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  1. #1
    Chief Master Sergeant actuallyliam's Avatar
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    Default Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Is this episode saying this is what Earth would have been like if the dark ages never happened? They were created 2000 years ago, which is practically the same amount of time Christianity has been around. Theories? Both these recent episodes have had this feeling. Maybe I'm imagining things?

  2. #2
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    yea but these people had a huge tech boost since eli and stuff already new alot about technology and wrote books and stuff about it before they died so they advanced really quick

  3. #3
    Lieutenant Colonel
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    They didn;t have to deal with religious persecution and technology as heresy so they would be further ahead.

  4. #4
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    The Dark Ages only effected Western Europe.
    For those 600 years all scientific and cultural progress continued in Greece and the Middle East which were already more advanced than the West. It is progress from those areas that forms the basis for modern Western civilization.
    Asian countries were completely unaffected by the Dark Ages, China, Japan, Korea and India all continued to progress.

    It is a myth that we would be so much more advanced if the Dark Ages did not occur, they were an incredibly localized event.

  5. #5
    First Lieutenant padr49904's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Actually if you look back at SG-1 Sam compared the Tollan civilization to what Earth would of been like if there was no Dark Age.
    If they were new starting out they wouldn't of been even a quarter that advanced, what was brought with them and what all the people knew helped a lot with everything. The medical advances would never of happened without them getting the boost from the original colonizers, since it would be been a large number of years before they even knew how to do surgery, but with TJ there they didn't even have to really learn anything.

    And I wonder if any of the books Eli or any of the other crew had read were rewritten from memory for the enjoyment of others. I can just imagine a Harry Potter, Eli edition, everywhere on the planet.

  6. #6
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    yea but we didnt only have dark ages effect us we have many plagues and diseasers, a hell lot of wars etc

  7. #7
    Second Lieutenant Trinary's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Understanding about their universe made their civilization grow faster. They don't have to argue a century long whether their planet is sphere or flat.

  8. #8
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    As others have indicated, the "Dark Ages" weren't so "dark" and that pop tv/film tries to pin some sort of effect on that period of Western history is way, way overdone.

    And, as I and a few others tried to point out last week in commenting on the previous episode, the 2000 years allowed in the story really is too short. In my write up about this episode I didn't want to dwell on that weakness of the story as I thought episode 18 had too many charms to rain down heavy criticism upon it. Yet again I will point out that the Destiny crew suffered a labor shortage for the purposes of building a civilization, something which "Epilogue" glossed over.

  9. #9
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    2000 years ago they thought disease was magic. they couldn't even forge proper iron and steel didn't even exist.


    there are thousands of simple principles we have developed over time that 2000 years ago were unimaginable.


    also the Dark Ages weren't that dark. it wasn't significant in terms of science but it was in terms of culture.

  10. #10
    Airman Daralundy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    We might be considerably less advanced. The Roman Empire wasn't particularly scientifical inovative.

  11. #11
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    The Dark Ages only effected Western Europe.
    For those 600 years all scientific and cultural progress continued in Greece and the Middle East which were already more advanced than the West. It is progress from those areas that forms the basis for modern Western civilization.
    Asian countries were completely unaffected by the Dark Ages, China, Japan, Korea and India all continued to progress.

    It is a myth that we would be so much more advanced if the Dark Ages did not occur, they were an incredibly localized event.
    not entirely localised - trade would have have been affected to some extent too, and information/ideas travel alongside trade.

    the immediate ramifications of the dark ages were, indeed, fairly localised. but eastern and asian progress wasn't welcomed within western europe, preventing western europe from contributing their own ideas, making their own changes, or trying to compete. with the reverse effect of eastern/asian developments having less to compete with, allowing them to take longer in developing, but also with less 'foreign' ideas to provoke them into further development.

    i also agree that the ideas some people have as to how far advanced we would be without them is a bit mythical - i was discussing it with a friend lately who said something about our being 2000 years behind in our development because of it.

    however, between the dark ages, various wars, the burning of the library at alexandria, the various persecutions of new ideas - throughout our history, we've set ourselves back a good few hundred years, at least in local areas and i'd believe globally, simply by virtue of our own inability to save, share, and elaborate on various technologies and ideas.

    among all the disasters we've inflicted on ourselves, as well as various plagues and other things, i'd guess about 800-1000 years max - over at least the history of civilisation.




    novus has a major advantage because they haven't gone through all these disasters - they're developing ideas held by the modern-day destiny crew, and even if there are gaps in knowledge - e.g. medicine - with a basic starting point, a general understanding of science, and people like eli, rush, the rest of the scientists, and likely genius offspring somewhere along the way, they can develop things - even if they don't like having to do the stuff, they're smart enough to understand, and figure out what might be going wrong.

  12. #12
    Second Lieutenant The Destiny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    The Novus civilisation had a shortage of labour and tools ( not suprising if you're only starting out with about 60 people ), but made up for that with the knowledge left behind by the Destiny crew. Eli wrotes a boatload of books, most of that's gotta be useful. They also did not have to deal with war, plague, supression, stagnation etc. like we did on Earth. I imagine their history to be a lot more peaceful with the occasional skirmish. With that in mind Novus came out slightly ahead if us, being able to build spaceships although without FTL capabilities. The knowledge of destiny's crew must have been of immense value.

    And the funny thing is that they are most likely better at their history than us, because their early history was entirely recorded, which is unique.

  13. #13
    Colonel
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    they had an opportunity to learn from Earth's mistakes a thanks to their fresh start, it was easier for them to advance. I bet our civilisation won't be as advanced as Novas' in 2000 years

  14. #14
    Captain Steelbox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    One of the main "cause" of stagnation in the Dark Ages was because religion had an such upper hand on custumes the daily lives. In fact, there was not even one mention on Religion nor the panoramic view show any structure resembling a Church. Also when technologies advance new finds are make a lot quiker so the advancements of a society are geometric so you can't judge simply by looking.

    Can someone make the math, can a society started by 60 odd people reach 1 million in 2000 years?
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  15. #15
    First Lieutenant Kaiphantom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    The Dark Ages only effected Western Europe.
    For those 600 years all scientific and cultural progress continued in Greece and the Middle East which were already more advanced than the West. It is progress from those areas that forms the basis for modern Western civilization.
    Asian countries were completely unaffected by the Dark Ages, China, Japan, Korea and India all continued to progress.

    It is a myth that we would be so much more advanced if the Dark Ages did not occur, they were an incredibly localized event.
    Not entirely true. Europe was far beyond other civilizations for a long time; the dark ages allowed the rest of the world to catch up quite a bit. If Europe had no dark ages, we would be several hundred years more advanced by now.

    The dark ages were partly a result of things like the black plague wiping out humanity, and religions. Knowledge of proper medicine helps the former, and for the latter, we need to analyze exactly why religion came about.

    When someone had a seizure back in olden days, no one else could explain it. No one could really explain dreams. So, people made up explanations that involved higher powers, and treated things like coincidence as really being signs from spirits or gods, etc. The Novian civilization already had knowledge of these things with a good grounding in the scientific mindset, so religions wouldn't have been able to take hold.

    The other major reason for religion, was a way to control groups larger than a certain number. As long as they believed an omnipotent god or gods was watching them, they'd behave and act the way you wanted them to even if you weren't around (and you just need to hand out holy edicts to keep them acting your way). The Novians got around this, since they drew up things like a constitution early, and thus based rule on law, instead of on a divine entity.

    Without religion or disease holding them back as much, it wouldn't have surprised me to see them advance far beyond Earth of today.

  16. #16
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiphantom View Post
    Not entirely true. Europe was far beyond other civilizations for a long time; the dark ages allowed the rest of the world to catch up quite a bit. If Europe had no dark ages, we would be several hundred years more advanced by now.
    Not true at all.

    At the time of the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 450 AD and the start of the Dark Ages for Western Europe, the Eastern Roman Empire which contained Greece and the Middle East was already much more advanced culturally, scientifically and economically.

    The Eastern Roman Empire continued on unimpeded by any dark ages until the 1500s and developed things like the basis for modern mathematics, chemistry and philosophy.
    Asian civilizations like China, Japan, Korea and India all continued to flourish.

    To think that we would be more advanced now if Western Europe had not had the Dark Ages is to take a very Western-centric view of history and in this case is completely wrong.

  17. #17
    Captain Gollumpus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Would we be more advanced if there was no Dark Ages in Europe? Sure. We would also likely be even more advanced if there had not been various purges of whole areas of learning in China due to changes of philosophies or the whims of a new emperor.

    We are either a very dumb race for not learning from our past mistakes or a very bright one for being able to overcome ourselves.

    regards,
    G.
    Go for Marty...

  18. #18
    Staff Sergeant
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelbox View Post

    Can someone make the math, can a society started by 60 odd people reach 1 million in 2000 years?
    Easily - worked it our assuming everyone pairs up, having average of 3 children each who also pair up. Each generation lasting 30 year before next wave of children.
    The number is HUGE! Billions possible in that time frame.

  19. #19
    Staff Sergeant spaceship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    A lot of scientific progress was made in the Middle East during the European dark ages. Two scientists of note:

    Al Khwarizmi: Called the father of algebra. You can read about his many contributions to science online. But one thing I'd like to mention is that basis of all computer software is something called the algorithm which is a concept Al Khwarizmi came up with. Algorithm is actually a latin corruption of his name.

    ibn al-Haytham: Know as the father of optics. He also came up with the scientific method which is the basis of all scientific research even today.

    So to say that the world didn't progress during the dark ages is completely untrue. It ignores the works of great scientists and mathematicians of the middle east and east asia whose contributions are still relevant today.

  20. #20
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Earth if no Dark Ages?

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    Not true at all.

    At the time of the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 450 AD and the start of the Dark Ages for Western Europe, the Eastern Roman Empire which contained Greece and the Middle East was already much more advanced culturally, scientifically and economically.

    The Eastern Roman Empire continued on unimpeded by any dark ages until the 1500s and developed things like the basis for modern mathematics, chemistry and philosophy.
    Asian civilizations like China, Japan, Korea and India all continued to flourish.

    To think that we would be more advanced now if Western Europe had not had the Dark Ages is to take a very Western-centric view of history and in this case is completely wrong.
    D Toccs,

    Since you seem well verse in the subject, maybe I can pick your brain a bit. Would you agree that it is not as simple as saying we would be more advanced or we would not be?

    To take a "western-centric" view of history, is to take the view of history of the region that pulled together all the ideas that have led to the most advanced societies we have today. So, if someone is going to talk about how much further advanced humanity would be, what we are really saying is how much further the west would be? Otherwise, we'd have to concede that strict logic says Africa would have the hyper drives now, because that is where we think it all began. Actually, some sort of intelligent fish humanoid should have that honor.

    Its been a while, but didn't the western notion of linear time, linear thinking, lead to its linear progress? I remember being impressed by the concept when introduced to it. That the east had a circular reasoning that would basically keep certain cultures stuck in their traditions and way of thinking...

    If one could start the age of enlightenment hundreds of years sooner, logic would dictate, we'd be hundreds of years more advanced. But its not that simple. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention. So is war, or cold wars. Things happened the way they had to happen for us to get to where we are. Without a race to space, or nuclear build up etc...

    If we could simply cut out 500-700 years of darkness and start the history we know sooner, sure, we'd be 500-700 more advanced. However, if we starting changing events that had to happen to drive innovation... who knows what would have happened.

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