So, is Young still "the man"?

[carmencatalina]

I love Young AND I think he is falling apart as a commander. And this is making me love what is going on - will he pull it all back together again? Will he totally go off the deep end first? Will he and Rush get into another knock-down fight? (Ok, that last one is sort of a gimme.)

I think we will get to watch a really interesting character arc with Young.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Petra,

I'll be honest, I've not seen enough of SG-1 to have an opinion of Gen. O'Neill. Regardless, If O'Neill let his emotions get the better of him, and there were not consequences to those losses of control then we're comparing apples and oranges (I do think it's bad writing if O'Neill lost control regularly and there were rarely poor outcomes because of his loss of control). The problem here is Young loses control and beats a fellow officer, maroons Dr. Rush, fails to snuff out the LA incursion as it starts, or neglects to take an opportunity to perhaps gain a valuable ally.

All that said I do think Young is a great character. How many times in SciFi TV have we seen someone thrust into difficult circumstances rise to the occasion and become an ubermensch always saving the day. When was the last time we had a story with a main character slowly coming apart at the seems largely because of the weight of responsibility they do not want to have?

This is a realistic portrayal of a man at the end of his rope, quite literally. It's nice to see this situation portrayed honestly and with a great deal of empathy for the person who is falling apart. It's a brave choice by the writers to take the "hero" and allow him to fail, or slowly go mad.

[tomstone]

Would I be correct in assuming that in your opinion Jack O'Neill was a good commander? Are you prepared to argue that he never made decisions - sometimes wrong decisions - based on his emotions? It happens to everyone.

You cant compare Young to O´Neill. O`Neill really wasnt the brightest one even in his best moments, but he had great skills on the field. When they ran into Trouble, it was always one of the other Team members who came up with the Ideas or stopped O´Neill from doing something fatal. So, what made him good was his ability to listen and trust his Teammembers.

And in his General days he wasnt that good of a Leader. Making a System Lord intentionally furios sure isn´t the right way to go when being Threatened. I know its his thing, but its plain stupid.

Young on the other Hand only wants Info when asked. I know that in his situation he has to maintain a clear chain of command, but he kind of became the Dictator of the Destiny. Sure, Rush jumps in every once in a while, but since Young has control over the guys with guns he is pretty much untouchable that way.

So yeah, he is the man...just self proclaimed.

[Blackhole]

Would I be correct in assuming that in your opinion Jack O'Neill was a good commander? Are you prepared to argue that he never made decisions - sometimes wrong decisions - based on his emotions? It happens to everyone.

Besides, we are not talking about his leadership as a whole, but about this particular moment when he hears that his child may be dead and his emotions get the better of him. I can't help but remember the scene from "Cold Lazarus" when Jack finds out that Sara may be in danger - he leaps out of the chair, calls her and not getting a reply runs out of the room, ignoring Hammond and his team. He's reacting emotionally, as a husband first and foremost and not as an officer. And think about his behaviour every time Charlie was brought up. I just don't get why Young should be treated differently.

There are numerous situations where O'Neill got upset but very few (if any) where he made a major bad call because of it. Young lost his ship because of poor judgment and had a mutiny staged under his watch. Granted, I though the mutiny was a bit of a dramatic contrivance but in the context of the show it was a consequence of his leadership.

Young is an interesting character. Initially, he was a poorer leader, now he is dangerously incompetent. A lot of his current supporters may feel bad for him, given everything he has had to go through. He was thrust into his command unprepared and didn't ask for it. Destiny is a thankless and very difficult command but that doesn't change the fact that the loss of his emotional control has resulted in a string of increasingly bad decisions, the latest of which cost him his ship. A competent leader doesn't loose emotional control - period. Anyone with any real world military experience realizes that this fact is axiomatic. Regardless of how difficult and stressful the circumstances are a good leader keeps a cool head. Young has been wounded with PTSD and is no longer fit for command. This doesn't mean he is not honorable nor trying his best; it means he is no longer emotionally stable and his judgment sound.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Blackhole,

And even if they aren't calm they do their best to project an impression of calm to the men and women serving around them in crisis situations. "FIX IT... NOW!" is a perfect example of what you don't do. Screaming at these people accomplishes, what, other than making it look as though Young is completely off his rocker. Heck, Park was disturbed enough to say, "Don't yell" when she gave Young bad news after the outburst.

His behavior is problematic, at best.

[garhkal]

From all our leadership courses we take, i know using threats like that, is NOT what you do to instill and keep respect.

[Gollumpus]

"Why don't we put her in charge!?"



regards,
G.

[Petra]

Petra,

I'll be honest, I've not seen enough of SG-1 to have an opinion of Gen. O'Neill. Regardless, If O'Neill let his emotions get the better of him, and there were not consequences to those losses of control then we're comparing apples and oranges (I do think it's bad writing if O'Neill lost control regularly and there were rarely poor outcomes because of his loss of control).

Fair enough. I shouldn't have assumed you were SG-1 fan too, my bad.

I can't say Jack lost control very often - indeed it was rare, and therefore it was indicative of how deeply he must have been affected by something to let his emotions speak for him. He's known for killing his own team members - his closest family - for the "greater good". But we aren't - or at least I'm not - talking about Jack and Young's leadership in the series. I'm talking about one specific scene in one episode of season 2 (not 1!). I joined this discussion to point out that IMO Young's attack on Dannick was caused by his paternal feelings and it was a reaction of a father-to-be, not commander. I also pointed out that in similar situation Jack, by far a better commander, reacted exactly the same - as a father and husband, not AF officer. That's all.

The problem here is Young loses control and beats a fellow officer, maroons Dr. Rush, fails to snuff out the LA incursion as it starts, or neglects to take an opportunity to perhaps gain a valuable ally.

All of the above happened in season 1, not Intervention, so I'm not sure what's the relevance of bringing it up. Are you arguing that Young is emotional and makes bad decisions? Hell, yes, he is and he does. That's why he's my my 2nd fave character. That's why he's so fascinating to watch. I'm not arguing otherwise, I'm not trying to prove that he's the best commander ever. He isn't. My point is, IMO his attack on Dannick shouldn't be used as the evidence to back up that claim because it wasn't about command. It was personal, it was an action of a desperate man and not colonel in charge. For me it's simply in a different category. Soldiers are still humans, you know.

All that said I do think Young is a great character. How many times in SciFi TV have we seen someone thrust into difficult circumstances rise to the occasion and become an ubermensch always saving the day. When was the last time we had a story with a main character slowly coming apart at the seems largely because of the weight of responsibility they do not want to have?

Exactly. There are plenty of mad scientists and mad geniuses in sci-fi, but military commanders slowly losing it are hard to come by.

Hey, looks like we are in total agreement! Young rocks!

You cant compare Young to O´Neill. O`Neill really wasnt the brightest one even in his best moments, but he had great skills on the field. When they ran into Trouble, it was always one of the other Team members who came up with the Ideas or stopped O´Neill from doing something fatal. So, what made him good was his ability to listen and trust his Teammembers.

I don't usually ask people "Have you even watched the show?" because I believe it's rude and condescending, but honestly, I'm at a loss here how else to react. You and I watched completely different versions of "Stagate SG-1", that's for sure. I find your claims so weird that I don't even know where to start.

He "wasn't the brightest one even in his best moments"? You know that the fact that he wasn't as smart as Sam, Daniel and Jonas doesn't prove much, because 99% of humanity isn't as smart? Although in his 'best moments" he had Ancient knowledge in his head so he easily beat both Sam and Daniel at the same time when it came to smarts. For that matter, dummies don't get promoted to full birds, period. All in all, he was smart enough to figure out how to turn System Lords against each other in Fair Game. Or to figure out that the plant was a culprit in Paradise Lost. Or to see right through Ketano. Or to reinstall Hammond in Chain Reaction. Or..okay, Ill stop here because this is getting silly.

Also, when the team run into trouble, they got out of it thanks to teamwork and contributions of each team member, not because Jack obediently did what he was told by Daniel/Sam/Teal'c. I seem to recall him giving an awful lot of ideas on how to get out of the mess and the rest of the team working out the details (off the top of my head, Redemption anyone?) and even Sam asking him about his ideas, because she finds them useful. And please, give me some examples of when Jack had to be stopped because he was about to do "something fatal"? Please? Funny I don't recall anything of the sort. Well, apart from TOS and RS, but they were special cases.

And in his General days he wasnt that good of a Leader. Making a System Lord intentionally furios sure isn´t the right way to go when being Threatened. I know its his thing, but its plain stupid.

I'm assuming you are talking about Baal in Zero Hour and Reckoning. You do realise that you just called "stupid" a strategy that was 100% successful in both cases? Insulting Baal in ZH bought Jack just enough time to figure out how to beat snake-head at his own game and save Earth (note that he figured it out on his own, not because his team told him what to do ), insulting Baal in Reckoning was part of the plan to buy Teal'c some time, of which he informed Jacob, btw. As I said, his plan worked perfectly. Really, if that means he's not a good leader than I'll pray for all the leaders in the world to become equally "not good".

Young on the other Hand only wants Info when asked. I know that in his situation he has to maintain a clear chain of command, but he kind of became the Dictator of the Destiny. Sure, Rush jumps in every once in a while, but since Young has control over the guys with guns he is pretty much untouchable that way.

Self-proclaimed dictator of the Destiny? What? what the heck are you talking about? Young is in command of the people onboard the Destiny because they are the same people he was in charge of on Icarus Base. Change of geographical location doesn't mean that the command structure magically disappears. And if you recall, O'Neill told him specifically in "Earth": "You are in command". He stays in command untill he's relieved of it, period.

There are numerous situations where O'Neill got upset but very few (if any) where he made a major bad call because of it. Young lost his ship because of poor judgment and had a mutiny staged under his watch. Granted, I though the mutiny was a bit of a dramatic contrivance but in the context of the show it was a consequence of his leadership.

True. Then again, Jack was evidently one of the best commanders in the AF, as evidenced by the fact he still hasn't retired and reached the rank of Lt General, which is no small feat. Young otoh is portrayed as an officer struggling with demands of his job, not dealing well the stress, who believes he doesn't cut it anymore. It doesn't change the fact that when things got very personal for both of them - personal as in concerning their respective wives or kids - they reacted pretty much the same. And if so, can it be taken as an evidence of lack of leadership skills? I don't think so.

Again, I'm not argueing that Young is a great leader, but that his attack on Dannick doesn't prove it at all. I think if Jack/Cam/Shep were in his shoes they'd react the same. *shrug*

A competent leader doesn't loose emotional control - period. Anyone with any real world military experience realizes that this fact is axiomatic. Regardless of how difficult and stressful the circumstances are a good leader keeps a cool head.

Interestingly, I read an interview today with one of our soldiers fighting in Iraq and the guy kept repeating that the general public, the civilians, see soldiers as these emotionless killing machines and how unfair it is, since soldiers have feelings too and these feelings sometimes get the better of them despite the training.

Honestly, if news that his lover and his child may be dead and those responsible are standing right in front of him didn't make Young do something emotional and stupid, then I'd be worried.

Young has been wounded with PTSD and is no longer fit for command. This doesn't mean he is not honorable nor trying his best; it means he is no longer emotionally stable and his judgment sound.

I can agree with that.

[Blackhole]

Blackhole,

And even if they aren't calm they do their best to project an impression of calm to the men and women serving around them in crisis situations. "FIX IT... NOW!" is a perfect example of what you don't do. Screaming at these people accomplishes, what, other than making it look as though Young is completely off his rocker. Heck, Park was disturbed enough to say, "Don't yell" when she gave Young bad news after the outburst.

His behavior is problematic, at best.

I see it exactly the same way.

[Lahela]

I think the point is that nobody is "the man". There is no one on the ship who would slot into that ideal team leader role, no one who is hero enough to step up and carry the weight of the mission on their shoulders, but lots of people who do their damnedest. Of course, there will be times when their damnedest is just not enough, but they all try their damnedest nonetheless.

[akren]

I think there will be some tension between Young & Telford given the fact that Telford, & not Rush, was supposed to lead the team that went to Destiny in the 1st place. However, consider Young has 'established' himself somewhat as the 'leader' of the group will cause for some tensions, & Telford's guilt over what he did when he was brainwashed for the Lucian Alliance will get in the way of him possibly leading the group & stepping up into that role.

Given that we have seen from the promo's that Young turns into a drunkard & goes to a every dark place (we see him drinking & crying alone in his qaurters on the promo & drinking by himself again towards the end of Intervetion) & we have yet to see the long term ramifications of the fall out from the Alliance's incursion onto Destiny, T.J. loosing their child, etc; I am convinced that Young is going to implode/explode & there is going to be some tensions there (maybe even Scott stepping up to take a more leadership role if Telford can't & Young becomes unable to lead). Given the dynamics on the ship already, as well as the new dynamics yet to be seen now the Alliance party members are on board; things are definately not looking good for Young atm.

[garhkal]

I would find it ironic if telford actually turns out to be the more stable one with how he seemed to eggg on young when he was spiteful and banging his wife...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

garhkal,

Well, he had been brainwashed. I still think it would be a better story if Telford went willingly to the LA.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Telford is the man .

In Telford We Trust