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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JMSwallow View Post
    escyos, you are of course entitled to your opinion about the canonicity (or lack thereof) in the Stargate tie-ins, but I'm afraid what you're saying here about the production and approval process is utterly incorrect.



    Clearly, you don't know how it works. For your information;

    Fandemonium Books (and also Big Finish Productions with the audio dramas and Dynamite Entertainment with the comics) pay a fee to MGM for the official licence, and a percentage from the sales of each tie-in work.

    In return, the works created are vetted at every stage by staff at MGM's internal licencing office, who police them for editorial and continuity issues, and ensure that they synch as much as possible with the on-screen iterations of the Stargate shows.

    This is a long and involved process that can take several months and progresses through a number of cycles; initially an outline is submitted for first stage approval. These documents are typically up to 10,000 words in length, and are in no way "a little plot summary".

    This outline must be approved by MGM et al, and may require changes/rewrites; then the novel/script/comic is written, and that material passes through the same lengthy approval process (which again may require many revisions) before finally being cleared for publication.
    JM Swallow is absolutely correct.

    With Homecoming, MGM did a line by line, word by word edit, not once, but twice, in addition to the initial proposal for the Legacy series and the lengthy and specific outline for Homecoming. There is not one comma in Homecoming that has not been specifically approved by MGM.

  2. #62
    Lieutenant Colonel Isolde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by escyos View Post
    MGM has no say in Stargate, they never have (mostly) and never should, they are merely doing it for the money, not for the fans.
    I hate to burst your cosy bubble, medear, but nothing is ever done for the fans. Inevitably, all any company is interested in is making a buck outta us, the ever ready punter, and if a franchise like SG acquires 'fans' along the way, all the better for that particular mechanism to work. As for MGM having no say, I beg to differ, as they own the franchise, which means that though Brad Wright has rights over his intellecual property, they have developed the idea using their money. And there we are again, going full circle.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Isolde View Post
    I hate to burst your cosy bubble, medear, but nothing is ever done for the fans. Inevitably, all any company is interested in is making a buck outta us, the ever ready punter, and if a franchise like SG acquires 'fans' along the way, all the better for that particular mechanism to work. As for MGM having no say, I beg to differ, as they own the franchise, which means that though Brad Wright has rights over his intellecual property, they have developed the idea using their money. And there we are again, going full circle.
    i dont care anymore, just keep on being wrong, it suits you

  4. #64
    Lieutenant Colonel Isolde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by escyos View Post
    i dont care anymore, just keep on being wrong, it suits you
    Mmm, recourse in figurative hair pulling. I do love a lively debate, and this certainly isn't one. Produce an argument that indicates JMSwallow or I are incorrect and I'll consider it.

  5. #65
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Hagazussa: http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/99875.html This is Jo's personal blog, and if you go through her archive, or ask orb (who will undoubtedly have the correct links for the info), she explains many of the points you raised in your lengthy post. The names used for Wraith are linked to their telepathy, and are the idea of Melissa Scott. I tried to find her blog too, but wasn't able to, so orb will prolly have that as well.
    Thank you for the information. I will have a look at it.

    I was thinking more along the lines of WoW since I never played Warhammer. But I like their names and the names are only suppose to be a rough translation of what they call each other. Isolde put a very good link up with the author explaining alot of it.
    Then why do they not use such rough translations when they speak with humans? Guide, fair enough I could see that on Todd, but why would he be so reluctant to give that name, even if it is a rough translation?

    If the wraith are talking to each other and calling each other by name then it's not really taking away the mystery to me. It's like not they are talking to Sheppard and telling him what their names are.
    To my mind it do take away the mystery. Some group or race not using their real name, or not informing strangers of it are nothing new, it is nothing mysterious about that, it is more like oh it is a cultural thing. That the Wraith do not use names at all, that is the mystery.

    They are suppose to be partly human so I think it could be possible for them to have reproduction methods similar to humans. The show never went into detail about it. The science in the show was, as some others have called it, 'shonky' at best.
    It is possible that their reproductive organs work, just like their digestion, however I still have a problem with this, as far as information on how Wraith reproduce is concerned all we have is that it is not like humans do it, and that the Queen provide all the genetic material. Off course it could be that that a given Queen could fancy a given male, do the hubba bubba, get pregnant and have a child that way, however since it is stated in the show that this is not the case, I would like more than a two sentence afterthought if this is going to take place in a novel, I want to then have it explained as to how could this be.

    And i never mentioned getting a film, as much as i would like it, the film is the most likely continuation, instead of non-canon novels which DESTROY canon.
    I do not think the books destroy canon, they do not affect the TV series. I would personally enjoy the books a little more if some things where different, but that is a long way from them destroying the canon of the series.

    Melissa Scott's blog has a good Wraith name explanation:
    http://mescott.livejournal.com/2727.html
    Thank you for the link, very kind of you to post it for me.

    I so wish that "Halcyon" could be reprinted, BTW. I've tried writing to Fandy a few times.
    Me to, I want that book. I am considering getting it even at the collectors prices it go for.

    Oh and I am sorry, I did not mean to create a thread to argue in, I was just expressing my own views on the Homecoming book and the naming of Wraiths, nothing more.

  6. #66
    Colonel Elite Anubis Guard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by escyos View Post
    i dont care anymore, just keep on being wrong, it suits you
    Like I said in reply to a previous post from you which seems to have been deleted...don't like novels, don't come in a topic to discuss a novel you clearly haven't read.

    Stargate Destiny - Coming Again Soon

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Then why do they not use such rough translations when they speak with humans? Guide, fair enough I could see that on Todd, but why would he be so reluctant to give that name, even if it is a rough translation?
    Perhaps it's just that this rough translation wouldn't occur to them. I mean, take an everyday word such as "The". How would you explain to an alien who had no equivalent of the word "The" in their own language, what the word means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    It is possible that their reproductive organs work, just like their digestion, however I still have a problem with this, as far as information on how Wraith reproduce is concerned all we have is that it is not like humans do it, and that the Queen provide all the genetic material. Off course it could be that that a given Queen could fancy a given male, do the hubba bubba, get pregnant and have a child that way, however since it is stated in the show that this is not the case, I would like more than a two sentence afterthought if this is going to take place in a novel, I want to then have it explained as to how could this be.
    Whenever this was stated, it was stated by humans who admitted to having very little knowledge as to how the wraith worked biologically. They were just spouting off theories, it was never concrete.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by KyshaMalini View Post
    Whenever this was stated, it was stated by humans who admitted to having very little knowledge as to how the wraith worked biologically. They were just spouting off theories, it was never concrete.
    True, it is just like real life science where new discoveries make humans rethink past theories. On the show, we only witnessed one Queen creating only masked warriors this way and in a special facility, not a hive ship.
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

  9. #69
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Perhaps it's just that this rough translation wouldn't occur to them. I mean, take an everyday word such as "The". How would you explain to an alien who had no equivalent of the word "The" in their own language, what the word means?
    Well we do not have a word that translates directly to the in Norwegian so you do not have to go so far as space for that. I get your point with this, it is possible that a direct translation would not occur to them, but it still feels a bit overly simplified in the novels.

    Whenever this was stated, it was stated by humans who admitted to having very little knowledge as to how the wraith worked biologically. They were just spouting off theories, it was never concrete.
    Well there are some things supporting it, one thing is that it is a rather educated guess, another is that Todd says that hives without a Queen are vulnerable since they have no way to replenish their numbers, and then you have the whole thing with it would not work if it is done the human way. Ok there are 60 give take a few hive ships in Pegasus, each one have thousands of Wraith and one Queen, and some ships do not even have a Queen, but at best that would mean 60 females at all for the whole Wraith race. Even if they was pregnant constantly it would not be enough, it would just take to long to replenish their numbers that way.

    Remember if you only have a slight decrease in females in a race then you will see population drop like a stone, one female per many thousand, it is no way that would work. And besides none of the Queen we have seen in the series have been pregnant. I think it is far more likely their reproduction resemble that of insects when you put all the facts together.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    The only hints we got in the show about Wraith reproduction were the Queen emitting genetic material for the cloned drones and a subtle conversation between McKay and Sheppard in 'Vengenace': (taken from the GW transcripts)

    DEX: So, what? They’re tryin’ to create more Wraith?

    SHEPPARD: That doesn’t make any more sense. If they wanted to create more Wraith, wouldn’t it be easier to get a male and female to, you know, get a room?

    McKAY: It doesn’t work that way with the Wraith, alright? At least, we don’t think it does. We’re not entirely sure as to the Wraiths’ reproductive methods.

    SHEPPARD: I don’t wanna be around to watch that film.
    They just guess what's going on but they don't know for certain how Wraith reproduce.

  11. #71
    Lieutenant Colonel Isolde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Well there are some things supporting it, 1.one thing is that it is a rather educated guess, another is that 2.Todd says that hives without a Queen are vulnerable since they have no way to replenish their numbers, and then you have the whole thing with it would not work if it is done the human way. Ok there are 60 give take a few hive ships in Pegasus, each one have thousands of Wraith and one Queen, and some ships do not even have a Queen, but at best that would mean 60 females at all for the whole Wraith race. Even if they was pregnant constantly it would not be enough, it would just take to long to replenish their numbers that way.

    3.Remember if you only have a slight decrease in females in a race then you will see population drop like a stone, one female per many thousand, it is no way that would work. 4.And besides none of the Queen we have seen in the series have been pregnant. I think it is far more likely their reproduction resemble that of insects when you put all the facts together.
    OK, here goes:

    1. First it's a guess from Rodney, who clearly stated on many occasions that Biology isn't real science - remember all those instances with Carson where he ridicules him for being a doctor? He treated Jen in exactly the same way before the horrible mistake that is McKeller, so in my book that does not make him a definitive authority on anything biological. He's a twit, albeit a well meaning one.
    2. There is no doubt the drones are clones, and there is a lengthy discussion on the WDC about parthenogenesis in vertebrates, which is rare, and only occurs in a couple of reptile species on earth. Drones do not need to be reproduced sexually, but the 'blades' and 'clevermen' do, and are better for it as they have more genetic variation.
    3. You're quite correct, having so few females is a genetic choke point (Jo Graham's phrase), but this is also a technologically advanced species, who prolly know a thing or two about IVF, and surragacy. Plus Wraith have very long lives, and hibernate a lot, which allows for a great many pregnancies.
    4. Just because we haven't seen one, doesn't mean they don't exist.


    Just because the analogy for the Iratus is that they are a 'bug' does not mean it is an insect. I utterly refute that, because it is an alien creature. Also, in The Lost (I believe) Carson clearly states he was wrong about the Wraith being more Iratus than human. It's the other way round. There's more monkey than 'bug' in 'em, not that I care, because they are still HAWT!

  12. #72
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    # First it's a guess from Rodney, who clearly stated on many occasions that Biology isn't real science - remember all those instances with Carson where he ridicules him for being a doctor? He treated Jen in exactly the same way before the horrible mistake that is McKeller, so in my book that does not make him a definitive authority on anything biological. He's a twit, albeit a well meaning one.
    They also discuss Wraith reproduction at another time, and they got a fair amount of information in the end of season two, so I would still call the guess educated, however yes this is the weakest indication, I agree about that.

    You're quite correct, having so few females is a genetic choke point (Jo Graham's phrase), but this is also a technologically advanced species, who prolly know a thing or two about IVF, and surragacy. Plus Wraith have very long lives, and hibernate a lot, which allows for a great many pregnancies.
    Yes off course they do not need to reproduce as often as humans do, but still it would be to slow a reproduction, especially since they do loose allot of men in battle. And also we never, ever see a pregnant Queen. If human reproduction was to be how they did it, if they where going to have a chance in hell of reproducing fast enough that would mean the Queens would be constantly pregnant and we do not see one who are. This is the strongest indication that they do not reproduce like humans do, it just would not work.

    Just because we haven't seen one, doesn't mean they don't exist.
    Now, however we have seen actually a certain percentage of all Wraith Queens, and if they where to birth children like humans that would be in itself far, far to inefficient with so few females, and if it was to have any chance of working that means the Queens had to be pregnant allot. Now we have seen at least 6 Queens not counting Ellia and the one they find at the bottom of the sea, that is over 10 percent of all Wraith females in existence, and non of them where pregnant, that is saying something.

    Just because the analogy for the Iratus is that they are a 'bug' does not mean it is an insect. I utterly refute that, because it is an alien creature. Also, in The Lost (I believe) Carson clearly states he was wrong about the Wraith being more Iratus than human. It's the other way round. There's more monkey than 'bug' in 'em, not that I care, because they are still HAWT!
    They can be one percent bug and the rest human for all I care. I am just observing that with 60 and most likely less females they could not keep their numbers up through normal pregnancies, and especially not since none of those seen, over 10 percent of them, where not pregnant.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Now we have seen at least 6 Queens not counting Ellia and the one they find at the bottom of the sea, that is over 10 percent of all Wraith females in existence, and non of them where pregnant, that is saying something.
    Would they want to give birth in a time of great hunger and civil war though? It is one thing to make batches of grown masked warriors do go out and do the dirty battle work, but another to raise children in such conditions.
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by orbofnight View Post
    Would they want to give birth in a time of great hunger and civil war though? It is one thing to make batches of grown masked warriors do go out and do the dirty battle work, but another to raise children in such conditions.
    This is a good point. A pregnancy is a tremendous strain on the body, I guess that's true even for a Wraith. All the Queens we have seen were just woken up from hibernation and found themselves in a civil-war-like situation. They wouldn't want to weaken themselves in such a dangerous time.

  15. #75
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Would they want to give birth in a time of great hunger and civil war though? It is one thing to make batches of grown masked warriors do go out and do the dirty battle work, but another to raise children in such conditions.
    Yes I think they would as they know the losses would be great and someone have to replenish their numbers and if they have children the way humans do they know that replenishing those numbers will take allot of time, if they do it more like ants or bees do it then they might wait as then the birthing process takes less time, however if they do it like human beings then every second counts.

    Remember in any society those of privilege have to pay for it. The payment might be far less than the privilege but still, there is a reason why someone is in power. Among Wraith the sole purpose of the Queens is to replenish their numbers, they could not stop doing that when it was needed the most that would remove their purpose.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Among Wraith the sole purpose of the Queens is to replenish their numbers, they could not stop doing that when it was needed the most that would remove their purpose.
    Queens provide some other benefits, like enhanced telepathic powers to keep the ship in order and to interrogate enemies.

    After the civil war and/or after food supply becomes sustainable, the Wraith could breed all Queens for a while to ensure each hive has a Queen again to start replenishing their numbers. From how Todd described Snow giving him a daughter, the Wraith have more control over the genders of their children.
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

  17. #77
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    I still do not see it as plausible that 60 females could keep an entire race alive if they have babies the human way, I just do not see it, it is just to much of a bottleneck.

    Was not Snow the name of the daughter?

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    Was not Snow the name of the daughter?
    Interesting... There must be something about the way it is worded in the book, because others have interpreted it that way too. Looking on pages 34 and 35 of "Homecoming," it is worded ambiguously, now that I re-read it. It is clearer on page 279 when Todd recalls Snow's zenana preserving the hive, which makes Snow the Queen and mother.

    Todd's daughter's name was Alabaster, per Jo's blog.
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

  19. #79
    Chief Master Sergeant Hagazussa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    I just though it was the daughter as Todd remembers getting a daughter and right after he thinks of how gentle Snow's mind felt on his while he watched her sleep, that just made me think it was the daughter he was talking about.

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    Default Re: Wraith Names In Homecoming (very mild spoilers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagazussa View Post
    I just though it was the daughter as Todd remembers getting a daughter and right after he thinks of how gentle Snow's mind felt on his while he watched her sleep, that just made me think it was the daughter he was talking about.
    If Jo drops back by the thread, this could be useful feedback. The other example of someone with the same interpretation is here: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post12310604
    ~~~Stargate Wraith Mania Stargate Atlantis Wraith fan reference site~~~

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