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  1. #141
    General majorsal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvenstarSRV View Post

    So I think Druitt himself stated the reasons for his collusion with Adam pretty clearly. I'm sure keeping himself from becoming Jack the Ripper was also a motivation, esp since in Haunted he was so eager to believe it was the entity alone that caused his bloodlust, but IMO his driving reason in this case seems to be to get back his relationship with Helen.

    Though he did ultimately come through and made the sacrifice of his sanity in order to allow Helen to go after Adam. I think Tesla's observation that Druitt would never hurt Helen still mostly holds true, since even when he does hurt her, he's willing to do whatever it takes to right that wrong. He did the same in S1, by first hurting/using Ashley to coerce Helen, and then helping Ashley help him save her from Tesla.
    i wonder if john's 'obsession' with helen is in part his jack-the-ripper impulses? i don't know the history of jtr, his motivations, but john's all-encompassing obsession with helen could maybe be out of his control???
    sally


  2. #142
    You call that a glowstick?
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    theoretically, it would have been one huge reset. John would never teleport and never be possessed, helen would never live forever, they might have had ashley normally and he'd have his chance for happy families.

    helen could still work with the abnormals, she'd just need to hand it off to someone else (at least in john's mind)

    he used adam to try and get back. we still don't know what bargain adam made with him in the 1800's to save him from the river, but adam and john seem to have a dark partnership going back over a century

  3. #143
    Major ann_sgcfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Regarding EvenstarSRV transcript post - good catch. I didn't go back far enough. LOL when I watched the scene I knew at some point I rolled my eyes - now I remember where.

    OK well I'll leave this alone now. LOL, because the more I try to make sense why the writers would have Helen and John be portrayed like this - the less I like both characters, at least in this scene.

  4. #144
    Major kes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
    Oh, that would have been very interesting, would Helen have been willing to undo that last 2 years of history in order to save Ashley? The impact on the world would have likely been much less since it was a far shorter jump back in time, though still significant esp to the Sanctuary network.
    Adam asks that in the ep. She says no.

  5. #145
    Captain EvenstarSRV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by majorsal View Post
    i wonder if john's 'obsession' with helen is in part his jack-the-ripper impulses? i don't know the history of jtr, his motivations, but john's all-encompassing obsession with helen could maybe be out of his control???
    Hmm, doubtful I think just because the two seem like opposites to me. JtR causes chaos and destruction while John's obsession has a very singular target and is more about building a family I think. Though I guess they could be two sides of the same coin, a sort of love/hate or good/evil duality.

    Quote Originally Posted by kes View Post
    Adam asks that in the ep. She says no.
    Ah, good point I forgot about that.



  6. #146
    You call that a glowstick?
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    it wasn't no as much as 'not at the cost of billions of people'

    so i think, had she been given an opportunity to get ashley back, with no consequences to anyone else, she very well would have considered it

  7. #147
    Major kes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    it wasn't no as much as 'not at the cost of billions of people'

    so i think, had she been given an opportunity to get ashley back, with no consequences to anyone else, she very well would have considered it
    Well, yes of course. Everyone would.
    But going back has consequences, so no.

  8. #148
    Ruffler Extraordinaire dipsofjazz's Avatar
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    Sam Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    <snip>
    we still don't know what bargain adam made with him in the 1800's to save him from the river, but adam and john seem to have a dark partnership going back over a century
    In 'King and Country' Adam makes a deal with John when they are in the water after Helen shot him.

    Down in the river. Druitt zorts into the water and pulls Adam up.

    Adam: John...

    Druitt: End of the line, old boy.

    Adam: They'll be coming for you next. Maybe they'll let Helen and Watson go free, but the ripper? They're going to hunt you forever. She'll hunt you forever.

    Druitt: I hope she does.

    Adam: My safety deposit box. Bank account in Kensington. The key's in my flat in Marylebone, on the mantelpiece.

    Druitt: What of it?

    Adam: Safe houses. Weapons, pass codes. Anything you need to help you avoid capture, it's yours.

    Druitt: I can't let you live, old boy.

    Adam: John...Let me die here like this. Please...Let me go.

    Druitt lets him go and Adam sinks.

    Druitt: <narrating>He was close to death.I let him go with honor.

    End of flashback.

    Druitt: He was as good as his word. Everything I found in his safe deposit box helped me avoid detection for the next 80 years.

    Magnus: His death gave us all a future.

    Druitt: Mmm.
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  9. #149
    Captain EvenstarSRV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by ann_sgcfan View Post
    Regarding EvenstarSRV transcript post - good catch. I didn't go back far enough. LOL when I watched the scene I knew at some point I rolled my eyes - now I remember where.

    OK well I'll leave this alone now. LOL, because the more I try to make sense why the writers would have Helen and John be portrayed like this - the less I like both characters, at least in this scene.
    I'm not sure either of them are meant to be particularly likeable in those scenes. Druitt risking the lives of billions for his own personal desires, and Helen betraying her motto of 'Sanctuary for All' by completely rejecting John.

    Druitt started to redeem himself by sacrificing his sanity to help Helen go after Adam, and I don't think Helen will be able to keep her back to John for long, too much history between them and ultimately he is an abnormal deserving of her help like any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by kes View Post
    Well, yes of course. Everyone would.
    But going back has consequences, so no.
    Yeah, Helen probably knows that even going back only a couple of years could have significant consequences that she couldn't predict, so she wouldn't risk it.



  10. #150
    Lieutenant Colonel Matt G's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    1. Praxis is toast! Ouch!

    2. Interesting to see that Helen tried to publicise the existence of abnormals in the late 1940s! That's a story I wouldn't mind seeing.

    3. OK...how the hell are you going to keep quiet the issue of a load of abnormals coming out from under the ground?

    4. Not sure why Helen followed Adam through the rift, going back in time is one hell of a gamble. She's now stuck in Victorian England and hell if I know how she's going to get back.

  11. #151
    Major kes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt G View Post
    4. Not sure why Helen followed Adam through the rift, going back in time is one hell of a gamble. She's now stuck in Victorian England and hell if I know how she's going to get back.
    She wasnt planning to get back. At that point I'm guessing: "I have to stop him" is what she was thinking.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    he used adam to try and get back. we still don't know what bargain adam made with him in the 1800's to save him from the river, but adam and john seem to have a dark partnership going back over a century
    From what I can remember of the episode I was left with the impression that rather than it being a pact Adam was dying and perhaps feeling a kinship with John (He may have seen it as both of them being pawns of Helen's given his warped view of her) he wanted to pass on his network to help John escape (getting one over on Helen at the same time by keeping John out of her clutches). I didn't read anything more into it.

    I did find parts of ITB a bit slow and boring but on the whole it was very ggod. I personally hope that we don't end up with all of Hollow Earth on the surface but I'm sure they will do it well if we do. I loved the ending with Helen just appearing with guns and leather outfit on the streets of old London and the way people were looking at her, the gentleman in the background starting to hurry his companion away whilst both looking at her.

    Before they said it was were Adam was working from did anyone else think those 2 power sources looked a bit like cryo pods? For a short while I thought that Ranna and her Dad would be in them, escaping the turmoil.

  13. #153
    First Lieutenant Feast of the Muse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by majorsal View Post
    was it ever explained in 'out of the blue' *why* helen and john were divorcing? something in helen's mind just doesn't want to accept happy with john. or, did helen create that reality in 'oftb', or were kate and henry responsible for it in some way?

    she loves john, she always will, but going from her loving attitude with him in 'for king and country' to her rejecting him, even with the events that lead up to her being *so* ticked at him... it just felt too sudden. too out of the blue.
    I have to say, when John came out with the truth about letting Adam live and why, I was behind Helen all the way. All this time she's been thinking he's redeemable, that if they got the parasite out, he'd be that sweet, serene John that we saw in Haunted. But he (assuming it is him talking, not the psycho) shows that he just never got it. All that effort he spent trying to be her man, and he misses the biggest thing there is about her. It broke my heart to realize that he just never got her. He was so focused on trying to win her, he didn't even see her for herself.

    Back in FKAC, he was all sweet and vulnerable and doped up. So her old feelings for him were kicked up as well as her doctor's instincts to try to soothe and heal him. She got double whammied on that one and let her guard down. But in these latest episodes, he's functioning as a member of the team. She's giving him responsibilities and trusting that he'll follow her orders, because hello, he'll do anything for her, right? Guess she miscalculated on that one. So, there you go with her reactions. It's all about her expectations of him, and in FKAC, she really had none except to tell her where Adam was.

    I think in OOTB that the creature just gave them the toxin, and their minds put them in their particular dreams. This would be very much like the original matrix, where the humans rejected the "perfect" world that was made for them. It is very much like the X-files episode Field Trip (6x21). I would like to know why Helen's mind made her an artist (who knew she harbored that interest?). And was the memory of Ashley too painful to be included at all? She invented a world where she'd been married to John in the past, he's left her in peace for a while, and she just wants him gone again, but no Ashley. I think her bliss world is just one where she's not constantly in emotional pain.

  14. #154
    First Lieutenant meredithchandler73's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Terrific insights, Feast of the Muse! I do love how wonderfully complicated the John-Helen relationship is. It's hard to tell just how much the energy creature living inside John affects him, but another thing that people may forget - he hasn't spent the last 100 years with Helen. Based on the episodes last season it seems that Helen found out that John was The Ripper and confronted him. They have no contact again until the episode For King and Country (about 20 years after the Ripper murders), but their interaction at that time seems to be mainly as part of The Five - working together to stop Adam Worth. Until the episode Normandy, I thought Helen didn't see John again until the first episode of the series - meaning three years ago. But again, their interaction in Normandy is brief. (There is more interaction between John and James in Normandy.) The fact is, until John came back "cured" for the first time (after Tesla's shock treatment seemed to temporarily subdue the creature inside him), the only Helen he really knew was from 100 years earlier. And while some things about a person don't change over a lifetime, lots of things do. I remember in the episode The Five when John has finally convinced Ashley to tell him where Helen is so he can help save her from Tesla - John and Ashley are in the underground catacombs and come upon spent shell casings. Ashley picks one up and confirms they are definitely her mom's. I'm paraphrasing, but John says, "Does your mother always carry a gun?" and after hearing distant shots Ashley replies, "With good reason." I remember thinking that I wished there were more moments like that early on - John learning about the present day Helen. But that actually fits with what we saw in Into The Black - how John is much more focused on the Helen of the past. Would he or could he learn to love the present day Helen?

    As I said, I love how wonderfully complex these characters are! I'm dying to see what happens next! In the past, no less!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Feast of the Muse View Post
    I think in OOTB that the creature just gave them the toxin, and their minds put them in their particular dreams. This would be very much like the original matrix, where the humans rejected the "perfect" world that was made for them. It is very much like the X-files episode Field Trip (6x21). I would like to know why Helen's mind made her an artist (who knew she harbored that interest?). And was the memory of Ashley too painful to be included at all? She invented a world where she'd been married to John in the past, he's left her in peace for a while, and she just wants him gone again, but no Ashley. I think her bliss world is just one where she's not constantly in emotional pain.
    I agree that Helen and Will's particular dreams created the world they were living in, not the creature. And
    certain parts of the reality Helen created for herself make sense - that she had loved John and it didn't work and she was able to move on from it - a parallel to the real world. (Just like Will being involved with Abby was expanded in the dream to being married with a kid on the way. Perhaps Will's dreams are what his parents wanted for him - to be a doctor, married and having kids.) I think Helen being an artist ties in with her never having had Ashley - she tells John that she wants to be left alone, doesn't want any responsibilities, or life and death situations. It made sense to me that there was choice of a job that doesn't interact with people. As Feast of the Muse said, she wanted to be rid of the emotional pain.

    Really looking forward to season 3 coming out on DVD. ONE MONTH! I'll be fascinated to hear commentary on this episode.

    Thanks to Starlover1990 for the banner

  15. #155
    Captain StarSancFar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Time travel is a tricky topic to choose in a show or film. There are many possibilities of how it would change events, there's the Doctor Who version that they use, then there's the 'Bill and Ted's excellent adventure play-out, Then there's star Trek, another example is on Stargate.....

    I know what I mean...basically if she goes back and e.g stops only john from taking the blood, then he won't be able to teleport and so wouldnt have warned her about adam in the future, and therefore helen wouldn't have gone back in time in the first place. So then the past has changed already, she wouldnt have stopped john from taking the blood, he would become a teleporter and he WOULD have warned her... Then the first scenario plays out again, then the second....it's basically a big loop of two different scenarios playing out....the future would never come into existence either after the 'going back in time bit'.

    Does anyone actually understand LOL, it's hard to explain

    P.S. Loved into the Black....oh I wonder what happens!!!
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  16. #156
    Lieutenant Colonel selene0789's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    You know, I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm not so sure that Magnus is completely writing off John, as of the last episode. She's pissed, absolutely, but I think the whole "I don't think we were ever meant to be together" is left over from the psych worm incident. In the mind!verse, her marriage with John didn't work out, but I think that may simply be part of the discordant factor of the verse itself.

    Like, a part of her mind knew it wasn't quite right, and the failed marriage and empty house and sleeping pills were all part of it. Otherwise, why wouldn't the psych worm just put her into a happy, loving home and family? The residual feeling of not-rightness might be feeding into her seemingly writing off the possibility of ever finding a way to be happy together.

    That said, I do think she's perfectly right to be ticked at him for trying/wanting to overwrite the person she'd become over the 150 years she's been alive. Ugh. Just the idea of a guy (or anyone) being callous enough to completely dismiss who a person is simply to have the person they think that person should be is just wholly inhuman and unnatural.

    But I do believe he has the best intentions. He wants to be happy-- who doesn't-- it just so happens he can't be happy in current circumstances... Oh my goodness. Something this complicated has got to qualify as epic love. One for the ages, literally!

    And I was also thinking, about what they could do with the possible rewrite of history that the time travel allows... It's totally not going to happen, but wouldn't be cool to see what would happen if current Magnus followed Adam back to 19th Century England, only to realize that he's murdered 19th Century Magnus because he perceived her as a threat? And then, with no way to get home after Adam is taken care of, current Magnus has to assume the role of 19th Century Magnus in order to preserve the timeline? And by trying to stick to the timeline and keep everything the same, she has to make all the same bad decisions and mistakes she made the first time around, only this time she's aware of the ramifications? And she has to relive all of the world's worst tragedies and crimes against humanity a SECOND time?

    I've got two words for you: DARK MAGNUS.

  17. #157
    Captain StarSancFar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Into the Black (320)

    Quote Originally Posted by selene0789 View Post
    You know, I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm not so sure that Magnus is completely writing off John, as of the last episode. She's pissed, absolutely, but I think the whole "I don't think we were ever meant to be together" is left over from the psych worm incident. In the mind!verse, her marriage with John didn't work out, but I think that may simply be part of the discordant factor of the verse itself.

    Like, a part of her mind knew it wasn't quite right, and the failed marriage and empty house and sleeping pills were all part of it. Otherwise, why wouldn't the psych worm just put her into a happy, loving home and family? The residual feeling of not-rightness might be feeding into her seemingly writing off the possibility of ever finding a way to be happy together.
    Thats a good theory, about the psych worm leaving a sort of imprint in her mind of uncertainty

    That said, I do think she's perfectly right to be ticked at him for trying/wanting to overwrite the person she'd become over the 150 years she's been alive. Ugh. Just the idea of a guy (or anyone) being callous enough to completely dismiss who a person is simply to have the person they think that person should be is just wholly inhuman and unnatural.

    But I do believe he has the best intentions. He wants to be happy-- who doesn't-- it just so happens he can't be happy in current circumstances... Oh my goodness. Something this complicated has got to qualify as epic love. One for the ages, literally!
    I agree, he deffo just wants to be happy, afterall, the source blood changed his life for the worse and he has to live with the fact that he's done all the horrible things to people. Now that he has a chance to change all of that, he will, and to be honest, who wouldn't?
    Epic love deffinately!

    And I was also thinking, about what they could do with the possible rewrite of history that the time travel allows... It's totally not going to happen, but wouldn't be cool to see what would happen if current Magnus followed Adam back to 19th Century England, only to realize that he's murdered 19th Century Magnus because he perceived her as a threat? And then, with no way to get home after Adam is taken care of, current Magnus has to assume the role of 19th Century Magnus in order to preserve the timeline? And by trying to stick to the timeline and keep everything the same, she has to make all the same bad decisions and mistakes she made the first time around, only this time she's aware of the ramifications? And she has to relive all of the world's worst tragedies and crimes against humanity a SECOND time?

    I've got two words for you: DARK MAGNUS.
    That would be an epic storyline, and I could see it happening, it's deffinately dark! But it would mess with the show's story in a way the producers would find difficult to get themselves out of, like what would the solution be?
    But having to live through your darkest hours again would be too much of a strain on her I think, she would just breakdown....
    Sig by Yamiinsane, Thanks!
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    Indeed

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