Goa'uld versus Tok'ra

[Dave2]

The distinctions between Goa'uld and Tok'ra demonstrate that in fact the whole life cycle of the goa'uld is a learned behavior from the swamp. If a given birthed goa'uld is swimming around waiting to be placed with a Jaffa, does that mean that a baby Tok'ra also needs a Jaffa? In either case, has anyone explained anything about the origins of Goa'uld evolution at the point one or more of them realized that they could benefit from living in a host Unas (to begin with anyway) and started the process? If there was a history of voluntary hosting with the Unas that would be further evidence that the arrogant traits of the goa'ulds are not genetic or inherent, but learned by each and every individual, presumably from when he is still in the primordial swamp and hasn't even had the "honor" of developing in a Jaffa.
And the Tok'ra originated in the same swamps/lakes, and presumably require the same development via a Jaffa. But if they eventually become different "people," then we see the traits of the goa'uld are learned behaviors and there is nothing truly genetic about it at all.

[escyos]

The Tok'ra were spawned from a Goa'uld Queen Egeria about 2,000 years ago. She felt that the Goa'uld and their subjugation of hosts was wrong so she spawned her movement.

The symbiotes would have probably been distributed like Goa'uld into Jaffa to mature and taken hosts as usual but then moved to other hosts when they could.

[Dave2]

The Tok'ra were spawned from a Goa'uld Queen Egeria about 2,000 years ago. She felt that the Goa'uld and their subjugation of hosts was wrong so she spawned her movement.

The symbiotes would have probably been distributed like Goa'uld into Jaffa to mature and taken hosts as usual but then moved to other hosts when they could.

How did she start spawning as a humanoid?
So have the Tok'ra had their own Jaffa, and who has been producing the Tok'ra over the centuries?
And if there isn't the same need to have a host among Tok'ra, did most just remain in the water?

[webxro]

Nope as soon as Ra found out he locked Egeria and probably hunted every tok'ra he could find .So i won't say centuries .

[Skadi]

Symbiotes doesn't have to grow up in a Jaffa - they can grow up in a lake (as they do in "Cure"). Most likely the Tok'ra would have had to do so, as Egeria would have been hunted by Ra, etc. and have no Jaffa, for most of the years during which she spawned Tok'ra.

And the Goa'uld/Tok'ra queens can spawn while in a host. Hathor does that in the episode "Hathor", after getting "Code of life" (DNA) from Daniel, to use for including in her kids' DNA, to make them compatible with humans. We don't know how the queens spawn while in humans, but I have seen many stories which assume the queens are longer than ordinary symbiotes and connect to - ah - the equipment that is already there in human females, and then give birth that way...

Egeria changed her children to become Tok'ra, but some Goa'uld have changed on their own (like Egeria, and possibly Jolinar and Garshaw). As someone else said, the oldest of the Tok'ra were born only about 2000 years ago - long after the location of the original Goa'uld home world had been forgotten.

[escyos]

How did she start spawning as a humanoid?
So have the Tok'ra had their own Jaffa, and who has been producing the Tok'ra over the centuries?
And if there isn't the same need to have a host among Tok'ra, did most just remain in the water?

Queens can spawn when still in a host. It is possible that the Tok'ra may have had some Jaffa but we may never know, Jolinar was mentioned to having an army at one point. I would say that Egeria spawned maybe two sets of symbiotes as they often woudd say that Selmak was the oldest of the Tok'ra and it would be a little pointless saying that if Selmak was only like 1 min older than the others

Primordial symbiotes did not require a host or Jaffa to survive but modern ones do unless their environment has similar conditions to that within a symbiote pouch (e.g fluids, constant electrical charge etc)

[traylormatt]

Is it not the case that the Goa'uld use the Jaffa to bring the symbiotes to maturity as it makes the Jaffa dependent on the Goa'uld which would surely suggest that the Tok'ra would never use humans in such a way.

[fems]

I was under the impression that letting a larva mature in the pouch of a Jaffa would increase the chance of a successful blending with a human host (once they're mature enough to take a host) up to 50% or so. That that was the reason the Jaffa are "incubators" and of course, them being foot soldiers is a nice bonus.

[SF_and_Coffee]

The distinctions between Goa'uld and Tok'ra demonstrate that in fact the whole life cycle of the goa'uld is a learned behavior from the swamp. If a given birthed goa'uld is swimming around waiting to be placed with a Jaffa, does that mean that a baby Tok'ra also needs a Jaffa?

Life cycles are biological, not "learned behavior".

And the Tok'ra originated in the same swamps/lakes, and presumably require the same development via a Jaffa. But if they eventually become different "people," then we see the traits of the goa'uld are learned behaviors and there is nothing truly genetic about it at all.

The traits of the Goa'uld are genetic to the extent that their memories are passed genetically from one generation to the next. Obviously, they learn things on top of that genetic memory. So it is both, but even Goa'uld have free will and can opt to break with the traditions of their ancestors and live differently, as Egeria has done and also as several Goa'uld who have left Goa'uld society to become Tok'ra may have done as well. (There is some debate about this, but it is widely accepted among fandom that at least some Tok'ra were born Goa'uld, generally the ones whose names include "of ____". If so, then Jolinar and Garshaw were originally Goa'uld. This would also explain statements about Jolinar having had an army, as this would have occurred while she was still Goa'uld. In fact, this is additional evidence for her having originally been Goa'uld, because it is given in canon that the Tok'ra do not lead armies, preferring instead to operate by subterfuge and stealth.)

The Tok'ra were spawned from a Goa'uld Queen Egeria about 2,000 years ago. She felt that the Goa'uld and their subjugation of hosts was wrong so she spawned her movement.

The symbiotes would have probably been distributed like Goa'uld into Jaffa to mature and taken hosts as usual but then moved to other hosts when they could.

Yes, this is most likely what happened; Egeria may well have had Jaffa who were loyal to her and would have served this purpose willingly.

How did she start spawning as a humanoid?

Who says she spawned as a humanoid? (I assume that you mean spawning while in a host?) We don't know whether she spawned while in a host or outside of one. We don't know much of the details on that for ANY symbiote queen.

So have the Tok'ra had their own Jaffa, and who has been producing the Tok'ra over the centuries?
And if there isn't the same need to have a host among Tok'ra, did most just remain in the water?

NO. There have been no new Tok'ra produced since Egeria was captured roughly 2,000 years ago (give or take a couple of centuries; the timeframe is vague). Egeria was the only known Tok'ra queen, and all Tok'ra are her children, with the exception of whatever very small number of Goa'uld may have defected to the Tok'ra over the centuries. None of those have been queens. So no one had been producing Tok'ra babies, and therefore they have not needed Jaffa. The Tok'ra don't even really like the Jaffa very much during the timeframe of the show.

Symbiotes doesn't have to grow up in a Jaffa - they can grow up in a lake (as they do in "Cure"). Most likely the Tok'ra would have had to do so, as Egeria would have been hunted by Ra, etc. and have no Jaffa, for most of the years during which she spawned Tok'ra.

Actually, the symbiotes in "Cure" didn't grow up to adulthood. IIRC, they never made it out of the infantile stage where all symbiotes swim in an aquatic environment, which even Goa'uld symbiotes do prior to being implanted in Jaffa. So we really don't know how Egeria handled the later stage of her offspring's larval development when the Tok'ra were initially being formed, although I've speculated above.

And the Goa'uld/Tok'ra queens can spawn while in a host. Hathor does that in the episode "Hathor", after getting "Code of life" (DNA) from Daniel, to use for including in her kids' DNA, to make them compatible with humans. We don't know how the queens spawn while in humans, but I have seen many stories which assume the queens are longer than ordinary symbiotes and connect to - ah - the equipment that is already there in human females, and then give birth that way...

I've seen that sort of speculation in fandom myself. Makes for interesting material!

Egeria changed her children to become Tok'ra, but some Goa'uld have changed on their own (like Egeria, and possibly Jolinar and Garshaw). As someone else said, the oldest of the Tok'ra were born only about 2000 years ago - long after the location of the original Goa'uld home world had been forgotten.

Actually, the timeframe is probably more that the youngest Tok'ra were born then, just before Egeria was captured by Ra. The older Tok'ra would have been born earlier, and I view the lines that say Selmak is both one of the oldest Tok'ra and is 2,000 years old as being a logical continuity error on the part of the show's writers, since if Egeria was captured at that point and imprisoned, she wouldn't have been spawning more Tok'ra afterward, and the Tok'ra are said to be of different ages, so Selmak has to be older than 2,000 years. Wouldn't be the first time that a show's writers forgot to read their own "bible".

I was under the impression that letting a larva mature in the pouch of a Jaffa would increase the chance of a successful blending with a human host (once they're mature enough to take a host) up to 50% or so. That that was the reason the Jaffa are "incubators" and of course, them being foot soldiers is a nice bonus.

Yep.

[LtColCarter]

I was under the impression that letting a larva mature in the pouch of a Jaffa would increase the chance of a successful blending with a human host (once they're mature enough to take a host) up to 50% or so. That that was the reason the Jaffa are "incubators" and of course, them being foot soldiers is a nice bonus.

That was my understanding as well.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Mine as well.

[Gatefan1976]

SF & Coffee

You actually NEED a show bible to start with to forget it........

[SF_and_Coffee]

True...

See, if I were making a sci-fi show, I'd want to sit down and brainstorm my world-building and the basic biology and timelines of species involved before I just threw them together willy-nilly. (Silly me!)

[Gatefan1976]

True...

See, if I were making a sci-fi show, I'd want to sit down and brainstorm my world-building and the basic biology and timelines of species involved before I just threw them together willy-nilly. (Silly me!)

Now why would you waste your time doing that??

Ludicrous Idea!!

[Hathor_girl]

I was under the impression that letting a larva mature in the pouch of a Jaffa would increase the chance of a successful blending with a human host (once they're mature enough to take a host) up to 50% or so. That that was the reason the Jaffa are "incubators" and of course, them being foot soldiers is a nice bonus.

Actually, that was a later retcon, to 'get rid of' the idea of the queens getting the DNA from a male of the species they wanted their offspring to use as host (according to some of the producers). Hathor said that using "the code of life" from the intended host-species protected the symbiotes from rejection. Jaffa were made to have to carry a symbiote in order to have an immune system, to keep control of them - originally there was nothing about this being needed for the symbiotes.

Trying to incorporate both arguments, one could argue that

1) Either the queen could use DNA from the host species OR the symbiotes could grow up in Jaffa. Both would result in better chance at the symbiotes avoiding rejection.

2) Doing both increases the chances for the symbiote even further, so any responsible queen would make sure here kids both have human DNA included AND grow up in Jaffa

In any case, we only have Teal'c's statement that the symbiotes need to grow up in Jaffa to increase their chances of blending well with a host. He has been wrong (many) times before when talking about the Goa'uld - which is no surprise. Why would the Goa'uld tell the Jaffa everything about themselves? Even to their first prime? On the other hand, rumours must have surely surfaced among the Jaffa, true or false.

Another thing...if the symbiotes HAD to grow up in a Jaffa and could not grow up in a lake, why then the statement about those not growing up in Jaffa only having 50% chance of taking a host?

I have seen speculations saying that the symbiotes need a host or Jaffa when they have been in one, but not until then. Something about changing to adapt to/being able to connect to the nervous system etc. and so getting the weak electric field. That makes sense, actually, coupled with the "blends better after having been in a Jaffa" - the symbiotes would already have adapted to this electric field and are able to easily connect to the nervous system etc. after having connected to the Jaffa's system.