Page 4 of 1694 FirstFirst 123456714541045041004 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 33868
  1. #61
    Major Ukko's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Hanging with Table.
    Posts
    2,748

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    oh yeah...having the government control every facet of your personal life.....oh yeah it's the cat's meow......boy I'd love nothin' more than to have the government take control of all my money and spend it in ways I have no control over at all....how could anyone resist such a tempting offer?
    Im the wrong person to use that argument on, trust me.

    Given the ammount of crap and useless ******** i see people spending their so called "hard earned" money on day by day and the amount of people fooled by the stupidist scams and cons, they could do with someone telling them what to do.


  2. #62
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Back from Sabbatical in Thedas
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    oh yeah...having the government control every facet of your personal life.....oh yeah it's the cat's meow......boy I'd love nothin' more than to have the government take control of all my money and spend it in ways I have no control over at all....how could anyone resist such a tempting offer?
    To be entirely fair though that is more on the total communism side of things. Socialism is the great bridge in between Capiltilsim and Communism, as such you can have 'Socialist lite'. The more socialist you go, the less freedoms you tend to have and the more corruption tends to enter the system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    Im the wrong person to use that argument on, trust me.

    Given the ammount of crap and useless ******** i see people spending their so called "hard earned" money on day by day and the amount of people fooled by the stupidist scams and cons, they could do with someone telling them what to do.
    Its their money though.

  3. #63
    Major Ukko's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Hanging with Table.
    Posts
    2,748

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Col.Foley View Post
    To be entirely fair though that is more on the total communism side of things. Socialism is the great bridge in between Capiltilsim and Communism, as such you can have 'Socialist lite'. The more socialist you go, the less freedoms you tend to have and the more corruption tends to enter the system.


    Its their money though.
    They need to learn how to use it propperly.


  4. #64
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Back from Sabbatical in Thedas
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    They need to learn how to use it propperly.
    And who are you to judge what is a proper use of ones money and what is not a proper use of ones money? And just because they, in your opinion, do not know how to use it properly means that you suddenly have the right to take it from them and then use it however you want to? And what gurantee do you have that you or the people that you give it to will be any more wise and frugal with the money that you just took in the first place because of the improperly done spending?

  5. #65
    Colonel s09119's Avatar
    Member Since
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Avalon
    Posts
    7,456

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Col.Foley View Post
    To be entirely fair though that is more on the total communism side of things. Socialism is the great bridge in between Capiltilsim and Communism, as such you can have 'Socialist lite'. The more socialist you go, the less freedoms you tend to have and the more corruption tends to enter the system.
    That is the biggest load of ignorant bull about socialism I've ever heard.
    Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!
    Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"

  6. #66
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Back from Sabbatical in Thedas
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    That is the biggest load of ignorant bull about socialism I've ever heard.
    No its not, its straight from the mouth of Marx.

  7. #67
    Lieutenant Colonel xxxevilgrinxxx's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    4,295

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    I'm cool with that.
    me too - after all, we've paid for government, we've appointed government, why shouldn't we expect them to do things for us? Government is our servant. We've given them money collectively to do things for all of us, things we, as a country, choose are important for them to do. I don't see what the big deal is with it either.



    SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

  8. #68
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Back from Sabbatical in Thedas
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    me too - after all, we've paid for government, we've appointed government, why shouldn't we expect them to do things for us? Government is our servant. We've given them money collectively to do things for all of us, things we, as a country, choose are important for them to do. I don't see what the big deal is with it either.
    Yes Government is our servant, in Socialism Government becomes the master.

  9. #69
    Harvey jelgate's Avatar
    Member Since
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Beach of naked Sebeceans and margarita shooter
    Posts
    35,034

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Col.Foley View Post
    Yes Government is our servant, in Socialism Government becomes the master.
    That is an exagerration to say the least to just plain incorrect.
    Quote Originally Posted by aretood2 View Post
    Jelgate is right

  10. #70
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Back from Sabbatical in Thedas
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jelgate View Post
    That is an exagerration to say the least to just plain incorrect.
    Point of view I guess.

  11. #71
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    6,812

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    "when people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty"

  12. #72
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Back from Sabbatical in Thedas
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_gater View Post
    "when people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty"
    Go TJ

  13. #73
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    6,812

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    me too - after all, we've paid for government, we've appointed government, why shouldn't we expect them to do things for us? Government is our servant. We've given them money collectively to do things for all of us, things we, as a country, choose are important for them to do. I don't see what the big deal is with it either.
    yes....we hire government, but to do only one thing.....govern.....which means to make, sign, and enforce fair and just laws based on representative input of the people and ensure their safety both locally and as a nation....nowhere in the "job description" does governing mean "to give handouts"

  14. #74
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    6,812

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Col.Foley View Post
    And who are you to judge what is a proper use of ones money and what is not a proper use of ones money? And just because they, in your opinion, do not know how to use it properly means that you suddenly have the right to take it from them and then use it however you want to? And what gurantee do you have that you or the people that you give it to will be any more wise and frugal with the money that you just took in the first place because of the improperly done spending?
    indeed....just who the frell are you Ukko to decide how I should spend my money.......if I wanted to buy a crapload of chocolate with it and eat it all myself and make myself sick with it that's MY choice....not yours or nobody else's, not even government's......thankfully as a Catholic I was taught compassion for my fellow man....so I do use what I am able to use towards donations....which may not be much, if anything for awhile since I've got plenty of bills to help pay

  15. #75
    Lieutenant Colonel jmoz's Avatar
    Member Since
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Undefined
    Posts
    4,001

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    lol, the thick headedness goes both ways.

    Don't understand why you're so adamant with a free-market system. You seem to value freedom in your choices. Hope you realize there is greater freedom to be had if you allow the government to control some aspects of your finances.

    And no, I'm not supporting pure socialism. There always has to be a balance. A complete free-market economy is inefficient and will limit your freedom of choice. A free-market system is self-defeating really because it gives rise to big businesses who maintain their businesses by squelching the rise and growth of small business, the people business.

    With socialism, they control all aspects of business. Which would diminish the effects of big business. The best thing is to have a balance of the two. I think the Scandinavian countries are the best demonstration of that. Government is in control of some various aspects of life including the major businesses, but they allow prosperity and opportunity for small business and individual market growth. I'm not too sure but I think they control healthcare and education. People don't think in macroeconomic aspect, they always think in microeconomics aspects. Allowing some macroeconomic dominance is more beneficial for everyone and leads to a wider variety of microeconomic prospects.

    And you keep saying that people that people will help each other out through charities, I'm presuming? That people should be in charge of that and not governments? You yourself just proved that is an inefficient method. People are inherently selfish and will indulge themselves. They have no interest in others unless it benefits them. That's why we have governments in the first place. To govern those interests but combine the efforts and earn greater benefits (quality of life) through some relinquishment of some freedom for greater amount of freedom.

  16. #76
    Colonel Col.Foley's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Back from Sabbatical in Thedas
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jmoz View Post
    lol, the thick headedness goes both ways.

    Don't understand why you're so adamant with a free-market system. You seem to value freedom in your choices. Hope you realize there is greater freedom to be had if you allow the government to control some aspects of your finances.

    And no, I'm not supporting pure socialism. There always has to be a balance. A complete free-market economy is inefficient and will limit your freedom of choice. A free-market system is self-defeating really because it gives rise to big businesses who maintain their businesses by squelching the rise and growth of small business, the people business.

    With socialism, they control all aspects of business. Which would diminish the effects of big business. The best thing is to have a balance of the two. I think the Scandinavian countries are the best demonstration of that. Government is in control of some various aspects of life including the major businesses, but they allow prosperity and opportunity for small business and individual market growth. I'm not too sure but I think they control healthcare and education. People don't think in macroeconomic aspect, they always think in microeconomics aspects. Allowing some macroeconomic dominance is more beneficial for everyone and leads to a wider variety of microeconomic prospects.

    And you keep saying that people that people will help each other out through charities, I'm presuming? That people should be in charge of that and not governments? You yourself just proved that is an inefficient method. People are inherently selfish and will indulge themselves. They have no interest in others unless it benefits them. That's why we have governments in the first place. To govern those interests but combine the efforts and earn greater benefits (quality of life) through some relinquishment of some freedom for greater amount of freedom.
    Which ones?

    Good thing that you are not supporting that since there is no such thing as pure socialism. Socialism itself is a half ******* hybrid. The only way that big buisness can limit the freedoms of anyone else is through the power of Government as we have seen countless times in the recent years.

    So in Scandanavia they chose which buisnesses they support, and which they do not, that is not being an umpire that is being an active participant. And that limits freedoms. And they control health care and education? The two most important aspects of ones life to control. Without them and without freedom for those choices freedom in anything else becomes meaningless.

    No that is not what Government is for. Government is to protect someones life, liberty, and property. And their ability to pursue happiness. There is no proper justification for Government to both be the cop, and an actual player on the field. And people are not inherently anything. And the idea of Socialism that I have heard advocated on GW is that people there is no way that people can e charitable enough to meet the needs of all people, one that is not the point of charity, but on the other hand if there is no way there is not enough wealth in the country to provide for everyone and their brother through charity. Then how the heck can their be enough money in this country and enough wealth to help everyone and their brother even if you taxed them one hundred percent? Especially considering Governments are very ineficient, very bad with their money, and very poor at distribution. probably why we are in such a deep debt. And oh yes before I forget. You know what the Government is made up of? PEOPLE. The same ignorant, greedy, stupid, selfish people that you just railed against and you expect them to act like angels because they are in Government?

  17. #77
    Lieutenant Colonel EvilSpaceAlien's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2009
    Location
    The Great Red North
    Posts
    3,394

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jmoz View Post
    Scandinavian countries are the best demonstration of that. Government is in control of some various aspects of life including the major businesses, but they allow prosperity and opportunity for small business and individual market growth. I'm not too sure but I think they control healthcare and education. People don't think in macroeconomic aspect, they always think in microeconomics aspects. Allowing some macroeconomic dominance is more beneficial for everyone and leads to a wider variety of microeconomic prospects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Col.Foley View Post
    So in Scandanavia they chose which buisnesses they support, and which they do not, that is not being an umpire that is being an active participant. And that limits freedoms. And they control health care and education? The two most important aspects of ones life to control. Without them and without freedom for those choices freedom in anything else becomes meaningless.
    I'm sorry, but some of what you're saying here is just plain wrong. I live in Sweden, and all our big companies aren't controlled by the government at all. I would not call private companies like Volvo, Electrolux, ASSA ABLOY, Securitas, H&M or Ericsson small. Hell, the government only has full ownership of one company that could be regarded as "big".
    We do have a universal healthcare system controlled by the government, but there are private alternatives available as well, and it's the same with the education system, where we even have vouchers for private schools, something I've heard that the american system lacks. People have all the freedom to choose where they get their education or healthcare from, but they don't risk losing something as essential as healthcare, which is a good thing. And just for the record, there are NO GOVERNMENT DEATH PANELS.

  18. #78
    Captain Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Leeds,West Yorkshire, U.K
    Posts
    1,132

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    I just think health care is a right and should be paid through general taxation. I will repost something I posted on another thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    I very much doubt people are charitable enough to raise enough money to help all the 'needy'. To me the help in this country that is given to disabled justifies NHS all by itself. They provided with all medicine for free, a wheelchair worth up to £5,000, can apply to get their house adapted for their needs for free, can get Disability Living Allowance for their living cost and 24 hour care if they need it . They may paid for by 'evil' taxes but who is so opposed to helping the ill they would refuse to pay. Disagree with me if you want I would just rather pay into a safety net than a system of private insurance.

    Of course there is a place for charity I just think it is there to supplement the governments role like for example in the UK the Motability scheme.

    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Disabled...ce/DG_10028000

  19. #79
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    6,812

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    I just think health care is a right and should be paid through general taxation. I will repost something I posted on another thread.
    then you need to read the Constitution again.....government's only role is to govern.....everything else regarding commerce is left to "we the people" to decide.....is it so much to ask that I help the needy on MY terms rather than a stuffed shirt bureaucrat's terms?

  20. #80
    Lieutenant Colonel xxxevilgrinxxx's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    4,295

    Default Re: The Political Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jelgate View Post
    That is an exagerration to say the least to just plain incorrect.
    Of course it is but it's just so easy to terrify people with the scary words, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilSpaceAlien View Post
    I'm sorry, but some of what you're saying here is just plain wrong. I live in Sweden, and all our big companies aren't controlled by the government at all. I would not call private companies like Volvo, Electrolux, ASSA ABLOY, Securitas, H&M or Ericsson small. Hell, the government only has full ownership of one company that could be regarded as "big".
    We do have a universal healthcare system controlled by the government, but there are private alternatives available as well, and it's the same with the education system, where we even have vouchers for private schools, something I've heard that the american system lacks. People have all the freedom to choose where they get their education or healthcare from, but they don't risk losing something as essential as healthcare, which is a good thing. And just for the record, there are NO GOVERNMENT DEATH PANELS.
    It amazes me. There is this kneejerk reaction when (I'm being very simplistic here) "government controls big companies" (socialism) but when "big companies control government" (corporatism or fascism), I scarcely hear a peep from a good section of Americans.
    In Canada, we get the same scaremongering about healthcare as well. Yes, we have universal healthcare. It is not "free". There are also private options as well. I for instance pay into the larger healthcare pool via premiums - how is this any different than paying for healthcare insurance? I also have extended benefits through a private insurer for , well, extended benefits We don't have death panels here either, despite a whole lot of blather that got spit out during a US election.
    I think socialism is getting used as a terrifying word by a segment of the US political sector, not because of any real threat from socialism but because if not for these terrifying scenarios that get painted, a good deal of the American public may well CHOOSE that system, which would take money out of the hands of insurance companies who - you've got to admit, are making a hell of a lot of money on people's misfortune.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    I just think health care is a right and should be paid through general taxation. I will repost something I posted on another thread.
    I agree completely. I think a good deal of us have heard of instances where there is a literal choice being made between health and paying the rent or food bills, where people have been wiped out financially due to an illness. Destitution shouldn't be the price paid for health.

    The Canadian choice is right for me. I won't say the American choice is wrong for Americans, but I will say that the debate would be better served without the language of terrorising terms getting batted about whenever socialized medicine, something a good deal of the world manages for its citizens, gets mentioned.



    SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

Tags for this Thread

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3363
    Last Post: March 5th, 2008, 11:02 AM
  2. Political Discussion: The proper place of the Law
    By uknesvuinng in forum Off-Topic Chatter
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: July 28th, 2007, 12:37 PM
  3. The WW2 Discussion Thread
    By the_dark_light in forum Off-Topic Chatter
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: July 20th, 2007, 01:12 AM
  4. X-Men III Discussion Thread
    By twiggy in forum Marvel Universe (Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.)
    Replies: 138
    Last Post: October 6th, 2006, 11:12 PM
  5. Replies: 38
    Last Post: August 25th, 2004, 09:56 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •