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  1. #81
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoz View Post
    lol, the thick headedness goes both ways.

    Don't understand why you're so adamant with a free-market system. You seem to value freedom in your choices. Hope you realize there is greater freedom to be had if you allow the government to control some aspects of your finances.

    And no, I'm not supporting pure socialism. There always has to be a balance. A complete free-market economy is inefficient and will limit your freedom of choice. A free-market system is self-defeating really because it gives rise to big businesses who maintain their businesses by squelching the rise and growth of small business, the people business.

    With socialism, they control all aspects of business. Which would diminish the effects of big business. The best thing is to have a balance of the two. I think the Scandinavian countries are the best demonstration of that. Government is in control of some various aspects of life including the major businesses, but they allow prosperity and opportunity for small business and individual market growth. I'm not too sure but I think they control healthcare and education. People don't think in macroeconomic aspect, they always think in microeconomics aspects. Allowing some macroeconomic dominance is more beneficial for everyone and leads to a wider variety of microeconomic prospects.

    And you keep saying that people that people will help each other out through charities, I'm presuming? That people should be in charge of that and not governments? You yourself just proved that is an inefficient method. People are inherently selfish and will indulge themselves. They have no interest in others unless it benefits them. That's why we have governments in the first place. To govern those interests but combine the efforts and earn greater benefits (quality of life) through some relinquishment of some freedom for greater amount of freedom.
    because MY money is not the government's to do with as it pleases.....nothing good comes of allowing the government to control any facet of your personal life.....once you allow that, it's only a matter of time before government has 100% total control over your life....the sooner you get that, the better off you'll be.......and you cannot get more freedom by relinquishing freedom.....that has to be the dumbest suggestion yet.....and I assert that many people would still help charities because thankfully the people who spend their money unwisely tend to be in the minority.....the majority of the American people are extremely generous with what fruits of their labor they can spare

    allowing government control over your private lives such as how you manage your money and how you use resources is an all or nothing thing....if you allow no government control over your lives besides what is necessary to keep the peace, maintain the infrastructure necessary to conduct lawful commerce, and defend the nation, then liberty remains intact.....but as soon as you allow government control over your private affairs, liberty dies and will be replaced by socialism....because each facet that you allow the government to control will be used by government as a precedent to control the next facet, and from there the next facet, and so on until before you know it...the government has absolute control over how you live your life

  2. #82
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    and things like food and health and dental care, clothing and housing are basic needs yes....but unalienable rights they are not......is it so much to ask that needy people access basic necessities without having to become wards of "ze Great and Glorious State?"

  3. #83
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    and things like food and health and dental care, clothing and housing are basic needs yes....but unalienable rights they are not......is it so much to ask that needy people access basic necessities without having to become wards of "ze Great and Glorious State?"
    If they are basic necessities, they must be provided for everybody. It's the definition of "basic necessities".

    What you don't understand (okay, the list of things you don't understand could fill a dozen books, but what you don't understand in this particular case) is that EVERY system has its limits, and there is no one system that would solve all problems. That's why the optimal systems are always hybrids that sacrifice raw efficiency for stability. It's game theory 101- if you mindlessly pursue a single strategy, no matter how effective, at some point it will stop being a winning strategy. You need to adapt and change. You need to compromise. Single-minded pursuit of one idealized objective gets you nowhere.

    Free market is not perfect. You actually said that it's not perfect but you didn't mean it, because to say it and mean it invites the inevitable conclusion that the holes that free market leaves need to be plugged by non-market mechanisms. The reason capitalism survived the near-collapse at the turn of the 20th century is because the governments had enough brains to hybridize the system and integrate some elements of what the socialists were proposing into the market economies- but without buying the whole package. Workers' rights, minimum wage, restrictions on child labor, workplace safety regulations- all of that was originally decried as socialist stuff and government oppression of the industry owners, but it turned out to be the cure that saved market freedom.
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  4. #84
    Colonel s09119's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    then you need to read the Constitution again.....government's only role is to govern.....everything else regarding commerce is left to "we the people" to decide.....is it so much to ask that I help the needy on MY terms rather than a stuffed shirt bureaucrat's terms?
    The Constitution was intended to change and be reinterpreted by each successive generation. It was never intended to be stuck to exactly as the Founders thought of it and with that exact wording.
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  5. #85
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    If they are basic necessities, they must be provided for everybody. It's the definition of "basic necessities".

    What you don't understand (okay, the list of things you don't understand could fill a dozen books, but what you don't understand in this particular case) is that EVERY system has its limits, and there is no one system that would solve all problems. That's why the optimal systems are always hybrids that sacrifice raw efficiency for stability. It's game theory 101- if you mindlessly pursue a single strategy, no matter how effective, at some point it will stop being a winning strategy. You need to adapt and change. You need to compromise. Single-minded pursuit of one idealized objective gets you nowhere.

    Free market is not perfect. You actually said that it's not perfect but you didn't mean it, because to say it and mean it invites the inevitable conclusion that the holes that free market leaves need to be plugged by non-market mechanisms. The reason capitalism survived the near-collapse at the turn of the 20th century is because the governments had enough brains to hybridize the system and integrate some elements of what the socialists were proposing into the market economies- but without buying the whole package. Workers' rights, minimum wage, restrictions on child labor, workplace safety regulations- all of that was originally decried as socialist stuff and government oppression of the industry owners, but it turned out to be the cure that saved market freedom.
    our free-market system was already set up in such a hybrid way as you describe....it has all the regulation it needs....it leaves us the freedom to conduct business as we see fit but with enough regulation that says we can't commit crimes....crimes like fraud....and the Constitution is no living, breathing entity whose mind you can change at will.....it was a document specifically crafted to form a Republic with just enough government to keep the peace but with enough freedom for the citizenry to conduct their private lives as they see fit...one of these laws is that stealing is a crime.....and in government welfare as it stands now.....what is being done is that the government is taking what does not belong to them and giving it away without our express consent as owners of the wealth we produced

    The constitution is a document that was crafted specifically to limit the government of this nation to a small amount of enumerated powers designed to keep the peace and defend our nation....to be amended as necessary if certain members of the citizenry were denying certain liberties to their fellow man because of something they have no control over, like skin color....but the mind of the Constitution and of the Founding Fathers regarding liberty cannot be changed....liberty is what it is and to try to argue that the Constitution should be changed from the contract between the citizenry and a government of a libertarian society that it is to one that basically says "anything goes" is an affront to their memory.....one of the enumerated powers in the Constitution again is NOT "government can steal the fruits of others' labor and give it to people who don't"

  6. #86
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    also just because things are describes as basic necessities doesn't mean that they must be provided by government...it just means that an environment has to be present where everybody has equal opportunity to procure these things for themselves under their own power through honest commerce

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilSpaceAlien View Post
    I'm sorry, but some of what you're saying here is just plain wrong. I live in Sweden, and all our big companies aren't controlled by the government at all. I would not call private companies like Volvo, Electrolux, ASSA ABLOY, Securitas, H&M or Ericsson small. Hell, the government only has full ownership of one company that could be regarded as "big".
    We do have a universal healthcare system controlled by the government, but there are private alternatives available as well, and it's the same with the education system, where we even have vouchers for private schools, something I've heard that the american system lacks. People have all the freedom to choose where they get their education or healthcare from, but they don't risk losing something as essential as healthcare, which is a good thing. And just for the record, there are NO GOVERNMENT DEATH PANELS.
    Fascinating. Very fascinating.
    First of all Death Panels and the Complete Lives System is only one problem I have with universal healthcare, a pretty significant one but one none the same.
    As for school vouchers...mixed feelings about them. But on the one hand they do seem to violate the first principle of freedom where as you steal from someone to give to someone else. Who decides?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    I just think health care is a right and should be paid through general taxation. I will repost something I posted on another thread.
    Believe me if you truly believed that Health Care was a right then the last thing you would want is for the Government to mandate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    Of course it is but it's just so easy to terrify people with the scary words, isn't it?

    It amazes me. There is this kneejerk reaction when (I'm being very simplistic here) "government controls big companies" (socialism) but when "big companies control government" (corporatism or fascism), I scarcely hear a peep from a good section of Americans.
    In Canada, we get the same scaremongering about healthcare as well. Yes, we have universal healthcare. It is not "free". There are also private options as well. I for instance pay into the larger healthcare pool via premiums - how is this any different than paying for healthcare insurance? I also have extended benefits through a private insurer for , well, extended benefits We don't have death panels here either, despite a whole lot of blather that got spit out during a US election.
    I think socialism is getting used as a terrifying word by a segment of the US political sector, not because of any real threat from socialism but because if not for these terrifying scenarios that get painted, a good deal of the American public may well CHOOSE that system, which would take money out of the hands of insurance companies who - you've got to admit, are making a hell of a lot of money on people's misfortune.


    I agree completely. I think a good deal of us have heard of instances where there is a literal choice being made between health and paying the rent or food bills, where people have been wiped out financially due to an illness. Destitution shouldn't be the price paid for health.

    The Canadian choice is right for me. I won't say the American choice is wrong for Americans, but I will say that the debate would be better served without the language of terrorising terms getting batted about whenever socialized medicine, something a good deal of the world manages for its citizens, gets mentioned.
    Well yes I think Government systems that kill people and that take away your freedom and liberties for the light and transient cause of me is very scary. But it is only with knowledge that we can know what we are facing and not be scared, silly silly me.

    And you are right you do not hear much fear out of that because such a thing is impossible. Because even if the corporations somehow magically 'took control of the Government' guess what? They become the Government. The main difference between Corpratism and Socialism does not seem to be who owns what it seems to be what you use the power of Government for. do you use the power of the Government for the 'poor and the down trodden' or do you use it for the buisness and the corporations.

    Maybe you did not get death panels in Canada they have been talked about here in this country, as well as the Complete Lives system. You will forgive me if I do not completly trust the politicians.

    As for the notion of Socialism and stuff, well it is the Socialists, the Big Government types, and our politicians who are giving money to the banks, to the insurance companies and generally misusing taxpayer money for their....Big Government schemes. Whatever they are in the end.



    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    If they are basic necessities, they must be provided for everybody. It's the definition of "basic necessities".



    What you don't understand (okay, the list of things you don't understand could fill a dozen books, but what you don't understand in this particular case) is that EVERY system has its limits, and there is no one system that would solve all problems. That's why the optimal systems are always hybrids that sacrifice raw efficiency for stability. It's game theory 101- if you mindlessly pursue a single strategy, no matter how effective, at some point it will stop being a winning strategy. You need to adapt and change. You need to compromise. Single-minded pursuit of one idealized objective gets you nowhere.

    Free market is not perfect. You actually said that it's not perfect but you didn't mean it, because to say it and mean it invites the inevitable conclusion that the holes that free market leaves need to be plugged by non-market mechanisms. The reason capitalism survived the near-collapse at the turn of the 20th century is because the governments had enough brains to hybridize the system and integrate some elements of what the socialists were proposing into the market economies- but without buying the whole package. Workers' rights, minimum wage, restrictions on child labor, workplace safety regulations- all of that was originally decried as socialist stuff and government oppression of the industry owners, but it turned out to be the cure that saved market freedom.
    But my basic neccessities are different then yours. Either my needs are different then yours and my wants are also different then yours. And I am an indvidual and one size fits all grand Government solution is not going to work with me and is not going to be parceled out. Sure I might make mistakes, but at least they will be mine to make.

    Which is what you get in a Socialist system. You get one size fits all Government.

    And no one system is ever perfect. And this includes the 'hybrid' between Socialism and capitalism as you are purporting it. And many of the things that you mention are not socialism at all, and are pursuant to Government's overall objective of protecting your life, your liberty, your property, and your pursuit of happiness.
    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    The Constitution was intended to change and be reinterpreted by each successive generation. It was never intended to be stuck to exactly as the Founders thought of it and with that exact wording.
    So by that logic no can be reinterpreted to be yes, no?

  8. #88
    Lieutenant Colonel EvilSpaceAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Col.Foley View Post
    Fascinating. Very fascinating.
    First of all Death Panels and the Complete Lives System is only one problem I have with universal healthcare, a pretty significant one but one none the same.
    As for school vouchers...mixed feelings about them. But on the one hand they do seem to violate the first principle of freedom where as you steal from someone to give to someone else. Who decides?
    Yeah, there are no death panels at all in universal healthcare. That is a complete myth and fabrication that's used as a scare tactic by those who oppose it. And the fact is that you already have death panels run by private insurance companies that try their hardest to find every little loophole they can use to deny a potential life saving treatment for a patient.
    Over here the government doesn't even directly employ the doctors, they are still employed by the individual hospitals, the county just provides funding for the hospitals and they are not directly involved in the day to day running of the hospitals. The only thing the county directly controls is which doctor is employed as the head of all the public hospitals in the county, but even then it needs to achieve a majority in a vote in the county council with all political parties present before he/she can be employed/fired.

    I think school vouchers are a good thing because if a parent wants to enroll their child in a private school they shouldn't have to pay taxes for a public school system that they don't even use. It's important to give the parents the freedom to choose how and where they want to educate their child.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilSpaceAlien View Post
    Yeah, there are no death panels at all in universal healthcare. That is a complete myth and fabrication that's used as a scare tactic by those who oppose it. And the fact is that you already have death panels run by private insurance companies that try their hardest to find every little loophole they can use to deny a potential life saving treatment for a patient.
    Over here the government doesn't even directly employ the doctors, they are still employed by the individual hospitals, the county just provides funding for the hospitals and they are not directly involved in the day to day running of the hospitals. The only thing the county directly controls is which doctor is employed as the head of all the public hospitals in the county, but even then it needs to achieve a majority in a vote in the county council with all political parties present before he/she can be employed/fired.

    I think school vouchers are a good thing because if a parent wants to enroll their child in a private school they shouldn't have to pay taxes for a public school system that they don't even use. It's important to give the parents the freedom to choose how and where they want to educate their child.

    that's a kind way to put it but what amazes me is how many buy into it in spite of all the facts to the contrary



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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilSpaceAlien View Post
    I think school vouchers are a good thing because if a parent wants to enroll their child in a private school they shouldn't have to pay taxes for a public school system that they don't even use. It's important to give the parents the freedom to choose how and where they want to educate their child.
    I disagree. If a taxpayer service is offered that you can, at any time of eligibility, join, you should have to pay taxes on it. I'm a college student, my tax dollars pay for a great many things that don't impact me at all right now, but I'm happy to pay for them all the same. There's someone out there that is getting a better quality of life because of that, and one day I may benefit the same on someone else's payment. I'm all for letting people go to private school, and perhaps a small tax break is in order for those, but not a skipping of school-related taxes entirely. Especially not when schools generally host events that the entire community, public- and private-school families included, take advantage of.
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  11. #91
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    well that's us crazy Americans fer ya....we believe in this silly thing called personal choice and accountability....things like what food we buy, what health care we get, how we help the needy should remain a personal choice....I help the needy whenever I can not only because my faith directs me to but because I know it's the right thing to do and I do what I can to encourage others to do likewise but in the end it's their personal choice how to spend their money.....and I have a big problem with receiving help from people who were given no choice in the matter of helping me

  12. #92
    Lieutenant Colonel EvilSpaceAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    I disagree. If a taxpayer service is offered that you can, at any time of eligibility, join, you should have to pay taxes on it. I'm a college student, my tax dollars pay for a great many things that don't impact me at all right now, but I'm happy to pay for them all the same. There's someone out there that is getting a better quality of life because of that, and one day I may benefit the same on someone else's payment. I'm all for letting people go to private school, and perhaps a small tax break is in order for those, but not a skipping of school-related taxes entirely. Especially not when schools generally host events that the entire community, public- and private-school families included, take advantage of.
    Yeah, but the moment they stop going to private schools and use the public school system they start paying the same taxes as everyone else. I don't remember really since it's been a long time since I read about the school voucher system we have here in Sweden, but I think that people who use private schools still pay taxes for schools, only less than what those who use public schools do, though I'm not sure about the exact amount.

  13. #93
    Captain Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble's Avatar
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    You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

    To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

    The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

    To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

    The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.
    The NHS also drives down the cost of private healthcare because they have to compete with it. So it's win-win, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

    To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

    The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.
    Quote Originally Posted by shipper hannah View Post
    The NHS also drives down the cost of private healthcare because they have to compete with it. So it's win-win, really.
    exactly, to both

    while I'd love to help people, I can't afford several thousand dollars to cover a surgery for someone. I can, however, afford (for me, it's about 170 a month) to pay for premiums that act as a pool where LOTS of people can be covered, including me. A good number of countries in the world do this - at far less cost that the US model for healthcare. And yes, it does drive down the cost of private insurance (under which I'm also covered).

    I'm sure there are Americans that don't mind what they have to pay, but I believe they should be given a choice. Right now, I believe the number is around 50 million without healthcare? That's appalling for a civilized, industrialized country.



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    Captain Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    exactly, to both

    while I'd love to help people, I can't afford several thousand dollars to cover a surgery for someone. I can, however, afford (for me, it's about 170 a month) to pay for premiums that act as a pool where LOTS of people can be covered, including me. A good number of countries in the world do this - at far less cost that the US model for healthcare. And yes, it does drive down the cost of private insurance (under which I'm also covered).

    I'm sure there are Americans that don't mind what they have to pay, but I believe they should be given a choice. Right now, I believe the number is around 50 million without healthcare? That's appalling for a civilized, industrialized country.
    I don't know now the healthcare bill has passed in America but I read somewhere Turkey and the US were the only two countries not to have some sort universal public healthcare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilSpaceAlien View Post
    Yeah, there are no death panels at all in universal healthcare. That is a complete myth and fabrication that's used as a scare tactic by those who oppose it. And the fact is that you already have death panels run by private insurance companies that try their hardest to find every little loophole they can use to deny a potential life saving treatment for a patient.
    Over here the government doesn't even directly employ the doctors, they are still employed by the individual hospitals, the county just provides funding for the hospitals and they are not directly involved in the day to day running of the hospitals. The only thing the county directly controls is which doctor is employed as the head of all the public hospitals in the county, but even then it needs to achieve a majority in a vote in the county council with all political parties present before he/she can be employed/fired.

    I think school vouchers are a good thing because if a parent wants to enroll their child in a private school they shouldn't have to pay taxes for a public school system that they don't even use. It's important to give the parents the freedom to choose how and where they want to educate their child.
    Well it sure is interesting how much substance there is to this myths and fabrications.

    Yes but the fact of the matter is, well two fold. First of all the choice is in the hands of the people who are using that insurance and making that point. The company in question serves the people who are doing it and all the company can do is advise the people on what the best option is. Second of all when a company does do that kind of things its called murder, when a Government does those types of things it is called for the good of the society. This is especially potent since the Government has helped to create the health care system that the United States is in, which has raised prices, forced people to go to insurance companies, and taken choice out of our hands...and now they are riding to the rescue in fixing a problem they created in the first place, when it seems everyone and their brother knows this is a bad idea because of all the Companies that are getting exemptions.

    And no death panels in Universal Health care? You say. first of all it is so very interesting how you can project the Sweedish system, which to be honest does not soundthat bad...as far as freedom stripping and fiscally irresponsible big Government programs go...and project that health care system onto every single Government run health care system in the entire world. It is fascinating how you can do that. Secondly, the Sweedish health care system has private options and private companies where you can go to for insurance? Right. So by your logic and everything that you have admitted to be true in your 'Universal' Health Care system, since private companies have death panels...by your own admission, then the Sweedish Health Care system must have death panels too. Just using your logic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    that's a kind way to put it but what amazes me is how many buy into it in spite of all the facts to the contrary
    And it amazes me how someone from Canda can use their own wonderful health care system for a template for another countries health care system when they do not know of all of the 'facts'

    Like the fact that a Democratic Congressman recently sent around an e-mail warning people not to talk about provisions in the Health Care bill because they could be death panels. Like Ezikiel Emanuel who is advocating a 'complete lives system' so that younger people who are healthy get more medicine and more medical attention then someone who is old, and infirm, or just plain sick. Or like the fact that Cass Sunstein has often talked about nudging, manipulating people and using the power of the Government to manipulate people into making descisions that are against their best interests, and for some kind of weird Government agenda. Or how about the fact that the recession is now causing medicines, medical supplies, and vaccines to be in ever shortening supply?

    Yes, pardon me but I tend to get a bit..nervous...when the Government starts talking about manipulating people. I tend to get a bit...concerned...when people in and around the Government starts putting a value on one group of lives over another, all for the good of he society and social progress. And I get a bit antsy going into a system that is corrupt, dishonest, and unclear, when we now may be facing a shortage of medical supplies. Which will lead to rationing.

    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    I disagree. If a taxpayer service is offered that you can, at any time of eligibility, join, you should have to pay taxes on it. I'm a college student, my tax dollars pay for a great many things that don't impact me at all right now, but I'm happy to pay for them all the same. There's someone out there that is getting a better quality of life because of that, and one day I may benefit the same on someone else's payment. I'm all for letting people go to private school, and perhaps a small tax break is in order for those, but not a skipping of school-related taxes entirely. Especially not when schools generally host events that the entire community, public- and private-school families included, take advantage of.
    interesting....
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

    To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

    The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.
    no
    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    exactly, to both

    while I'd love to help people, I can't afford several thousand dollars to cover a surgery for someone. I can, however, afford (for me, it's about 170 a month) to pay for premiums that act as a pool where LOTS of people can be covered, including me. A good number of countries in the world do this - at far less cost that the US model for healthcare. And yes, it does drive down the cost of private insurance (under which I'm also covered).

    I'm sure there are Americans that don't mind what they have to pay, but I believe they should be given a choice. Right now, I believe the number is around 50 million without healthcare? That's appalling for a civilized, industrialized country.
    thats what charities are for.

    Many Americans feel they do not need, or want health care insurance. they would rather have their playstations, their xboxes, their cars, and their big screen tvs then have health care. Or feel that they just do not need it since they are healthy. Again that should be their choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    I don't know now the healthcare bill has passed in America but I read somewhere Turkey and the US were the only two countries not to have some sort universal public healthcare.
    Damn Turkey is the last bastion of freedom in the world. Well as far as Heatlh Care is concerned...

  18. #98
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shipper hannah View Post
    The NHS also drives down the cost of private healthcare because they have to compete with it. So it's win-win, really.
    not when one of the entities that's competing is also writing the rules

  19. #99
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    humor break:



    now back to the regularly scheduled political debates

  20. #100
    Colonel s09119's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    not when one of the entities that's competing is also writing the rules
    That's just not true when you look at countries where it happens. You don't see the government running private interests out of business.
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