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  1. #41
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    basically you think us conservatives are against any type of government regulation whatsoever which is false....us conservatives are not into anarchy...we recognize that we need a certain amount of government in order to fairly and justly keep the peace....and to that end fair and just labor laws that prevent employee abuse would constitute a measure of fair and just government regulation I'm comfortable with......our society is unique.......quite possibly the only one left that holds businessmen, consumers, and employees all to the same set of fair and just laws that are there to provide for the natural dignity of human persons

  2. #42
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    so yes I'm all for labor laws as long as they don't reach beyond the scope of their intent, which is to prevent employee abuse and to prevent minors from being exploited as a cheap labor source

  3. #43
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    that should be the only extent to which government is involved in business....government should not tell ANY people how much money they are allowed to make.....this goes for both employers and employees....and they should not be telling employer how much to pay employees.....how much money an employer pays an employee should be the result of a fair negotiation between employer and employee........with the requisite documentation showing that the wages were a result of mutual agreement

  4. #44
    Lieutenant Colonel xxxevilgrinxxx's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickington View Post
    "People like you?" ...
    This is a common enough practice in any sort of debate, but one I've seen used more frequently in political debates. I've taken it to mean "people that don't agree with my position" and it seems to get levelled wholesale at everyone the particular debater sees as being, rightly or wrongly, on "the other side". It's seldom anywhere near being accurate, if that helps

    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    ...

    The very reason why Marxist ideas spread like wildfire in the late 19th century and why the superpowers of that day were nearly swept away by worker revolts was because the lassez-faire attitude was approaching the point of disaster. Marx was as mad as a hatter when it came to predicting the future, but he did a decent job describing the state of things during his own time.
    There's a lot of truth in that. If everything was just going along swimmingly, there wouldn't have been the environment where Marxism (or whatever ism we're talking about in whatever era, running the gamut of the spectrum) would take hold. I'm sure a small section of the population was doing just fine



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  5. #45
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    and therefore, logically, regulation would make matters WORSE......because government involvement in the private sector only serves to eventually increase the cost of goods and services.....this is because the government does not produce nor innovate, it only regulates....and it costs the government money to enforce such regulations.....so companies by necessity would eventually have to start increasing the cost of their goods and services to pay for this government oversight....frankly a system where were free to conduct business knowing that both parties, company and consumer, are held accountable to the same set of fair and just judicial laws is all the regulation we need
    So, should the British Factory Acts I wrote about earlier have been repealed?

    but in the end people like you are just content to repeat history.....cuz if you actually learned from it you would understand that socialism has no place in any society...every country that has tried it grinds to a halt and collapses on itself
    "You people"? What the heck do you know about me that allows you to make wild assumptions and lump me together with God knows whom?

    I was born in the former USSR. You think I don't know the flaws of the Socialist system? I could tell you any number of horror stories about it that would blow your mind. Some of the stuff my parents tell me is hard even for me to believe.

    But you know what? I still call horse manure at your fetishization of free market. When I talk to my American friends, the stuff they tell me horrifies me no less than what I witnessed in Russia. One of my friends is currently ill, has been for a week, and she still won't go to the doctor because it's too expensive. She isn't an illegal immigrant, she isn't on welfare, either; she is a university-educated, fully employed citizen of the world's only superpower with lower middle class income level. That, my friend, is bloody insane. You can extoll the virtues of market freedom for hours and it will still be insane.

    I live in Israel, mad-gater. We have socialized healthcare. Smarter organized than in Britain, but socialized nevertheless. Our life expectancy is three years longer than yours, our infant mortality is lower than yours, and we spend several times less on healthcare than you do. That makes your private healthcare woefully inefficient in market terms. Even the biggest fans of free market here- and I am quite a fan of economic freedom within reasonable limits- don't believe that healthcare should be a commodity one buys at market price. It just doesn't make economic sense.

    We weathered the recession much better than the US did, too. You know why? Because we had strict banking regulation. Our government is headed by a US-educated Prime Minister who is a committed advocate of privatization- but he is also a committed enemy of over-concentrated wealth because he knows that it suffocates competition. Most of the losses Israel took was because of the decline of the US economy, since you happen to be our most important trading partner and your banks were having fun with their freedom.
    If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.- Abba Eban.

  6. #46
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    So, should the British Factory Acts I wrote about earlier have been repealed?


    "You people"? What the heck do you know about me that allows you to make wild assumptions and lump me together with God knows whom?

    I was born in the former USSR. You think I don't know the flaws of the Socialist system? I could tell you any number of horror stories about it that would blow your mind. Some of the stuff my parents tell me is hard even for me to believe.

    But you know what? I still call horse manure at your fetishization of free market. When I talk to my American friends, the stuff they tell me horrifies me no less than what I witnessed in Russia. One of my friends is currently ill, has been for a week, and she still won't go to the doctor because it's too expensive. She isn't an illegal immigrant, she isn't on welfare, either; she is a university-educated, fully employed citizen of the world's only superpower with lower middle class income level. That, my friend, is bloody insane. You can extoll the virtues of market freedom for hours and it will still be insane.

    I live in Israel, mad-gater. We have socialized healthcare. Smarter organized than in Britain, but socialized nevertheless. Our life expectancy is three years longer than yours, our infant mortality is lower than yours, and we spend several times less on healthcare than you do. That makes your private healthcare woefully inefficient in market terms. Even the biggest fans of free market here- and I am quite a fan of economic freedom within reasonable limits- don't believe that healthcare should be a commodity one buys at market price. It just doesn't make economic sense.

    We weathered the recession much better than the US did, too. You know why? Because we had strict banking regulation. Our government is headed by a US-educated Prime Minister who is a committed advocate of privatization- but he is also a committed enemy of over-concentrated wealth because he knows that it suffocates competition. Most of the losses Israel took was because of the decline of the US economy, since you happen to be our most important trading partner and your banks were having fun with their freedom.
    You know your post presupposes that we have had a completly 'free' health care system and a completly 'free' banking system. We have not had a completley free...well anything...and nor should we...I am not a big fan of anarchy. But the mere fact of the matter is that over the years we have had ever decreasing amounts of freedom in both our health care system and in our banking system.

    You like to say that someone should not have to pay 'market prices' for their health care well let me tell you a story. A story that I love to tell you over and over again but I have forgotten most of it so bare with me. Some Doctor, in NY, decided that, well you know I am going to charge all my patients who come to see me one low monthly fee, I do not need that much money, I do not need to over charge my people, and I will probably get more patients and customers thanks to volume. Well guess what? The Government, for whatever reason, did not like it that much. they said, you can't do that, you are an insurance company now, so you have to charge your people certain amount of dollars for their monthly fee. Which the new fee was significantly greater then the old fee.

    And in banking, in the seventies and the nineties two laws came out. Basically allowing to, and forcing the banks, to do buisness with certain people who could not back up their loans because they were minorities. This was in an effort an effort to give homes away to people and groups who do not have them. And then some of the banks probably in their greed figured, hey we can make a lot of money off of this! And so they did.

    And then when they were beginning to fail they went crying to the Government, many of them, and said, give us money so we can survive! Oh they are too big to fail we need them for our economy, I do not want to but we have to give the banks the money. But lets have new rules. Rules that I have heard achieve many of the same problems as the old set of rules regarding minorities But this is not Capitalism, this is not the free market, at the very least this is Corpratism, which is just as bad as Soclialism...where they are close cousins. Worse because it seems that Corpratism is actually damn efficient.

    When regulations and growing the government slightly to deal with a certain problem and protect people is not Socialism. Socialism and Corpratism are much deeper and wider and more menacing then simple regulations, when infact the lack of regulations can be used to Socialistic objectives. The ends justify the means?

    And there are several reasons that Israel has a longer life span then us.

  7. #47
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    So, should the British Factory Acts I wrote about earlier have been repealed?


    "You people"? What the heck do you know about me that allows you to make wild assumptions and lump me together with God knows whom?

    I was born in the former USSR. You think I don't know the flaws of the Socialist system? I could tell you any number of horror stories about it that would blow your mind. Some of the stuff my parents tell me is hard even for me to believe.

    But you know what? I still call horse manure at your fetishization of free market. When I talk to my American friends, the stuff they tell me horrifies me no less than what I witnessed in Russia. One of my friends is currently ill, has been for a week, and she still won't go to the doctor because it's too expensive. She isn't an illegal immigrant, she isn't on welfare, either; she is a university-educated, fully employed citizen of the world's only superpower with lower middle class income level. That, my friend, is bloody insane. You can extoll the virtues of market freedom for hours and it will still be insane.

    I live in Israel, mad-gater. We have socialized healthcare. Smarter organized than in Britain, but socialized nevertheless. Our life expectancy is three years longer than yours, our infant mortality is lower than yours, and we spend several times less on healthcare than you do. That makes your private healthcare woefully inefficient in market terms. Even the biggest fans of free market here- and I am quite a fan of economic freedom within reasonable limits- don't believe that healthcare should be a commodity one buys at market price. It just doesn't make economic sense.

    We weathered the recession much better than the US did, too. You know why? Because we had strict banking regulation. Our government is headed by a US-educated Prime Minister who is a committed advocate of privatization- but he is also a committed enemy of over-concentrated wealth because he knows that it suffocates competition. Most of the losses Israel took was because of the decline of the US economy, since you happen to be our most important trading partner and your banks were having fun with their freedom.
    which is why socialism should not be allowed any quarter AT ALL in our society.....people work best and help the needy best when THEY are in control of their finances, not government

  8. #48
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    and health care is only expensive in the first place because of asinine government regulations....regulations that prevent more common sense free-market measures form being given a chance....like allowing people to compete across state lines for health insurance....like aloowing private charities the chance to take care of the needy....and the more you extol the "virtues" of bigger and bigger government control over our private lives the more stupid you sound.....you say you are no fan of socialism.....yet you have no problem with government welfare....what the heck do you think socialism IS?

    socialism IS allowing the government to confiscate YOUR hard-earned money without so much as a by-your-leave to do God knows what with it...my money is MINE.....I should be given the say as to how it is used to help the needy.....end of discussion

  9. #49
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    when a nation begins to turn to government to solve their problems...socialism has already gained a foothold in that society

  10. #50
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    and I never said....nor have I ever advocated a complete laissez-faire attitude.....our free-market system is unique....it contains just enough regulation to make people answerable to abuses like the kind that occurred during the industrial revolution and yet is free enough to allow people to set their own rules regarding business conduct

  11. #51
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    and if people need a little help....that's why we have non-profits......instead of turning to government.....why don't you try pointing your friend in the direction of Catholic Charities....they WILL help.....contrary to popular belief they are well prepared....and if Catholic Charities can't offer health care itself I'm sure they know of another non-profit who can

  12. #52
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    yeah....well maybe it would help if certain people weren't so thick-headed......because the socialist nations they claim to despise got their start when they instituted things like government welfare.....quite frankly I'd rather have my doctor dictating the terms of my health rather than the government

  13. #53
    Lieutenant Colonel lordofseas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    yeah....well maybe it would help if certain people weren't so thick-headed......because the socialist nations they claim to despise got their start when they instituted things like government welfare.....quite frankly I'd rather have my doctor dictating the terms of my health rather than the government
    Because Ad Hominem Abuse always helps your cause.
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  14. #54
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    I'm just not afraid to call a spade a spade.......I've repeatedly stated only facts that support the fact that I support a free-market system that actually takes the best of both worlds....meaning one that is just regulated enough to make people answerable for abuses such as fraud and yet one still free enough to allow us to spend our hard-earned money....and I' the one being abused by ad hominem attacks for that belief....with the same tired old arguments that, despite trying to change the wording, are constant in their meaning.....and these ad hominem attacks against the free market system I've been advocating boil down to a few basic concepts:

    that wealth is evil, people are incapable for doing good on their own power, therefore we need government to do good for them....I've seen many different words to describe their viewpoint but it all boils down to the same things

  15. #55
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    and it takes a certain amount of thick-headedness to reject such common sense concepts as being free to spend your own hard-earned money on your own terms, not government's

  16. #56
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    and like Foley described, it's government that's making our health care pricier than it needs to be....by keeping the special interest group known as insurance companies in power over us.....because I know the story of which Foley speaks....one doctor tried to cut out the middleman and offer a low monthly rate to his patients for unlimited care.....and the government said "no way" because right now they have a vested interest in keeping this middleman in play

  17. #57
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    when a nation begins to turn to government to solve their problems...socialism has already gained a foothold in that society
    I'm cool with that.
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  18. #58
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    then move to a socialist country.....and that's all I have to say on that

  19. #59
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    I'm cool with that.
    Me to, i dont see what the big deal is.


  20. #60
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    oh yeah...having the government control every facet of your personal life.....oh yeah it's the cat's meow......boy I'd love nothin' more than to have the government take control of all my money and spend it in ways I have no control over at all....how could anyone resist such a tempting offer?

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