'Alliances' (213) General Discussion

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I think that being able to defend Earth in some way still rings true for much of the military on board, but you're absolutely right about the bean-counters and policy scientists. They are completely useless and in fact, dangerous, for the Destiny crew. But this is where "alliances" also comes in: Those same bean counters have proven that they're certainly not Destiny's allies.

and thank you!

[kudra]

Well, that was a different episode than was provided before, so I see your point (although I don't support Hulu for various reasons and thus don't use it). But ironically, this episode also proves my point:

But anyway,the LA do apparently recognize that attacking and antagonizing Earth is a bad idea. So we're brought back to the same point as earlier: attacking Earth, further antagonizing them, is a stupid idea.

But in real life this happens all the time. People do stupid things, take risks, make bad decisions and actions have unforseen consequences. Bin Laden was backed by Saudis and aided by certain Afghani warlords yet after he attacked the USA the US and UK ended up invading the whole of Afghanistan (and for some reason Iraq which had nothing to do with Al Qaeda).

What about Muammar Gadaffi? He's basically a war lord backed by a particular clan and has spent years ticking off powerful enemies - playing with fire and for years he's got away with it.

Governments often get it wrong too - remember Pearl Harbour - With hindsight it was hugely risky for Japan to attack a major power like the USA with all the manpower and resorces the US would have at their disposal when they retaliated but at the time it must have seemed like a smart move.

Leaders be they politicians or criminals do stuff this supid all the time.

Basically what I'm saying is that when people in TV shows do the smart and rational thing is when you should complain that it's unrealistsic.

[Kaiphantom]

You'd have to understand the concept of why wars happen in the first place: resources. Things on Earth are a bit different in that all land has been claimed, while space is vast enough that there are plenty of resources unclaimed out there. The equivalent would be me giving you an entire planet to yourself, that's peaceful and with plenty of food and water and whatever else you need.

And then you go up and smack the only beehive on the entire planet.

Also, people like Gaddafi were rather smart early on to take and hold power. It's only later in life where dictators get increasingly divorced from reality, and Gaddafi has been in power for 40 years(he's old, too). The LA clans have just formed, so their particular leaders shouldn't be quite so dumb quite yet. Given the choice of what to take over (Earth or another clan), the choice should be obvious: another clan.

I'm not sure you quite understand how much mind-boggling, drool-inducing stupidity is required for these LA leaders to come to this decision, especially because their own members realize it is.

You know, part of the reason the US has been targeted in the past, is because of the perception that the US was a paper tiger; that it wouldn't take much to get them to capitulate. WW2 Japan is not comparable to the LA, because it had an army of equal power, and Pearl Harbor was actually a great move. There were only a couple of things they did wrong, when you study that scenario, that would have dealt a far more crippling blow to the US.

In short, "survival of the fittest" is the phrase of the day here. Those who are stupid should be quickly weeded out. Those who are smart will gain and hold onto power.

[HathorKree!]

I liked this episode. It was kind of nice to get a breather after the pace of the last two episodes. I liked that they went back to character development for a bit. There was too much running around before.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

If any group earthbound or not destroyed the command structure of the worlds only superpower we would think about capitulation IMO.

[morbosfist]

You have to realize how difficult it would be to pull such a thing off. Bombing the Pentagon and probably DC would be very bad, no doubt, but capitulation would not be the first thing on the mind of whoever took over. Violent retaliation would. If the Lucian Alliance actually succeeded, worlds would burn when the military decided to stop pulling punches and start nuking bases.

[garhkal]

This isn't the first time that Earth has tried to interfere in affairs aboard Destiny, but the events of “Alliances” have certainly sharpened those divisions. Not soldiers, not scientists, but worse. Earth has sent the politicians, the accountants and, in the form of Covell, someone whose allegiances can't truly be ascertained.

That is an interesting POV.. We know telford was (when still brainwashed) tring to take over from young at times, as well as potentially would have blown them all up (earth). And now here is this senator who is mentioning that they might not even pony up more resources to finding another icarus base..

The Senator's saving grace is that, by the end of the episode, she may be close to truly seeing the error of her beliefs and while the Senator's possible change in her personal allegiances won't change anything for her personally, acknowledging Chloe's choice is a kindness. There is also the last poignant act where, knowing she is certain to die, she runs the dust through her fingers. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. She has just seen the most incredible thing any human has ever seen and it's over, done, and her life is gone. All of the things that she thought were so important are wiped away – the politics, the bureaucracy, it's all just small potatoes.

She did well to redeam herself by that act. BUT me thinks if they could save her it would do well for making her an ally for the SGU crew.

The other scientists aboard Destiny are shunted aside entirely, not even drawing notice. This crew has been hands on, they have lived and breathed, and survived, aboard Destiny, long after the Earth scientists expected them to perish, and yet the Earth scientists continue to dismiss them. “The best minds on earth” pale in comparison to the least of the scientists aboard Destiny, at least where the Destiny is concerned.

Good point. With all the learning and on hands experience that Brody, Volkar and parks have had, you would have thought that Cavel would have at least given them a nod.. not just dismissed them completely.

Having Varro volunteer information on defusing the bomb puts him solely in Destiny's court, although I sense growing jealousy by Col. Young regarding the friendship (and more?) between TJ and Varro. In the last episode, several Lucian Alliance members chose to stay aboard Destiny, so their alliances are plain to see.

I wonder if/when we might see TJ/Varro asking for young to consent to their seeing one another... And he has fully shown his loyalty to the crew/people of the Destiny/sgc..

How else can the existence of Evans – a man bearing a clan tattoo, acting strangely enough that Wray could pick up that something was wrong with him – continue to operate at the base? Wouldn't Telford be aware of other Lucian Alliance agents, given his long-time undercover work, once he was no longer brainwashed? After all, he mentioned to Young that he had memory of all the things that he had done, so why not of all the people he would have met? He passed files on the Destiny crew to Evans for a reason and I believe that reason is that, brainwash or not, Telford remains an enemy agent.

It does make one wonder, how many other 'agents' they have working in the SGC/home world command, and whether Telford knows any of them. BUT i think he was the ship's pilot, and had gotten into a uniform as it was 'coatched to him' as being his way out.. so he wouldn't die in the boom!

[Pharaoh Atem]

preidible but still good

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I wonder if/when we might see TJ/Varro asking for young to consent to their seeing one another... And he has fully shown his loyalty to the crew/people of the Destiny/sgc..

I think she will ask for Youngs blessing but I don't think she needs permission but with being a prisoner (I think he still is) she may have to.

[Petra]

Okay, I know I’m extremely late but here are my 2 cents about the last episode.

I like it. I wasn’t thrilled on the first viewing but Alliances gain with every re-watch. I’m also in agreement that for once stuff on Earth was more interesting that what was going on on Destiny.

As a Greer fan I was very happy to see him finally get some meaty scenes and further development and background. It’s probably not going to happen this season (or ever) but I’d love to see him use the stones again and visit his mom.

Shallow note: more pronounced stubble and purple cardigan that made Greer look extremely hot, even for his standards, didn’t hurt either.

My only complaint is that it’s the second Greer episode and second time it’s set in debris. Can we have a Ron-centred story that will not involve any kind of rocks/rubble?

I also hope that the grudging friendship between him and Camille will continue to develop. Man, I never would have thought these 2 can be so awesome together. More please!

Speaking of Wray, this ep officially made me a fan of hers. I’m not sure if it’s her stay on Destiny that changed her so much or if she’s always had it in her, but it was nice to see her do something heroic and sacrificing herself for the greater good.

On Destiny, Young was his usual awesome self and Rush continues to become more and more interesting and *gasp* likeable. I can’t help but wonder how long will it last. TJ/Varro scenes were sweet and made even more enjoyable by snarky!Young’s jealousy. However, these were the only bright spots in the B (or was it A?) Destiny-centred plot. I don’t know, there was something lacking there. I didn’t really care for the senator or Covell, tbh. In fact I found the senator mildly annoying although I can’t put my finger on the reason for it.

All in all, IMO Alliances is a good episode in an exceptionally strong season, bogged down slightly by the visitors on Destiny and no mention of Jack O’Neill when it was clearly needed. But these are minor quibbles.

I know SGU stands on its own two feet, but even within the confines of what they've established for this particular show, O'Neill is colossally important on the Earth side of things. It just seemed bizarre that they'd show an attack on the Pentagon and we wouldn't see the guy who's in charge of Homeworld Command.

Exactly. That’s my biggest complaint actually. I don’t think we even had to *see* him but 1-2 lines about where he was and what was he doing would have made huge difference. Given how Jack was established in season 1 as one of the major players (although off screen) on the show and seemed to be in contact with Young and in command of the HWC it just seemed weird to have him ignored completely in such situation. It pulled me right of the ep for a moment.

Off the top of my head...
SG-1:
The First Commandment
Cold Lazarus
Fire and Water
Singularity
Enigma
There But For the Grace of God
Show and Tell

There's more, but I didn't go through every season to check. As I said, these were just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure someone can twist a title to make some kind of sense given the episode, but at best, it would be tenuous.

That’s slightly off-topic, but I couldn’t help but comment seeing this list.

“The First Commandment” id for me one of the best titles in the franchise: it’s all about what the characters consider the most important. The first commandment for the delusional Hansen who called himself a god was “You shall have no other gods before me” while for Jack it was “You shall not kill/murder”; the last scene made it pretty obvious.

Similarly “Cold Lazarus” referred to Charlie who thanks to the crystal beings rose from his grave, so to speak, like Lazarus so that Jack and Sara could say goodbye. “Singularity” (the quality of being strange) referred to the whole situation on Hanka, including astronomical phenomena and "Enigma" referred to the Tollans (mysterious and impossible to understand completely).

Finally, isn’t “There But For the Grace of God” expression used when something bad that has happen to someone else could happen to you? Given that the ep is from Daniel’s POV, how is it not appropriate?

Egle already explained SGU titles. They really make sense, you know Well, apart from Space

They way characters discussed whether some higher power left the planet to their path isn't about faith for you? It's a perfect example for me. Anyhoo, unless you've got a massive list and those examples were just a few from that list, then it's hardly *most* of SGU episode titles.

Stranded people are never left behind, still HC is considering it. O'Neill is running HC, doesnt make sense at all.

Doesn’t it? SG-1 talked a lot about not leaving anyone behind and they always strove not to do that, but at the end of the day they did leave behind a lot of people. So it’s not that strange, actually.

Although LA grabbed lots of tech and stuff, going directly after Earth, the civilization that befriend the most advanced races and defeated the most evil ones... they must have a suicidal wish of some kind.

Or they know something we don’t. Or they simply decided to use guerilla/terrorist tactics against which super advanced tech is useless.

And for the last time, Destiny IS NOT 1 MILLION YEARS OLD. The fact that they are still holding to their initial error just proves how pig headed they are. How can Destiny be 1mil if Atlantis is at least 5mil and light years ahead in tech.

It seems to me that you weren’t paying much attention. Covel stated quite clearly that Destiny predates everything Ancient in both Milky Way and Pegasus.

While I understand where you are coming from I respectfully disagree with your reasoning. First it wasn't just Homeworld Command considering leaving the crew behind it was the US Senate, and since they control the USAF's budget they would ultimately have the final say. Second, the LA has been angry at Earth since they first appeared on SG-1. They want to establish their own little empires and are willing to use force to do so and probably don't feel they owe anybody anything for the fall of the Goa'uld. Finally Dr. Covel did say that Destiny predated all known Ancient technologies.

What he said. *nods*

I mean come on the Replicator fleet (who were basicly Ancients) were no match to 304s.

Huh?

A simple example:
The Ori ships were no match for the 304s.
The Goa'uld ships were no match for the Ori ships.
Simple logics say that the Goa'uld ships are not even a mile close to no match for the 304s.

Your simple logic ignores equally simple fact that the capabilities of the Earth/Ori/Goa’uld/Asgard/*insert alien race here* ships were different in pretty much every episode, depending on what the writers needed them to be to tell particular story.

If SGU was a show that wasn't related to SG franchise i am sure that it would have gotten a 3rd season,because it's ok.Everyone who is complaining(yes me too) are complaining because of the radical change of style.But comparing with the sci-fi and the action of SG1 and SGA, SGU is weak.And mind you the sci-fi and action was what led SG1 to 10 seasons and SGA to 5.Both SG1 and SGA had their share of drama,but they never forgot that it's a sci-fi show.Look at what happened in the first season: "they got on the ship.they whined a lot.they got water, air and food.whined some more.found out that the ship charges from the sun.whined.found blue alines.whined about the blue aliens." and that's it.

Sigh. You know , I read a short story today from “The Solaris Book of New Science Fiction”. The story is set in our time and is about the end of the universe. For about 80% of said story mother and daughter talk about gardening. By your reasoning the story is not in fact sci-fi, because it lacks action/adventure

Also, for the 100th time, the fact that the change in tone was radical for you doesn’t mean that it was for other people too. For me, for example, it wasn’t. Much overused by me “going back to roots” phrase springs to mind instead...

And I will refrain from saying something snarky about drama on SGA. I will. *wills herself to drop it*

Also as a show from the same universe as two other shows who had comedy as one of their strong points, sgu is really behing.When the most funny moments are cameos of oneill... you should start asking yourself questions.

Yes, you should. Starting with why you are unable to see humour besides Jack’s cameos.

How else can the existence of Evans – a man bearing a clan tattoo, acting strangely enough that Wray could pick up that something was wrong with him – continue to operate at the base? Wouldn't Telford be aware of other Lucian Alliance agents, given his long-time undercover work, once he was no longer brainwashed? After all, he mentioned to Young that he had memory of all the things that he had done, so why not of all the people he would have met? He passed files on the Destiny crew to Evans for a reason and I believe that reason is that, brainwash or not, Telford remains an enemy agent.

evilgrin, wonderful review as always. *hugs and lots of mental green*

However, the fragment above has me a bit confused. I don't think Evans was a mole on the base; I thought he was simply the cargo ship's pilot who didn't manage to get away in time. He certainly didn't act like someone who knew the place he found himself in..

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Thanks for the mental green, Petra
I don't think Evans expected to crash, but I still think he's a mole and was worried that he couldn't get away in time, because he knew what he was carrying

[Matt G]

1. Have to admit, I'm surprised Jack didn't show up.

2. Sorry PTB but I saw the Lucien Alliance agent coming from ten miles off!

3. Senator Michaels...doesn't have a clue what Chloe has been through 'or' what she found out about her supposed 'friends' on Earth.

4. Interesting to see French Stewart in something again though he looks a fair bit older than when I last saw him.

5. Covell could have been and I kind of see his point, it wasn't his fault that his body got irradiated!

Certainly an interesting ep.

[caribsci]

Ok so here is my question.........Why wasn't the Lucian Alliance ship detected by Atlantis? They got long range sensors and yet a ship still managed to get thru?I know the ship was cloaked but it couldn't enter earth's atmosphere without de-cloaking?or am i missing something.

[KEK]

The commentary for this is hilarious, especially when they're diffusing the bomb. Jamil and Ming find it oddly sexual

[maneth]

Good ep, but the Lucian Alliance airman was no huge surprise.

Goodness, if there's one thing I detest, it's parents who have "great plans" for their children. I really despise people who seem to feel they've failed in their own lives and take it out on their kids through misplaced ambition. Thank goodness Chloe managed to tell Senator Michaels that she felt she belonged on Destiny.