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  1. #1
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Protagonist Centered Morality

    I understand that all TV shows work on the system of protagonist centered morality, but this episode kinda annoyed me at the end.
    Wray and Greer both exposed the bodies of Covel and Michaels to lethal amounts of radiation, despite Telford telling them not to and explicitly saying "you're not in your own bodies." Then when Covel is quite justifiably angered by the situation and tries to save himself, everybody including Rush treat him like the jerkass to end all jerkasses. Young even says to him that he has no choice but to go back and that he has no right to help himself to Greer's body, what about Greer having no right to sacrifice Covel's body?
    I understand it was a difficult situation, but if it had been reversed and one of the crew was in Covel's shoes, then doing what he did would be seen as the right thing to do and Greer would have been viewed as the jerkass. Also where does Rush get off taking the moral high ground, he would have done exactly the same thing in Covel's place.
    End of rant.

  2. #2
    John Diggle DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Well, they were already exposed to a lethal level before there was a chance to save the two bodies they were inhabiting. And protagonist-centric morality or not, I can't see any of the show's heroes ever permanently stealing someone else's body.
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

  3. #3
    Second Lieutenant Makenshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    From what I understood, Wray only decided to go after the bomb when she knew they were condemned de to radiation levels (geiger counter). That's when she went like: "These pops are dead already, better find that bomb while these bodis still have hair and skin".

    They didn't choose to harm other's bodies; they were put in that situation. Covel, however, deliberatedly tried to steal bodies, like that would work (both ends of stones die). It was the typical "avoid 4 deaths if it can be reduced to two".
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  4. #4
    Lieutenant Colonel MattSilver 3k's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    Well, they were already exposed to a lethal level before there was a chance to save the two bodies they were inhabiting. And protagonist-centric morality or not, I can't see any of the show's heroes ever permanently stealing someone else's body.
    That.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makenshi View Post
    From what I understood, Wray only decided to go after the bomb when she knew they were condemned de to radiation levels (geiger counter). That's when she went like: "These pops are dead already, better find that bomb while these bodis still have hair and skin".

    They didn't choose to harm other's bodies; they were put in that situation. Covel, however, deliberatedly tried to steal bodies, like that would work (both ends of stones die). It was the typical "avoid 4 deaths if it can be reduced to two".
    This.

    D Toccs, you did, you know, watch the episode in full, right? Like, the whole thing?
    ~ When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take back the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that BURNS YOUR HOUSE DOWN! ~

    ~ Burning people! He says what we're all thinking! ~

  5. #5
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Well Greer and Wray did essentially permanently steal Covel and Michael's bodies. Everybody in or around the Pentagon had been exposed to the radiation, the majority of them got out and will presumably get medical treatment. Greer and Wray not only stayed inside, but moved further in to be right beside the bomb thus negating any possible rescue all the while fully aware they were killing the host bodies.

    In earlier episodes the use of other people's bodies has been treated as a moral issue, Eli got angry at Amanda Perry for getting romantic with Rush while in Ginn's body, the moral issue of Young torturing Telford while in Rush's body and the subtle montage of Amanda Perry having fun running around while Wray suffered in the crippled body. Yet in this episode sacrificing someone else's body is good and if the person is angry then they are bad.

  6. #6
    River's Roommate carmencatalina's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    Everybody in or around the Pentagon had been exposed to the radiation, the majority of them got out and will presumably get medical treatment. Greer and Wray not only stayed inside, but moved further in to be right beside the bomb thus negating any possible rescue all the while fully aware they were killing the host bodies.
    Did you not watch the episode?

    They tried to leave, but they find their way is blocked by the rubble. It is only after they find the Geiger counter and Wray (correctly) interprets the readings as saying they have already been exposed to a lethal dose that they know that the bodies they are in will die. Given that they think the bomb is going to kill potentially thousands of people, they decide to try to defuse it, since the people they are inhabiting are already going to die.

    Did you miss the part where they were trying to leave? Where they radio Telford and tell him the way is blocked? Did you miss the giant pile of rubble?

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  7. #7
    John Diggle DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    Well Greer and Wray did essentially permanently steal Covel and Michael's bodies. Everybody in or around the Pentagon had been exposed to the radiation, the majority of them got out and will presumably get medical treatment. Greer and Wray not only stayed inside, but moved further in to be right beside the bomb thus negating any possible rescue all the while fully aware they were killing the host bodies.
    No they didn't.

    They moved in to disarm the bomb--to save millions of other people. They had no idea that they'd lethally poisoned the bodies they were in till it was too late to do anything about it.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by carmencatalina View Post
    Did you not watch the episode?

    They tried to leave, but they find their way is blocked by the rubble. It is only after they find the Geiger counter and Wray (correctly) interprets the readings as saying they have already been exposed to a lethal dose that they know that the bodies they are in will die. Given that they think the bomb is going to kill potentially thousands of people, they decide to try to defuse it, since the people they are inhabiting are already going to die.

    Did you miss the part where they were trying to leave? Where they radio Telford and tell him the way is blocked? Did you miss the giant pile of rubble?
    ^ This excellent post.
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

  8. #8
    The Monitor jelgate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Hinsight is 20/20. They had no idea where the bomb was and did not even though they were exposed until they found the Geigher counter. By then it was too late
    Quote Originally Posted by aretood2 View Post
    Jelgate is right

  9. #9
    Second Lieutenant Makenshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    They didn't stay in by their choice, the were f***ing buried there due to falling debris. Greer didn't hold her to keep her in the building, but to prevent her from disconecting the stones - and even then, not to steal bodies, but to prevent the owners coming back in the middle of chaos. In fact, I believe HE would try to lead Wray out of the building (remember the stone room in inside it, so SHE didn't want to leave the buillding, probably thinking it would be faster to just disconect).

    After they woke up, they looked for a way out, which led to them to the place were they found the geiger conter, where they discovered they were doomed; that's when they decided "these two are dead, maybe even us with them if conection ain't cut - let's stop the bomb, it's the least we can do".

    Telford's torture wasn't exactly torture - it's was the Jaffa Ritual to break brainwash, and this was an exceptional, desperate situation. I'm not saying it was right, but was the only way.

    Wray on Perry's body, she new what was coming (so did Vanessa Janes, but she couldn't handle the pressure as Wray did); who can blame Perry for enjoying a few moments of health after a life of suffering? It's not as if she stole the body, or stalled her work to stay a bit more. When the time came, she gave it back.


    EDIT: ninja'ed by carmencatalina... T__T
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  10. #10
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by carmencatalina View Post
    Did you not watch the episode?

    They tried to leave, but they find their way is blocked by the rubble. It is only after they find the Geiger counter and Wray (correctly) interprets the readings as saying they have already been exposed to a lethal dose that they know that the bodies they are in will die. Given that they think the bomb is going to kill potentially thousands of people, they decide to try to defuse it, since the people they are inhabiting are already going to die.

    Did you miss the part where they were trying to leave? Where they radio Telford and tell him the way is blocked? Did you miss the giant pile of rubble?
    There's no need for attitude, of course I saw the pile of rubble, but they never said that was the only way out they explicitly said that it was the closest way out. Telford told them to look for another way out but after hearing that the bomb squad couldn't get in in time, Wray made the descion to go for the bomb rather then find an alternate way out.

    This is all beside the point anyway, my issue is not with what Wray and Greer did as I said I am fully aware it was a messed up situation. My issue is with the demonizing of Covel who was completely justified in being angry and was also reacting to the messed up situation.

  11. #11
    Second Lieutenant Makenshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    No it wasn't, he knew his body was doomed and tried to steal that which belongs to others. The senator was not as coward and dumb. A person who doesn't know how the stones work could use those excuses you said, but not him: he knew he would die ANYWAY, yet chose to die in Greer's body when could die on his own and let Greer live.

    And even then, it would still be wrong to steal another person's body when he knew they were not responsible for the situation. Understandable, but not justifiable: you don't steal another persons organs to replace your own; why would stealing an entire body be acceptable?
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  12. #12
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Makenshi View Post
    No it wasn't, he knew his body was doomed and tried to steal that which belongs to others. The senator was not as coward and dumb. A person who doesn't know how the stones work could use those excuses you said, but not him: he knew he would die ANYWAY, yet chose to die in Greer's body when could die on his own and let Greer live.

    And even then, it would still be wrong to steal another person's body when he knew they were not responsible for the situation. Understandable, but not justifiable: you don't steal another persons organs to replace your own; why would stealing an entire body be acceptable?
    Covel did know full well how the stones work, and he theorized that Amanda Perry's body only died because it was to weak to sustain the shock. Given that he is a scientist on par with Rush, his theory should not be considered just random speculation.

  13. #13
    Captain morbosfist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    It's not random speculation, but it is the desperate justification of a man who doesn't want to die. He knows better. He just wouldn't accept it.

  14. #14
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    I've long had a problem with the "stones", especially in SGU where they become the means for sex and other relationships. At best it bespeaks of an immorality gap in the writers' consciences, and at worst to an intentionally lazy way of forcing plots and disregarding morality.

  15. #15
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
    It's not random speculation, but it is the desperate justification of a man who doesn't want to die. He knows better. He just wouldn't accept it.
    I wouldn't be to quick to disregard his theory.

    Spoiler:
    We don't fully understand what happens when someone dies using the stones.
    Spoiler:
    Both Ginn and Amanda Perry's minds end up inside Chloe next time she uses the stones.

  16. #16
    Captain morbosfist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    I wouldn't be to quick to disregard his theory.

    Spoiler:
    We don't fully understand what happens when someone dies using the stones.
    Spoiler:
    Both Ginn and Amanda Perry's minds end up inside Chloe next time she uses the stones.
    Spoiler:
    Yeah...
    Spoiler:
    Except they're pretty much ghosts and by all indications will be "dead" by episode's end. Either that or uploaded into Destiny's computer.

    He was just trying to justify body theft on the spot. He knew it was flimsy.

  17. #17
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
    Spoiler:
    Yeah...
    Spoiler:
    Except they're pretty much ghosts and by all indications will be "dead" by episode's end. Either that or uploaded into Destiny's computer.

    He was just trying to justify body theft on the spot. He knew it was flimsy.
    Spoiler:
    No, because they are both still present in Chloe as of the episode after next, Seizure.


    Fact is, we have only seen death using the stones once, and the extremely fragile nature Amanda Perry's body could potentially be a factor in what happened.

  18. #18
    First Lieutenant Wayston's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    Spoiler:
    No, because they are both still present in Chloe as of the episode after next, Seizure.


    Fact is, we have only seen death using the stones once, and the extremely fragile nature Amanda Perry's body could potentially be a factor in what happened.
    But it's not appropriate to test that very biased hypothesis (from the science dude) out in the field like that. He came across as the desparate guy trying to take a final lucky shot.
    I'm an average viewer. As plain as they come. People make TV shows based on my demographic.

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  19. #19
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    Fair points brought up by people. I am certainly not trying to say that Covel was right in what he did, all I am saying is that the entire situation was messed up and I feel that he was demonized a bit too much given what had happened. Certainly Rush has done just as bad and worse when he has been painted into a corner and I believe with all my heart that Rush would have done the exact same thing so especially seeing him taking the moral high ground annoyed me.

    Imagine the situation was this : Scott and Chloe have stoned to Earth and then there is an accident on Destiny. The people in Scott and Chloe's bodies are the able to fix the problem, but doing so would be a death sentence.
    I would expect to see ranting from Young about how you can't make those descions in someone else's body. If Scott and Chloe found out what was happening and got angry, they would not be seen as desperate cowards but as righteously pissed. The two people in the bodies would be the ones demonized because it would be main cast members who were threatened. Covel was demonized and Greer and Wray were heroes because Greer and Wray are main cast and Covel is a one shot character. That is the definition of protagonist centered morality.

  20. #20
    Colonel
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    Default Re: Protagonist Centered Morality

    I'm not sure what difference it makes. They couldn't escape, so it was a case of either staying where they were and being vaporised with thousands of other people, or disarming the bomb and limiting the fatalities to themselves, or should I say the bodies they were in.

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