seeding little foreshadows in for payoff later like Moffat does with DrWho, but given what we've been told and shown, if I were writing I'd have a huge game changer event lined up for the finale which would explain all these little things that are just not quiet right.

    I'm in the alternative universe camp
    Last edited by Ian-S; October 31st, 2011 at 10:39 AM.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    (this is of course ignoring their lame arse excuse of it went to an alternative timstream, which makes no sense at all).
    why is this lame. i am not quite sure how to picture a time stream, but basically the tear in time is a wormhole in the truest sense and the hardest sci fi. it links to a place quite like earth. in terms of multidimensional physics, we're not even in infancy. more like the part where the sperm is created and the eggs mature.

    Quantum Physics does not rule out the alternative time stream. Relativity does not rule out the alternative time stream. the only thing that MIGHT is energy, as the energy required for a wormhole like that to be opened would require far more than 2 LHC's.


    otherwise, it's actually pretty logical and makes sense.


    I'm in the alternative universe camp
    i am not sure what the difference is between this and the alternate time stream. in fact, i believe Alternate Timeline, Alternate universe and Alternate Timestream are different names for the same thing.


    after all, time is a set dimension. alter it and you alter the other dimensions. by physics, an alternate timeline immediately is an alternate universe. same for Timestream.

    The Dinosaurs are also not accurate for the time period they're supposed to be in, which is either poor writing, or another clue - just depends how clever or lazy the producers have been as to whether it actually means something in the long term.
    unless it's a historic documentary, few writers ever want to get it down to the very last detail. besides i believe the main argument for the dinosaurs is that Spielberg does not wan to use the same ones as in his Jurrasic Park.


    plus, i don't find it disturbing and i believe some 90% of the people who watch it, if not 99.99% do not care.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.

    -ALTERNATE TIMELINE V SAME UNIVERSE-
    In the 1st episode the moon is closer to the earth as it would have been (though i think a little exagerated for TV). This says that it is the past unless you beleive they've connected to an alternate universe that didn't start until 85 million years after ours.

    -ENDGAME-
    As for the "they all get killed by a meteorite or science experiment gone wrong". Yes technically possible but you need to remember this is TV land. Terra Nova is being biled as a family friendly show so I don't think they would end it like that.

    -ONE WAY TIME PORTAL-
    I'm thinking the time portal is always maintained as a small apeture to allow direct radio contact. Reverse travel is only impossible because there isn't a human size "sending" mechanism, what everybody has been calling the particle accelerators, on the TN side.

    -THE SIXERS-
    They haven't said whether the Terra Nova project and Hope Plaza are purely American ventures or if the entire planet of the 2140s is behind it. Depending on that I think the Sixers are a subversive group sent by either the other contries trying to get in on the American's TN monopoly. Or they are part of a group from the future looking for profit or power similar to the rougue NID from SG1. They have co-conpirators on the Hope Plaza end and a method of sending concealed signals through TN data feed.

    -QUARICH.... ERRR.... TAYLOR'S SON-
    Obviously some kind of science genius I think Taylor's son might have been sent back to gather data and see if reverse travel and altering the future was possible. He and his dad have a falling out over whether it would be morally right to do so v simply starting civilisation anew and now he is continuing to work on the problem and leaving notes for daddy dearest to show that his arguement has teeth.

    My own theories:

    I accept that they are in an alternate timeline because that opens more possibilities without having to deal with paradoxes and predestination problems within their own universe.

    Endgame Possibility A) The future eventually loses contact with TN when they no longer have the resources to maintain the portal. At his point the scientifically advanced decendents of TN who have finally built a sending device on their end come through to the future with the resources and technology to save the planet. Why didn't they do this earlier, because then they might have interfered with the events that established their civilisation in the first place.

    Endgame Possibility B) The writers and studio bail on us and give us an ambiguous 'and they carried on forever into an uncertain future' type ending like the end of SGU or so many other shows recently.

    Endgame Possibility C) The show gets canned, ends on a cliffhanger and we never find anything out unless you count the few inevitable books that may or may not be considered canon.

    Endgame Possibility D) Wouldn't have a clue. Please not ancient aliens.

    Any thoughts? Or am I full of crap?

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.(S1 Spoilers/Spec)

    the first time i saw the equations i actually thought "aliens".


    the Endgame: why not the camera zooming out on an advanced Terra Nova, further and further into space, and then a big asteroid and a tag "the end"

  15. #35

    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.(S1 Spoilers/Spec)

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    remember when Taylor said that he was the first man, but the second did not show up untill 118 days or so later?
    Why is that? Why don't the other settlers experience the same effect?

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.(S1 Spoilers/Spec)

    given that the "time machine" would have been pretty much a prototype, the messing about with the wormhole could've caused it to go back further in time or less far

  17. #37

    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.(S1 Spoilers/Spec)

    You know I have been thinking about a few things while re-watching Terra Nova on Hulu. One is that in 'Nightfall' Jim said that the Eye was something that did not exist in this world or back in 2142. If they are trying to devise a way back to the future but several years earlier then when they left (like for instance before Taylor went over seas to Somalia) then they would know all of the information and details of certain conflicts and such to give them the upper hand. All of the information about everything ever known is a very valuable information for people in the right places.

    You also have to consider the amount of energy that is required for time travel. In 2142 being able to produce a lot of energy for time travel might not be that hard, but for TN the problem could be one that needs to be solved.

    You could also look at the daydreaming side of it and think about the timeline and consider that TN could be a start of Stargate with us being the ancients.
    Science fiction is an existential metaphor that allows us to tell stories about the human condition. Isaac Asimov once said, "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if are to be saved at all."

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.(S1 Spoilers/Spec)

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    why is this lame......
    You make a good point about the 3 descriptions maybe being the same. To me it just seems it's their way of avoiding the Grandfather paradox. I dunno, I could just be being picky but it doesn't sit right that when they went back "in time" it created a new timeline - surely if it did that, then by conventional time-travel theory, it would delete the timeline they came from (like in BTTF2), so there would be no more people coming through etc. Maybe they just didn't want to use the words Alternative Universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by ajiva View Post
    Why is that? Why don't the other settlers experience the same effect?
    Maybe it was as simple as after they sent Taylor through, they waited 118 days before sending through a platoon?
    (A bit like what happened when they sent that guy through the stargate in the 60's - when the rope broke they assumed he was dead and didn't send anybody else only to discover years later he was alive - can't remember the episode title sorry)

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.(S1 Spoilers/Spec)

    i watched VS and i was right.

    the true purpose is to use Terra Nova as a resource ground.

    You make a good point about the 3 descriptions maybe being the same. To me it just seems it's their way of avoiding the Grandfather paradox. I dunno, I could just be being picky but it doesn't sit right that when they went back "in time" it created a new timeline - surely if it did that, then by conventional time-travel theory, it would delete the timeline they came from (like in BTTF2), so there would be no more people coming through etc. Maybe they just didn't want to use the words Alternative Universe.
    well one point is, Alternate universe kind of rings a bell to everyone. it gives prejudice. Terra Nova is kind of an Alternate universe, but in the past. the exact amount of difference between Terra Nova and 2149 would determine what terminology applies.


    although technically an Alternate Timeline, since it was discovered and not made, it means that it existed before. this makes it an Alternate Universe. however it's not really "alternate" as, while many things are similar, it's not much of an AU in traditional terms of "what if X was never born" or so.

    it's in a different Timestream, and it kind of allows the writers freedom of to what degree they can make the times different. it might just be an alternate form of Earth where time flows slower.

    Maybe it was as simple as after they sent Taylor through, they waited 118 days before sending through a platoon?
    (A bit like what happened when they sent that guy through the stargate in the 60's - when the rope broke they assumed he was dead and didn't send anybody else only to discover years later he was alive - can't remember the episode title sorry)
    Tornment of Tantalus. and yes that crossed my mind.


    Occam's razor suggests that the connection was either broken, a malfunction occurred or the power production was not sufficient to allow a new contact.
    (for power-consuming experiments, the powerplants are called to determine wheter there is enough capacity to do the experiment)

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Terra Nova - The True Purpose of Terra Nova.(S1 Spoilers/Spec)

    Occam's razor?

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