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    Lt. Col. Mcoy and Gormagon's Biblical debate.

    Originally this thread was supposed to be mainly for myself and Lt. Col., but it has been opened up to other peeps, as you will see.

    Biblical questions are welcome, but I must warn you this thread has become so chaotic and messy I may miss a question. Beware the chaos ahead....

    You may also PM me a question for anonymity if you wish.


    Ok, right now the main issues we were discussing involve the seven creative days and weather or not the Nephilim were actually hybrid sons of Angels and human woman or if they were just men of fame.

    Nephilim.

    Genesis 6: 2-2*then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men

    Job 1: 6-Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah,(YHWH) and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them


    So that would mean it was in heaven.

    Job 38: 7-When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
    And all the sons of God began shouting in applause.

    In Job 38 God is speaking to Job about his creation.

    Jude verse 6-And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

    That refers to the Genesis account. Context. Context is very important.

    2 Peter 2: 4-Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar-ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment

    ^Connects with Jude 6. That means that there were sinful angels, and the sinful angels did not die in the flood, they were not men they are still being reserved for judgement according to these scriptures.

    Seven days.

    What is the length of the creative days? Were they literally 24 hours long? Some claim that because Moses the writer of Genesis later referred to the day the followed the six creative days as a model for the weekly Sabbath, each of the creative days must be literally 24 hours long.

    A fact, the Hebrew word translated "day" can mean various lengths of time, not just 24 hours. For example, when summarizing Gods creative work, Moses refers to all the six days as one day (Genesis 2:4).

    A careful consideration of the Genesis account reveals that events starting during one "day" continued into one or more of the following "days". For example, before the first creative "day" started, light from the already existing sun was somehow prevented from reaching the Earth's surface, possibly by thick clouds.(Job 38 9, again referring to the chapter of Job 38.)

    During this first "day" this barrier began to clear, allowing diffused light to penetrate the atmosphere. On the second "day", the atmosphere evidently continued to clear, creating a space between the thick clouds and the ocean below. On the fourth "day" the atmosphere gradually cleared to such an extent that that the sun and the moon were made to appear "in the expanse of the heavens" .
    Genesis 1:14-16.
    In other words, from the perspective of a person on Earth(Had there been any at this time) the sun and the moon began to be discernible. These events happened gradually.

    When studying the Bible it is important to remember that one must take into account the WHOLE Bible. Not just a part or a single verse, and you must remember context.

    Our only official website- http://www.watchtower.org/ There are many that are not ours.
    Last edited by Gormagon; 24 September 2011, 11:13 AM.
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    #2
    Originally posted by Gormagon View Post
    I currently am putting together my side, no one post anything yet please.
    Why wouldn't you do that before you post?

    Also: who the hell is Lt Col Mcoy?
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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      #3
      Originally posted by Gormagon View Post
      I currently am putting together my side, no one post anything yet please.
      Why didn't you just wait until you've got your side put together before posting this topic?
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        #4
        Each day of creation has a evening and morning, which would be an odd thing to include if the word day (in that particular verse) was intended to represent ions of time.

        *Runs far away from GW religious thread now*
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          #5
          it's six days. SIX days of creation. the 7th was resting

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            #6
            Originally posted by thekillman View Post
            it's six days. SIX days of creation. the 7th was resting
            Yes it was. A rest from creation.

            Moses refers to all the six days as one day
            sigpicHe who controls the spice controls the universe!(And the kitchen.)

            If you enjoy Minecraft or have never played but like building and exploring please check out Craftyn.com and apply for roamer status on the server at http://www.craftyn.com/forms/2/respond It is a well modded towny type server with a strong core community and lots of mini games and events. My user name is TrueGormagon and you are welcome to join the great city of Eden, Craftyns oldest player made city. (2011)

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              #7
              Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
              Why wouldn't you do that before you post?
              Also: who the hell is Lt Col Mcoy?
              Why didn't you just wait until you've got your side put together before posting this topic?
              Because I was still collecting stuff and I am not that experienced at threads yet.

              And he is another user.
              sigpicHe who controls the spice controls the universe!(And the kitchen.)

              If you enjoy Minecraft or have never played but like building and exploring please check out Craftyn.com and apply for roamer status on the server at http://www.craftyn.com/forms/2/respond It is a well modded towny type server with a strong core community and lots of mini games and events. My user name is TrueGormagon and you are welcome to join the great city of Eden, Craftyns oldest player made city. (2011)

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                #8
                I like what this guy has to say on the issue of the Nephilim...

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70zhUgK1uMg

                (Can't embed because it says invalid url).

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                  #9
                  Ok first off, and no one freak out over this, but crucifixion is not a Biblical teaching.

                  He was put on a torture stake. The stake was a common way of executing criminals in the days of Rome. (Obviously Jesus was not actually a criminal.)

                  It would have made so sense anyway, a cross would have balanced people weight and made it a far less painful form of punishment. I can provide evidence that shows that the cross is not Biblical if required.
                  sigpicHe who controls the spice controls the universe!(And the kitchen.)

                  If you enjoy Minecraft or have never played but like building and exploring please check out Craftyn.com and apply for roamer status on the server at http://www.craftyn.com/forms/2/respond It is a well modded towny type server with a strong core community and lots of mini games and events. My user name is TrueGormagon and you are welcome to join the great city of Eden, Craftyns oldest player made city. (2011)

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Gormagon View Post
                    Ok first off, and no one freak out over this, but crucifixion is not a Biblical teaching.

                    He was put on a torture stake. The stake was a common way of executing criminals in the days of Rome. (Obviously Jesus was not actually a criminal.)

                    It would have made so sense anyway, a cross would have balanced people weight and made it a far less painful form of punishment. I can provide evidence that shows that the cross is not Biblical if required.
                    Jesus, under Mosaic law, committed blasphemy. He said he was the son of God. Under Mosaic law, that's worthy of the Death Penalty.
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                      #11
                      Actually alot of man made laws were added onto the Mosaic law.


                      According to the Jews he committed blasphemy. He fulfilled prophecies that proved he was the son of God, the Messiah, including ones that he could have not faked, such as were he was born.


                      John 1:14- So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth

                      John 3:16-“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

                      Matthew 3 :16-17 After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. 17*Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

                      He never said he was God, he said he was Gods son.
                      Last edited by Gormagon; 20 September 2011, 01:37 PM.
                      sigpicHe who controls the spice controls the universe!(And the kitchen.)

                      If you enjoy Minecraft or have never played but like building and exploring please check out Craftyn.com and apply for roamer status on the server at http://www.craftyn.com/forms/2/respond It is a well modded towny type server with a strong core community and lots of mini games and events. My user name is TrueGormagon and you are welcome to join the great city of Eden, Craftyns oldest player made city. (2011)

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                        #12
                        So ... am I supposed to post now?

                        This cross stuff seems a bit odd -- frankly, I'm really getting concerned now.


                        Anyhow, this might be easier if we took a point-by-point approach to the whole issue, and just keep a backlog of whatever thing we want to discuss next. How about you just write up a post fully explaining your position on the Nephilim (to start with), and then I'll reply. Others chiming in as they will.

                        Oh, and please source which translation you use for citations. I also think it'd be good to relate our doctrinal background: I, for example, am a conservative Presbyterian, hold the 66 books of the Protestant Bible as true Scripture, and subscribe (generally) to the doctrines set forth in the Westminster Standards.
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                          #13
                          I use the new world translation of the Holy scriptures. The only difference between it and the King James is that the "thees" and "thows" and other wordings no longer used are taken out and replaced with modern English, and Gods name is put back in were it was removed. And yes, 66 books, Gen-Rev.

                          Anyhow, this might be easier if we took a point-by-point approach to the whole issue, and just keep a backlog of whatever thing we want to discuss next. How about you just write up a post fully explaining your position on the Nephilim (to start with), and then I'll reply. Others chiming in as they will.
                          Yes. I am gonna be logged out for a while though.
                          sigpicHe who controls the spice controls the universe!(And the kitchen.)

                          If you enjoy Minecraft or have never played but like building and exploring please check out Craftyn.com and apply for roamer status on the server at http://www.craftyn.com/forms/2/respond It is a well modded towny type server with a strong core community and lots of mini games and events. My user name is TrueGormagon and you are welcome to join the great city of Eden, Craftyns oldest player made city. (2011)

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Gormagon View Post
                            I use the new world translation of the Holy scriptures. The only difference between it and the King James is that the "thees" and "thows" and other wordings no longer used are taken out and replaced with modern English, and Gods name is put back in were it was removed.
                            Eh, I might take issue with that in some cases, but in general, sure. I'll probably be using the New American Standard Bible as a base, though I tend to restore the literal phrasing and the tetragrammaton (YHWH). I may also cite directly from the original language, providing an interlinear translation if I do.
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                              #15
                              Yes you should look at it in the context of when it was originally written: A simple race like humanity was back then, would not understand the concept of the universe being billions of years old and it's more understandable to pass knowledge in language that people understand (i.e. in days), also remember that Genesis wasn't written until the days of Moses.

                              The next problem is the translation: The books of the Bible have been translated from Aramaic to greek/latin to English/other modern languages: words are going to be lost in translation. The other thing is, before Moses wrote Genesis, everything was by word of mouth (think chinese whispers), so words will be lost there.

                              Then we move to the council of Nicea: Why were those 66/72 books chosen? This is the same council that had to take a vote on whether women had souls.

                              This is why I make the statement: you shouldn't take the Bible too literally. Now I'm not denying that certain historical events may have taken place (the flood of Noah is referred to in various civilisations (the name gilgamesh in China, I believe).)

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