Protagonist Centered Morality

[D Toccs]

I understand that all TV shows work on the system of protagonist centered morality, but this episode kinda annoyed me at the end.
Wray and Greer both exposed the bodies of Covel and Michaels to lethal amounts of radiation, despite Telford telling them not to and explicitly saying "you're not in your own bodies." Then when Covel is quite justifiably angered by the situation and tries to save himself, everybody including Rush treat him like the jerkass to end all jerkasses. Young even says to him that he has no choice but to go back and that he has no right to help himself to Greer's body, what about Greer having no right to sacrifice Covel's body?
I understand it was a difficult situation, but if it had been reversed and one of the crew was in Covel's shoes, then doing what he did would be seen as the right thing to do and Greer would have been viewed as the jerkass. Also where does Rush get off taking the moral high ground, he would have done exactly the same thing in Covel's place.
End of rant.

[DigiFluid]

Well, they were already exposed to a lethal level before there was a chance to save the two bodies they were inhabiting. And protagonist-centric morality or not, I can't see any of the show's heroes ever permanently stealing someone else's body.

[Makenshi]

From what I understood, Wray only decided to go after the bomb when she knew they were condemned de to radiation levels (geiger counter). That's when she went like: "These pops are dead already, better find that bomb while these bodis still have hair and skin".

They didn't choose to harm other's bodies; they were put in that situation. Covel, however, deliberatedly tried to steal bodies, like that would work (both ends of stones die). It was the typical "avoid 4 deaths if it can be reduced to two".

[MattSilver 3k]

Well, they were already exposed to a lethal level before there was a chance to save the two bodies they were inhabiting. And protagonist-centric morality or not, I can't see any of the show's heroes ever permanently stealing someone else's body.

That.

From what I understood, Wray only decided to go after the bomb when she knew they were condemned de to radiation levels (geiger counter). That's when she went like: "These pops are dead already, better find that bomb while these bodis still have hair and skin".

They didn't choose to harm other's bodies; they were put in that situation. Covel, however, deliberatedly tried to steal bodies, like that would work (both ends of stones die). It was the typical "avoid 4 deaths if it can be reduced to two".

This.

D Toccs, you did, you know, watch the episode in full, right? Like, the whole thing?

[D Toccs]

Well Greer and Wray did essentially permanently steal Covel and Michael's bodies. Everybody in or around the Pentagon had been exposed to the radiation, the majority of them got out and will presumably get medical treatment. Greer and Wray not only stayed inside, but moved further in to be right beside the bomb thus negating any possible rescue all the while fully aware they were killing the host bodies.

In earlier episodes the use of other people's bodies has been treated as a moral issue, Eli got angry at Amanda Perry for getting romantic with Rush while in Ginn's body, the moral issue of Young torturing Telford while in Rush's body and the subtle montage of Amanda Perry having fun running around while Wray suffered in the crippled body. Yet in this episode sacrificing someone else's body is good and if the person is angry then they are bad.

[carmencatalina]

Everybody in or around the Pentagon had been exposed to the radiation, the majority of them got out and will presumably get medical treatment. Greer and Wray not only stayed inside, but moved further in to be right beside the bomb thus negating any possible rescue all the while fully aware they were killing the host bodies.

Did you not watch the episode?

They tried to leave, but they find their way is blocked by the rubble. It is only after they find the Geiger counter and Wray (correctly) interprets the readings as saying they have already been exposed to a lethal dose that they know that the bodies they are in will die. Given that they think the bomb is going to kill potentially thousands of people, they decide to try to defuse it, since the people they are inhabiting are already going to die.

Did you miss the part where they were trying to leave? Where they radio Telford and tell him the way is blocked? Did you miss the giant pile of rubble?

[DigiFluid]

Well Greer and Wray did essentially permanently steal Covel and Michael's bodies. Everybody in or around the Pentagon had been exposed to the radiation, the majority of them got out and will presumably get medical treatment. Greer and Wray not only stayed inside, but moved further in to be right beside the bomb thus negating any possible rescue all the while fully aware they were killing the host bodies.

No they didn't.

They moved in to disarm the bomb--to save millions of other people. They had no idea that they'd lethally poisoned the bodies they were in till it was too late to do anything about it.

Also:

Did you not watch the episode?

They tried to leave, but they find their way is blocked by the rubble. It is only after they find the Geiger counter and Wray (correctly) interprets the readings as saying they have already been exposed to a lethal dose that they know that the bodies they are in will die. Given that they think the bomb is going to kill potentially thousands of people, they decide to try to defuse it, since the people they are inhabiting are already going to die.

Did you miss the part where they were trying to leave? Where they radio Telford and tell him the way is blocked? Did you miss the giant pile of rubble?

^ This excellent post.

[jelgate]

Hinsight is 20/20. They had no idea where the bomb was and did not even though they were exposed until they found the Geigher counter. By then it was too late

[Makenshi]

They didn't stay in by their choice, the were f***ing buried there due to falling debris. Greer didn't hold her to keep her in the building, but to prevent her from disconecting the stones - and even then, not to steal bodies, but to prevent the owners coming back in the middle of chaos. In fact, I believe HE would try to lead Wray out of the building (remember the stone room in inside it, so SHE didn't want to leave the buillding, probably thinking it would be faster to just disconect).

After they woke up, they looked for a way out, which led to them to the place were they found the geiger conter, where they discovered they were doomed; that's when they decided "these two are dead, maybe even us with them if conection ain't cut - let's stop the bomb, it's the least we can do".

Telford's torture wasn't exactly torture - it's was the Jaffa Ritual to break brainwash, and this was an exceptional, desperate situation. I'm not saying it was right, but was the only way.

Wray on Perry's body, she new what was coming (so did Vanessa Janes, but she couldn't handle the pressure as Wray did); who can blame Perry for enjoying a few moments of health after a life of suffering? It's not as if she stole the body, or stalled her work to stay a bit more. When the time came, she gave it back.


EDIT: ninja'ed by carmencatalina... T__T

[D Toccs]

Did you not watch the episode?

They tried to leave, but they find their way is blocked by the rubble. It is only after they find the Geiger counter and Wray (correctly) interprets the readings as saying they have already been exposed to a lethal dose that they know that the bodies they are in will die. Given that they think the bomb is going to kill potentially thousands of people, they decide to try to defuse it, since the people they are inhabiting are already going to die.

Did you miss the part where they were trying to leave? Where they radio Telford and tell him the way is blocked? Did you miss the giant pile of rubble?

There's no need for attitude, of course I saw the pile of rubble, but they never said that was the only way out they explicitly said that it was the closest way out. Telford told them to look for another way out but after hearing that the bomb squad couldn't get in in time, Wray made the descion to go for the bomb rather then find an alternate way out.

This is all beside the point anyway, my issue is not with what Wray and Greer did as I said I am fully aware it was a messed up situation. My issue is with the demonizing of Covel who was completely justified in being angry and was also reacting to the messed up situation.

[Makenshi]

No it wasn't, he knew his body was doomed and tried to steal that which belongs to others. The senator was not as coward and dumb. A person who doesn't know how the stones work could use those excuses you said, but not him: he knew he would die ANYWAY, yet chose to die in Greer's body when could die on his own and let Greer live.

And even then, it would still be wrong to steal another person's body when he knew they were not responsible for the situation. Understandable, but not justifiable: you don't steal another persons organs to replace your own; why would stealing an entire body be acceptable?

[D Toccs]

No it wasn't, he knew his body was doomed and tried to steal that which belongs to others. The senator was not as coward and dumb. A person who doesn't know how the stones work could use those excuses you said, but not him: he knew he would die ANYWAY, yet chose to die in Greer's body when could die on his own and let Greer live.

And even then, it would still be wrong to steal another person's body when he knew they were not responsible for the situation. Understandable, but not justifiable: you don't steal another persons organs to replace your own; why would stealing an entire body be acceptable?

Covel did know full well how the stones work, and he theorized that Amanda Perry's body only died because it was to weak to sustain the shock. Given that he is a scientist on par with Rush, his theory should not be considered just random speculation.

[morbosfist]

It's not random speculation, but it is the desperate justification of a man who doesn't want to die. He knows better. He just wouldn't accept it.

[senilegreen]

I've long had a problem with the "stones", especially in SGU where they become the means for sex and other relationships. At best it bespeaks of an immorality gap in the writers' consciences, and at worst to an intentionally lazy way of forcing plots and disregarding morality.

[D Toccs]

It's not random speculation, but it is the desperate justification of a man who doesn't want to die. He knows better. He just wouldn't accept it.

I wouldn't be to quick to disregard his theory.

Spoiler:

We don't fully understand what happens when someone dies using the stones.

Spoiler:

Both Ginn and Amanda Perry's minds end up inside Chloe next time she uses the stones.