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  1. #81

    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Snow is the Queen who took Guide as a consort. Alabaster is the daughter of Queen Snow and the consort Guide.

    You have no reason to trust me on this, but it's definitely so.

  2. #82
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    I am not saying that is not so, or that it is not clarified further on in the series. I am just saying that early in Homecoming the way it is written makes me think that Snow is the daughter whatever or not that is right or not.

  3. #83
    Lieutenant Colonel Isolde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post

    Yes off course they do not need to reproduce as often as humans do, but still it would be to slow a reproduction, especially since they do loose allot of men in battle. And also we never, ever see a pregnant Queen. If human reproduction was to be how they did it, if they where going to have a chance in hell of reproducing fast enough that would mean the Queens would be constantly pregnant and we do not see one who are. This is the strongest indication that they do not reproduce like humans do, it just would not work.
    And of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    They can be one percent bug and the rest human for all I care. I am just observing that with 60 and most likely less females they could not keep their numbers up through normal pregnancies, and especially not since none of those seen, over 10 percent of them, where not pregnant.
    This is a very arbtrary figure, and I'm under the impression that you are simply adding up the number of hives and deducting the rate of attrition with regard to Queens? So you don't think there would be more to Wraith civilisation than what we've seen on screen i.e. hives? You don't think there would be an industrial base from which all this tech is derived, or that their society might be semi-nomadic, or possibly that there could be an agrarian facet to the culture? How do they feed their children, which are established as requiring food to live, where are the children kept, who cares for them, and how? Who manufactures all the equipment we've seen, and where is their industrial base?

    No society exists in a vacuum, and Wraith are way past the hunter gatherer stage. This is a species that has FTL, and therefore must also have much greater recourse to methods we do not understand ourselves. Indulge me, and say if Wraith do use IVF (or equivalent) to manufacture blades/clevermen, then they could be podded up for gestation, which would bypass the need for pregnancy. But Wraith did not, could not, evolve and then pull the tech from out their backsides - that is sheer idiocy - so at one time in their evolution they would have had to rely on old-fashioned sexual reproduction.

    Other factors you have to add in are the very distinct possibility that the Ancients did more than have a negligent hand in their evolution, and that they were used by said Ancients as some kind of experiment.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Isolde View Post
    Other factors you have to add in are the very distinct possibility that the Ancients did more than have a negligent hand in their evolution, and that they were used by said Ancients as some kind of experiment.

    I agree. Based on what Carson said about his previous theory being possibly faulty, I'd say we could assume the uneven gender ratios in Wraith population are unlikely to be purely the product of a natural evolution process but could be the result of some sort of genetic engineering/meddling. Who meddled and for what purpose remains the question.
    Last edited by Draco-Stellaris; March 14th, 2011 at 06:57 AM.

  5. #85
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    This is a very arbtrary figure, and I'm under the impression that you are simply adding up the number of hives and deducting the rate of attrition with regard to Queens?
    I am using logic, if you have 60 or so hives, which is what is stated in the show that there are, then there are a maximum of 60 Queen as there are only one per hive. 6 is ten percent of 60. In addition since allot of Queens have been killed of the number is probably lower than that, but 60 is the maximum.

    So you don't think there would be more to Wraith civilisation than what we've seen on screen i.e. hives?
    Off course there is. But since what one have seen on screen is the only thing one have to go on anything else would be pure guesswork, entertaining guesswork, but still guesswork.

    You don't think there would be an industrial base from which all this tech is derived, or that their society might be semi-nomadic, or possibly that there could be an agrarian facet to the culture? How do they feed their children, which are established as requiring food to live, where are the children kept, who cares for them, and how? Who manufactures all the equipment we've seen, and where is their industrial base?
    Interesting questions. I would assume that they take quite a bit of supplies from the worlds they cull, and their ships is certainly big enough to contain nurseries and fabrication facilities. However anything about this again would be speculation, and even if they did have a central depository or a city somewhere that would not really support the idea that they breed like humans do any more than if they produce all they have on their ships.

    No society exists in a vacuum, and Wraith are way past the hunter gatherer stage. This is a species that has FTL, and therefore must also have much greater recourse to methods we do not understand ourselves. Indulge me, and say if Wraith do use IVF (or equivalent) to manufacture blades/clevermen, then they could be podded up for gestation, which would bypass the need for pregnancy. But Wraith did not, could not, evolve and then pull the tech from out their backsides - that is sheer idiocy - so at one time in their evolution they would have had to rely on old-fashioned sexual reproduction.
    I am not sure what IVF is but I assume it stands for some sort of artificial gestation. However that is not what am suggesting. There is allot of creatures who do not birth live young. Fish do not grow their young in tanks, the female sprout out a huge number of eggs, which the male then fertilize. (there are variations but this is the most common.) Spiders do not grow their young in tanks, they lay huge amounts of eggs which is then placed in sack like constructions until they hatch. Ants do not grow their young in vats, the queens are fertilized once and then over her lifespan say every now and then plop out an egg which eventually hatch. Birds do not grow their young in vats they lay eggs.

    I do not know where you got the idea that I think the Wraith grow their young in test tubes, off course they do not. However I do not think they do the hubba hubba, go pregnant for nine months and then birth a baby. If I am to guess I would say it is more likely that it works like with ants or spiders, with the Queen somehow being fertilized and then producing unfinished offspring in some sort of pod which then matures and hatches as that is a much more effective way to produce many offspring than a nine month pregnancy which results in one child.

    I am not saying that there is no sort of sex involved, but I doubt that it is the same as with humans. Let us take common black ants as an example. A few individuals, males and females do not become workers, soldiers and so on, instead they grow wings. These winged ants will fly out of the anthill and mate, allot. After this the male wing ants die and the females are fertilized for life and they, unless killed kill become the queen of a new hill, just as an example here, another example, the Chile Rose tarantula, the female will live for 16 to 40 years, but they do not die of old age, at some point the female get an itch she can not scratch and she stops eating and at the same time she send out pheromones to attract a male. The male will fertilize her. The weakened female will then build a nest and lay her eggs, then she will starve herself to death so that when her myriad of young hatches they can get their first meal from her body. Great white sharks appears to be giving birth to live young, but instead the female lay eggs, but the eggs are internal, the male then fertilizes those eggs, then they hatch still inside the mother. A myriad of tiny, baby sharks live inside their mother, fighting one another, killing and eating their siblings until only the one or two strongest remain who are then born.

    There are so many ways nature produces young, and each species have a way to do it which best suits the needs of that race. Why would not Wraith be the same way. Off course the Queen is in some way fertilized, however for a race with so few females it makes allot more sense for her to produce young in a way that A do not weaken her as much as normal human pregnancy do and B produces many babies at once.

    I agree. Based on what Carson said about his previous theory being possibly faulty, I'd say the uneven gender ratios in Wraith population are unlikely to be purely the product of a natural evolution process but could be the result of some sort of genetic engineering/meddling. Who meddled and for what purpose remains the question.
    I could be that the Ancients developed Wraith as a way to see if it was possible to live of energy completely. They might not have considered that that energy would come from human beings. I am just guessing here, but for some Ancients on the road to Ascension the idea of being sustained by Energy alone might be very seductive.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    I am using logic, if you have 60 or so hives, which is what is stated in the show that there are, then there are a maximum of 60 Queen as there are only one per hive. 6 is ten percent of 60. In addition since allot of Queens have been killed of the number is probably lower than that, but 60 is the maximum.
    Here is an excerpt from the transcript for "Underground." 60 is the best guess of the Genii for he number for active hiveships and doesn't seem include other facilities, like the cloning facility used in "SOW," or they would have paid that location a visit.

    http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1...ipts/108.shtml

    ATLANTIS. CONTROL ROOM. Elizabeth and John walk over to a console where Doctor Peter Grodin is working.

    WEIR: Major, I thought you might like to see this.

    GRODIN: A lot of the information we downloaded from the data storage device was encrypted, so we're still working on that.

    SHEPPARD: Yeah, I didn't think it would be easy.

    GRODIN: But we were able to ascertain the existence of twenty-one Wraith hive ships just in our quadrant of the Pegasus galaxy alone.

    SHEPPARD: Twenty-one?!

    GRODIN: And there are indications of far more elsewhere in Pegasus.

    SHEPPARD: How many more?

    GRODIN: Well, there's no way of knowing for sure. Perhaps sixty, or more.

    SHEPPARD: That's a lot of ships.

    GRODIN: Some of them already appear to be on the move.
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

  7. #87
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Here is an excerpt from the transcript for "Underground." 60 is the best guess of the Genii for he number for active hiveships and doesn't seem include other facilities, like the cloning facility used in "SOW," or they would have paid that location a visit.
    Off course 60 is not an exact number however there is nothing in the series indicating that there are much more. That being said even if it was five million hives the fact would remain that the female to male ratio would make human type reproduction both impractical and improbable. Most living things have a type of reproduction which git their needs, there are a few exceptions like pandas who have a reproduction so impractical it is amazing they have survived this long, however for the most part, evolution make it so that a race's method of having babies fit the race's needs.

    Now the only way that Wraith could possibly be having children the same way humans do are if the Ancients indeed genetically engineered them and put in a bottle neck to control reproduction, however barring something like that it is just not logical for a race where less than one in two thousand individuals are females for a female to use the better part of a year to produce one child.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Now the only way that Wraith could possibly be having children the same way humans do are if the Ancients indeed genetically engineered them and put in a bottle neck to control reproduction, however barring something like that it is just not logical for a race where less than one in two thousand individuals are females for a female to use the better part of a year to produce one child.
    That is what I am guessing. The Ancients meddled in everything else, and, as was said in WDC, the lack of files on the Wraith in the Ancient databases is suspicious.
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

  9. #89
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    I still think it is more likely that it is ant like reproduction going on, but I am not completely rejecting the idea of Ancients having meddled with Wraith and tried to put in a bottle neck in reproduction for safety which then failed.

  10. #90
    Lieutenant Colonel Isolde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Off course there is. But since what one have seen on screen is the only thing one have to go on anything else would be pure guesswork, entertaining guesswork, but still guesswork.
    Hmm, by this logic we should never entertain anything other than what we have seen on the screen, so speculation is out of the proverbial window. So, in that respect, I don't think you should bother with the books, as most of this is developed in a way that you will find disagreeable.

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Interesting questions. I would assume that they take quite a bit of supplies from the worlds they cull, and their ships is certainly big enough to contain nurseries and fabrication facilities. However anything about this again would be speculation ...

    I am not sure what IVF is but I assume it stands for some sort of artificial gestation. However that is not what am suggesting. There is allot of creatures who do not birth live young. Fish do not grow their young in tanks, the female sprout out a huge number of eggs, which the male then fertilize. (there are variations but this is the most common.) Spiders do not grow their young in tanks, they lay huge amounts of eggs which is then placed in sack like constructions until they hatch. Ants do not grow their young in vats, the queens are fertilized once and then over her lifespan say every now and then plop out an egg which eventually hatch. Birds do not grow their young in vats they lay eggs.

    I do not know where you got the idea that I think the Wraith grow their young in test tubes, off course they do not. However I do not think they do the hubba hubba, go pregnant for nine months and then birth a baby. If I am to guess I would say it is more likely that it works like with ants or spiders, with the Queen somehow being fertilized and then producing unfinished offspring in some sort of pod which then matures and hatches as that is a much more effective way to produce many offspring than a nine month pregnancy which results in one child.


    IVF = In Vitro Fetilisation = test tube babies, and no, I didn't think that. As for the remainder of your points, I am well aware of other methods of reproduction within different species, and so are the other members of the WDC. I think you'll find that as a whole we're a pretty intelligent bunch of people with a great deal of accumulated knowledge, so you're not telling us anything new.

    However, I would say that you are being either disingenuous if you suggest I suppose ants, spiders and the like place their eggs in 'tanks', or believe that I'm just stupid? Of course not, because they do not have the tech or intellect, but they might if they did. Ah, but again I'm speculating so that is impossible.

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    I am not saying that there is no sort of sex involved, but I doubt that it is the same as with humans. Let us take common black ants as an example. A few individuals, males and females do not become workers, soldiers and so on, instead they grow wings. These winged ants will fly out of the anthill and mate, allot. After this the male wing ants die and the females are fertilized for life and they, unless killed kill become the queen of a new hill, just as an example here, another example, the Chile Rose tarantula, the female will live for 16 to 40 years, but they do not die of old age, at some point the female get an itch she can not scratch and she stops eating and at the same time she send out pheromones to attract a male. The male will fertilize her. The weakened female will then build a nest and lay her eggs, then she will starve herself to death so that when her myriad of young hatches they can get their first meal from her body. Great white sharks appears to be giving birth to live young, but instead the female lay eggs, but the eggs are internal, the male then fertilizes those eggs, then they hatch still inside the mother. A myriad of tiny, baby sharks live inside their mother, fighting one another, killing and eating their siblings until only the one or two strongest remain who are then born.


    Yeah, I know. And so do the rest of the WDC, as this is a subject discussed ad nauseam. You're forgetting we've been talking about this stuff a lot longer than you, hon.

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    There are so many ways nature produces young, and each species have a way to do it which best suits the needs of that race. Why would not Wraith be the same way. Off course the Queen is in some way fertilized, however for a race with so few females it makes allot more sense for her to produce young in a way that A do not weaken her as much as normal human pregnancy do and B produces many babies at once.


    Fertilisation by numerous partners is best in this regard as it would ensure a greater genetic variation within the species.Too much inbreeding is not a good thing. However, I am at a loss as to why pregnancy would weaken a female Wraith? Teyla wasn't weakened and neither are most human woman, though of course there are exceptions to any rule. Pregnancy is a natural thing, and if it carried so many risks as to leave a mother vulnerable, I believe it would not be the way we reproduce now, as evolution would have put a stop to that.

    The other thing about Wraith is that as an apex predator, it behoves them to keep their numbers small, as their food source i.e. us is vulnerable, and takes a looooong time to mature. The only reason there are so many about in Pegasus is because Team Shep wandered in and essentially threw a hand grenade that upset the whole balance. In that respect, rapid reproduction is counterindicative.

  11. #91
    First Lieutenant Starsaber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    For the whole Wraith Pregnancy thing, maybe they only use human style reproduction to create queens, a different technique for wraith commanders ("named" Wraith), and cloning for drones.

  12. #92
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Hmm, by this logic we should never entertain anything other than what we have seen on the screen, so speculation is out of the proverbial window. So, in that respect, I don't think you should bother with the books, as most of this is developed in a way that you will find disagreeable.
    If you read my posts you will see that I do several times say jay speculation. What I am saying is that we do not know as a fact other things than what is shown on the series and that all else is well, speculation. Also I do like most of the Stargate books I have read, having one or two issued here and there do not mean I do not like the books. However why do you seam so upset over this, have I insulted you in any way but not agreeing with your speculations, for that have not been my intention.

    Yeah, I know. And so do the rest of the WDC, as this is a subject discussed ad nauseam. You're forgetting we've been talking about this stuff a lot longer than you, hon.
    Well since it is obviously not possible to have a discussion without either having to agree on every point or the other person getting upset then obviously this is not the place for new members to have a debate either. I am sorry, however I really do not understand your reaction, we are speculating the reproductive process of a fictional race of vampires in a fictional universe, I do not really see why you are offended that I do not agree with you on this topic, is it really so important to you that any dissonance or disagreement from another equals an insult in your eyes?

    Fertilisation by numerous partners is best in this regard as it would ensure a greater genetic variation within the species.Too much inbreeding is not a good thing. However, I am at a loss as to why pregnancy would weaken a female Wraith? Teyla wasn't weakened and neither are most human woman, though of course there are exceptions to any rule.
    Most doctors would disagree with you, a woman who is pregnant usually suffers fatigue, is more in danger of illness, and the last few months of pregnancy she is reduced. Pregnancy do take an enormous toll of a woman's body and there is no reason to think it would not take a toll on a Wraith. In all mammalian spices pregnancy weakens the mother, ask any biologist.

    Pregnancy is a natural thing, and if it carried so many risks as to leave a mother vulnerable, I believe it would not be the way we reproduce now, as evolution would have put a stop to that.
    Pregnancy is a leading cause of death among women in many parts of the world, and it was in the West as well before we had hospitals and advanced medical science who can prevent many of the complications. Why do you think pregnant women are generally followed very closely by her doctors when she is pregnant? A rather large percentage of all pregnancies lead to complications. Now the last few months of a pregnancy a rather huge amount of woman can not work, you have hormones in unbalance I could go on and on on medical problems with pregnancy. Most women are tired for a long time after having given birth, and it is seen in societies where women still have many children that mothers who have gone through many pragmatics have more health problems and die younger than those with few children. Pregnancy is natural yes, however something being natural do not mean it is good for you.

    The other thing about Wraith is that as an apex predator, it behoves them to keep their numbers small, as their food source i.e. us is vulnerable, and takes a looooong time to mature. The only reason there are so many about in Pegasus is because Team Shep wandered in and essentially threw a hand grenade that upset the whole balance. In that respect, rapid reproduction is counterindicative.
    Yes their numbers have to be kept low that is true. However think of it this way, if a hive lost three members during a culling the Queen would be weakened with pregnancy for over two years to replace them. With so few females their numbers would go constantly down, not up.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsaber View Post
    For the whole Wraith Pregnancy thing, maybe they only use human style reproduction to create queens, a different technique for wraith commanders ("named" Wraith), and cloning for drones.
    The author's blog leans toward live birth for faced officers and Queens, each being individuals. So far, what we have seen in "Homecoming" is that Snow honored Guide with a son, then a daughter (p34).
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Yes their numbers have to be kept low that is true. However think of it this way, if a hive lost three members during a culling the Queen would be weakened with pregnancy for over two years to replace them. With so few females their numbers would go constantly down, not up.
    The loss of faced officers could be minimized by how they usually send one at a time and let the team of masked warriors do the heavy battle work.

    As for other Wraith reproduction methods, the Wraith hive in "Nightfall" did have the means for growing Wraith children in pods, including Queens (p. 222).
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

  15. #95
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    The author's blog leans toward live birth for faced officers and Queens, each being individuals. So far, what we have seen in "Homecoming" is that Snow honored Guide with a son, then a daughter (p34).
    Yes I know, that is why I mentioned it as this seams strange to me from how it seams in the series and the number of Queens. It is in no way a deal breaker as it is a great book so far, it is just a tiny little thing that bothered me.

    The loss of faced officers could be minimized by how they usually send one at a time and let the team of masked warriors do the heavy battle work.
    Yes that is true. However if Wraith was birthed like humans that would make every faced officer extremely valuable.

    As for other Wraith reproduction methods, the Wraith hive in "Nightfall" did have the means for growing Wraith children in pods, including Queens (p. 222).
    I had completely forgotten this part of the comic, but yes you are right about that, and that could reduce the pressure off Queens birthing children I agree with that.
    Last edited by Hagazussa; March 14th, 2011 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Added something.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    If you read my posts you will see that I do several times say jay speculation. What I am saying is that we do not know as a fact other things than what is shown on the series and that all else is well, speculation. Also I do like most of the Stargate books I have read, having one or two issued here and there do not mean I do not like the books. However why do you seam so upset over this, have I insulted you in any way but not agreeing with your speculations, for that have not been my intention.

    Well since it is obviously not possible to have a discussion without either having to agree on every point or the other person getting upset then obviously this is not the place for new members to have a debate either. I am sorry, however I really do not understand your reaction, we are speculating the reproductive process of a fictional race of vampires in a fictional universe, I do not really see why you are offended that I do not agree with you on this topic, is it really so important to you that any dissonance or disagreement from another equals an insult in your eyes?

    Most doctors would disagree with you, a woman who is pregnant usually suffers fatigue, is more in danger of illness, and the last few months of pregnancy she is reduced. Pregnancy do take an enormous toll of a woman's body and there is no reason to think it would not take a toll on a Wraith. In all mammalian spices pregnancy weakens the mother, ask any biologist.

    Yes their numbers have to be kept low that is true. However think of it this way, if a hive lost three members during a culling the Queen would be weakened with pregnancy for over two years to replace them. With so few females their numbers would go constantly down, not up.


    Causes of Maternal Mortality

    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    I was one of those women, having had one pregnancy that ended in stillbirth and another in a neonatal death, from which I nearly died, due to a massive haemorrhage. I have first hand knowledge of what constitutes a viable pregnancy or not, and yes, this is a sticky subject for me.


    I don't mind that you disagree, but we're beginning to feel patronised, because you continually explain everything, and that's not necessary. We get it, your reasoning, we ain't daft.

    *shugs* Still, Wraith need to keep their numbers low, as outbreeding your prey is the short way to extinction. And as specialised feeders their number is up unless they address it.

    With regard to your assertion about pregnancy, I have searched for scholarly articles to support the claim and can't find any. Perhaps you could provide a link?

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Wasn't going to comment, but all things considered, if I'm getting this worked up about things that I'm reading, then maybe I should just get it off my chest after all.

    A few points then:

    Firstly, I freely confess that I haven't read the books yet, for a number of reasons. I resisted for a long time because I was wiggy about 'dodgy book canon.' I'd seen it happen with Pocketbooks' continunation of Star Trek: Enterprise and I was afraid it was going to happen to Stargate Atlantis. However, I do follow the blogs of both authors, and have read their considered and informative comments to their readers. I have a great deal of respect for them - except maybe when I'm already pi$$y because of my computer transforming into an iratus doorstop. Secondly, a reason I haven't read yet, is because I'm still busy writing, and try to avoid reading works that cover the same or similar ground, so as to avoid unintentional influences from said works. That said: a) What I've found as a universal given is that authors writing any body of works concerning the Wraith seems to travel frighteningly similar roads of reasoning and plot development, and I'm sorry, whichever side of the bed you're lying on regarding the Wraith, the books, and all the things being so hotly debated here, that's got to speak volumes, and b) to return to the concern about the naming of Wraith, even if it were simply a matter of making it more convenient to the writer, (which I don't believe for a second is the motivation for their naming), then unless and until YOU have tried to write a scene involving the Wraith, Haguzussa, and managed to make it coherent and unencumbered, please don't use that as some kind of veiled put down. It's incredibly difficult. I, personally, don't hold with naming them 'among themselves' in single word 'labels' and tend to go with the 'telepathic image' idea in my own writing, but I fully respect where others are coming from with regard to the 'naming of Wraith' (Hmmm, T.S. Elliot, eat your heart out).

    Next, I'd like to turn my attention, hopefully briefly, to the troubled topic of Wraith reproduction and make the following points.

    I don't think anyone is objecting to the debate, per se, Hagazussa, merely your 'I'm right and you're all wrong' condescending attitude, and like it or not, that is what comes across in your postings, sorry. You misquote, or intentionally omit parts of a quote that do not hold with your opinion when you're answering others, and then seem to get annoyed when they call you on it. You gotta roll with it, kiddo. When you do that to people, of course they're going to get upset. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.

    For my two penneth, and only briefly so as not to entangle those following my VS up in spoiler country. Wraith are far too sensual creatures /not/ to engage in physical pleasures, and what other ways would have have discovered them in the first place than from the biological imperative. My own opinion follows that certain subsets among the Wraith are cloned, certain are mass gestated, rather like the ant idea you are promoting, and others, Commanders and Queens are fully gestated to preserve individuality and genetic diversity. I believe that at such times, Queens withdraw and are heavily protected and, weakened or otherwise, gestate and birth the live young. It wouldn't be something that would be seen or experience, even by some of the more senior Wraith Commanders/Scientist, but it remains. Without boring people too much with where this thinking came from I'll simply say briefly that there was a) some speculation a while by on Malozzi's blog as to an episode that might have made the cut in season 6 had SGA not been cancelled that would have explored the concept of Wraith young and it's accociated intricacies. b) What we already know from various sources in the show about the Wraith, and c) a throwaway comment by Michael in Search and Rescue, So while the thoughts are only my opinion, they do have /some/ basis in the show's mythology/canon.

    Anyway, I think I spent more than two pennies, so... posting this now, and going to do... other things. Might read something!
    Last edited by CedrusTuri; March 14th, 2011 at 09:45 AM. Reason: fixing typo

  18. #98
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    I am currently reading Stargate Atlantis Homecoming and for the most part I love the book, I highly recommend it. There is one thing I do not like however, the Wraith are named. Now for names we have for example Bonewhite, Iron, seriously I know they are green but they are not orcs and that is what they sound like. When I hear names such as Bonewhite I begin to think, I am Bonewhite bone crusher, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg, your bones will be given to our shaman as tribute...hum...oh I was not reading Warhammer my bad.

    My main problem with the Wraith being named is that it is a major mystery in the series why the Wraith never give their names, to just name them cheapen that. Now there are a few scenes in the series where the Wraith speak amongst themselves with no humans present and they do not use names then either, they refer to one another by position in the Hive, something which is rather natural. Many societies have not used names the way we do, your name where your profession, that is why we have names like Baker or Smith today. In Japan this was even more prevalent. There is an old Japanese novel, in fact it is one of the first examples of a book being written just for entertainment, and is often called the world's first novel. This book is called The Tale of Genji and it is extremely hard to follow the story as hardly anyone is named. At the time in Japan personal names where considered so private that to even name a fictional character was not done. Everyone is referred to by position. Governor, Lady's Maid and so on, the problem is that as time go on in the fictional world people's positions in society chance, and then their description do as well and as there is no names to go by it get problematic to keep up. However back on track with my post here, it would make sense if the Wraith had something similar, they have a hive based society, the hive is everything, it would make sense that they might not even have personal names but they are Hall Guard, Commander, Dart Pilot and so on.

    Another possibility I have considered is that their names might be telepathic. A good example of telepathic names would be in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time where wolves are nearly as intelligent as humans are, they can walk people's dreams and they are telepathic. One of the main characters have the rare ability that he can speak with wolves and in the beginning grasping their names is hard, as a wolf's name might be a stretch of riverbank with paw prints in the snow a sunrise playing on the water and the sound of a fish breaking the surface. How do you translate that into words a non telepathic creature can understand?

    I am just guessing here, however what we know is that no Wraith have ever given their name, not one and there have to be a better reason than their names sounding stupid, also none of the named Wraith have minded their new names. Someone who look at names the way people do will usually be rather testy if someone try to rename them. A nickname among friends is one thing, however take various societies who have had slaves, for example America, there exist interviews with slaves and former slaves and one of the things which was mentioned as a debasement, right alongside rape and physical violence is often having their names changed. Names is important to people, allot of our identity rest on our names. However the Wraith in Stargate do not even flinch when they are given names by Sheppard, they just shrug in a oh well if you need to put such a handle on me way.

    Bottom line it seams unlikely to me that the Wraith have names the same way humans do, there have to be a reason why they are so unwilling to give their names, perhaps they can't, perhaps they do not have names as we would see it, or their names are telepathic and impossible to translate into a short, physical sound. Naming the Wraith Guide, Bonewhite and Snow is just disappointing, it just takes that great mystery and throw it out the window for convenience as it is easier to write a character who have a conventional name, and that is disappointing.

    Another thing which is disappointing is that Todd remembering back appears to have had two children with his first Queen. What? First he have a name and now he do the hubba hubba which a Queen? It is not described exactly how Wraith produce young in Stargate Atlantis but it is said that it is not done as humans do it, and it would be impossible to do it the way humans do it, there are thousands of males per one female, the female can not just get pregnant and give birth that is to slow, the race would plain die out with so few females. It is said that the Queen provide the genetic material for new Wraith, probably it works like with many insects, the Queen are fertilized once and then the males are not needed anymore other than to protect her and attend upon her. Wraith Queens do not, and I repeat do not do the hubba bubba with their Commanders and then birth them daughters and name them Snow! I feel that the authors of this book tried to much to humanize the Wraith, however that do not work, they are alien, and they should then be alien, their names and reproduction should be alien, do make them seam more human is to cheapen them.
    Wow, some of this sounds pretty terrible.

    Cute little Wraith children with cute little names, Todd's dead wife, Wraith having sex and romance like people and getting drama pregnant.

    I generally avoid novelizations/comics of the shows I watch for fear of running into things like this. I haven't even read the Farscape comics yet and those are written by the creators and generally praised by the community from what I can see.

    As far as the naming thing I can see where the need to name them in a written work might arise from. I do think it would be possible to do it without naming them so long as you were selective about how many characters you created though. It might also be possible to name only the queens/families and then refer to all the others in that way. Anyway though, that's not the part that would bug me the most as a reader.

    The unfounded assumptions about Wraith reproduction all coincidently pushing them in the obvious direction of being more human like and romantically relatable to humans is what would bother me.

    Simply cut and pasting human sexuality and emotion onto an alien species is pretty much the laziest and most boring way to do such a thing, and doing it with a hive species like the Wraith is hardly going to score you any points for believability.

    I'd be willing to buy the idea of some sort of sexual experimentation akin to the food experimentation born from their recessive human traits, likely viewed as deviant or abnormal by their larger societal norms, but full blown, "mommy, daddy, 2 children and a Labrador stuff" not buying it.

    The Wraith cloning machine made guys in tubes and required a queen to do it. Todd also mentions in some of his dialog that queens "create warriors" which strongly implies something akin to the cloning machine only on a smaller scale.

    The reason for this is simple. Look at how the cloning machine interfaces with the queen. Look at how drawn out and complicated it is. If it were true test tube style cloning like we understand it the queen's continued and prolonged presence throughout the whole process would not be required. A queen would not be required at all, only genetic material from one and possibly not even that. Once that's provided to the machine even Mckay or Zelenka could create a Wraith army for himself, despite being aliens. That's not how it works though. You need a queen, she needs to stay connected to the machine, and afterward she's sapped of strength and energy and needs to feed, despite the ZPM allegedly powering this thing.

    The queen has to sit there and operate the machine for an extended period of time and only then does it produce a bunch of Wraith drones. Her lieutenant can't jump in and operate it himself, neither can Mckay or Zelenka, only she can.

    That's their reproductive process right there folks. The cloning machine piggybacks on the natural way queens create more Wraith. The only difference is that the cloning machine vastly increases the number of offspring born from it.

    It fits with what Todd says about queens creating warriors, it fits with what Sheppard and McKay said about it likely not being sexual, it answers the question of why the cloning machine needs a queen in the first place. It even explains why those queen thrones are for in all the hiveships.

    The only thing it doesn't fit with is a need to humanize the Wraith into a potential object of romance.

    There is material in the show a writer can use to construct some sort of reasonably supportable theory about how the Wraith might make more Wraith. None of it really points in the direction this book seemingly took off in however. About the only thing that I can think of that even could is that Ellia started out as a child. That's so easy to work into the cloning machine/batch production type theory it hardly merits tossing out and ignoring all the other information in favor of making them virtually indistinguishable from humans though.

  19. #99
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    I don't mind that you disagree, but we're beginning to feel patronised, because you continually explain everything, and that's not necessary. We get it, your reasoning, we ain't daft.
    It is not meant as patronizing, it is meant as a way to debate, a way to prove a point. For example let us say that someone says there can be dangerous waves in any body of water, and I then hold up a water glass and say, really? That is not patronizing it is arguing one's point in a debate using extremely exaggerated examples. In Norway we call this putting it on the point, I do not know if it has a English name but it is a common debate technique and not one meant as an insult.

    In addition I have Aspergers syndrome, so I do not always know how much context I have to include to make my point understood, that is not an attempt to look down at someone but rather that I can not easily read unspoken social rules nor how much information I need to give to make myself understood.

    *shugs* Still, Wraith need to keep their numbers low, as outbreeding your prey is the short way to extinction. And as specialised feeders their number is up unless they address it.
    I agree Wraith have a problem with being so specialized. One of my friends like to call them panda vampires, however I still think there will be to few new Wraith by conventional pregnancy, I am not saying that you are necessarily wrong, however I am saying that for me that do not seam to be very likely.

    With regard to your assertion about pregnancy, I have searched for scholarly articles to support the claim and can't find any. Perhaps you could provide a link?
    Spoiler:
    I could go into a debate on this however since I said I have Aspergers syndrome making me not always very skilled at knowing when I step in the salad I do not feel comfortable with it after you have told me about the problems with your pregnancy as I do not want to accidentally say something that hurt you as that have never been my intention.


    b) to return to the concern about the naming of Wraith, even if it were simply a matter of making it more convenient to the writer, (which I don't believe for a second is the motivation for their naming), then unless and until YOU have tried to write a scene involving the Wraith, Haguzussa, and managed to make it coherent and unencumbered, please don't use that as some kind of veiled put down. It's incredibly difficult.
    First off all reading the link further up the thread then yes it was sort of the author's intention to name them to make it easier to write them, though I grant her that she have done allot of work in thinking out how their names would work. Secondly yes I have tried to write Wraiths, I do not publish anything I am just a hobby writer, however I do write both fanfiction and RPG adventures and I know it is difficult to work in unnamed characters. However that do not change the fact that I think it is a bit strange way to do it.

    Or to say it differently, I live with a computer programmer, I know that making a PS3 game is difficult, that do not however excuse bad graphics or wonky camera making it hard to see the character or any other flaw, nor do it make a customer with no programming skills disqualification from pointing out such flaws.

    Also a book is never, ever perfect, and speaking about a flaw, or even a element one personally do not like is not a put down of the book. However I can respect an author allot, and still speak about something I see as a flaw in their works. I respect Dog Kreig my favorite author like you would not believe, that do not mean that I can not say that I find the new chapter on the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram in the third edition of his book confusing and strangely edited. I respect Blizzard allot and Diablo 2 is my favorite computer game, however that do not mean I can not say that the ally AI in their game sucks in confined spaces, even if I could not hope to make a game as good as theirs. Respecting something do not mean one have to hold it as perfect.

    I don't think anyone is objecting to the debate, per se, Hagazussa, merely your 'I'm right and you're all wrong' condescending attitude, and like it or not, that is what comes across in your postings, sorry.
    I have repeatedly said that it is my opinion, how I see it, so I do not understand how you could read what you do out of my posts.

    You misquote, or intentionally omit parts of a quote that do not hold with your opinion when you're answering others, and then seem to get annoyed when they call you on it. You gotta roll with it, kiddo. When you do that to people, of course they're going to get upset. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.
    I have not done this. However obviously this is a forum where you have to agree or you get picked on. I am sorry if I have upset you, I will take my leave.

    Thank you all for the debate.

  20. #100
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    It is not meant as patronizing, it is meant as a way to debate, a way to prove a point. For example let us say that someone says there can be dangerous waves in any body of water, and I then hold up a water glass and say, really? That is not patronizing it is arguing one's point in a debate using extremely exaggerated examples. In Norway we call this putting it on the point, I do not know if it has a English name but it is a common debate technique and not one meant as an insult.
    I think you might be talking about Reductio ad absurdum. It's a favorite of mine to. You can have some pretty wacky fun with the stuff some people say.

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