Camile Wray is delusional!

[Nemises]

Does she really think the LA came onboard to negotiate ?

They want destiny and will kill everyone if they have to.

[Coronach]

I assume you think hostage negotiators in real life are delusional as well?

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I think that Wray is like a lot of people who have been relatively sheltered from violence, or military decisions. She seems like one of those people that really do believe that you can sit down and talk to everyone and that everyone must understand and defer to her believed authority. Telford's eyeroll at Wray's explanation of civilian rule over the military and how Young would take it seems to sum up how other people that are more in a position to judge what's really going on see things. I'm hoping that at some point Wray opens her eyes. Maybe the fact that she knows what she;s doing is actually helping Young, rather than being yet another bid for power, is stepping towards that? I think Wrat likely can't wrap her head around the idea that she could very well be killed, much the way some people will continue to get into dangerous situations because they simply can't see how dangerous it is.

Edited to add: I don't think hostage negotiotions are delusional, I just think that Wray hasn't really grasped how serious the situation is.

[JustAnotherVoice]

I assume you think hostage negotiators in real life are delusional as well?

Theres a difference between negotiating with panicked, desperate people who want a way out and a PMC with no exit strategy other than death to all those in their way.

Given our knowledge of the Lucian Alliance, Wray is hopelessly optimistic if she hopes to talk them down.

[Coronach]

Theres a difference between hostage negotiators who want more than total control and a PMC with no exit strategy other than death to all those in their way.

Given our knowledge of the Lucian Alliance, Wray is hopelessly optimistic if she hopes to talk them down.

She doesn't, though. All she's done so far is act as a mediator in a hostage exchange...which is why I brought the example up. Sure, she'll probably try and negotiate further things after that and we can argue for 35+ pages about how awful and useless she is/isn't, but it hasn't happened yet and what she has done so far (obviously with Young's approval) is pretty typical of hostage situations.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

She doesn't, though. All she's done so far is act as a mediator in a hostage exchange...which is why I brought the example up. Sure, she'll probably try and negotiate further things after that and we can argue for 35+ pages about how awful and useless she is/isn't, but it hasn't happened yet and what she has done so far (obviously with Young's approval) is pretty typical of hostage situations.

I don't believe that she's useless at all and, if I look at her efforts as more buying Young time and less trying to actually accomplish something concrete, I do believe she's quite useful. She's presented the idea that negotions, at least on some scale, are possible. Hostage negotiators don't necessarily go out looking for total agreement; it's more a matter of getting you to agree to something small and working from there. I think Young's smart to use her/let her do this, as it gives him another option if need be. What's gladdening to me is that she's actually working with Young, instead of at cross purposes. Let's see how long that lasts.

[Coronach]

I don't believe that she's useless at all and, if I look at her efforts as more buying Young time and less trying to actually accomplish something concrete, I do believe she's quite useful. She's presented the idea that negotions, at least on some scale, are possible. Hostage negotiators don't necessarily go out looking for total agreement; it's more a matter of getting you to agree to something small and working from there. I think Young's smart to use her/let her do this, as it gives him another option if need be. What's gladdening to me is that she's actually working with Young, instead of at cross purposes. Let's see how long that lasts.

Oh, and I totally agree. The exchange of 4 hostages from each side is small in the scheme of things, but it's better than NOT getting those 4 people back. While Camille may be a bit naive in these types of situations, I cannot see how she's "delusional" for (as of yet) trying to negotiate an even trade. At least this way if Young decides to vent their compartments, they lose 4 less of their own people.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Oh, and I totally agree. The exchange of 4 hostages from each side is small in the scheme of things, but it's better than NOT getting those 4 people back. While Camille may be a bit naive in these types of situations, I cannot see how she's "delusional" for (as of yet) trying to negotiate an even trade. At least this way if Young decides to vent their compartments, they lose 4 less of their own people.

I believe 'delusional' is a poor choice of word. Naive, definitely, but not delusional.

[Blackhole]

I think that Wray is like a lot of people who have been relatively sheltered from violence, or military decisions. She seems like one of those people that really do believe that you can sit down and talk to everyone and that everyone must understand and defer to her believed authority. Telford's eyeroll at Wray's explanation of civilian rule over the military and how Young would take it seems to sum up how other people that are more in a position to judge what's really going on see things. I'm hoping that at some point Wray opens her eyes. Maybe the fact that she knows what she;s doing is actually helping Young, rather than being yet another bid for power, is stepping towards that? I think Wrat likely can't wrap her head around the idea that she could very well be killed, much the way some people will continue to get into dangerous situations because they simply can't see how dangerous it is.

Edited to add: I don't think hostage negotiotions are delusional, I just think that Wray hasn't really grasped how serious the situation is.

I agree, Wray is somewhat naïve; but I also think she has grown a serious pair and is quite courageous. Given that she was nearly killed by Greer in the prior episode; a petite, five foot nothing woman who is willing to confront both Young and especially Greer in a direct physical fashion and then offers to negotiate with the LA shows some serious cajones as far as I am concerned. I might not think her approach has any chance of success but I definitely admire her bravery.

Young probably realizes that it buys him some time if he lets her try and I can’t but think he might not like Wray’s meddling but can’t but respect her conviction and courage.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

i always think of that one little line from the fifth element when bruce willis' character goes into the one and kills the alien leader with one shot and he's like "anyone else wanna negoiate?" i would love to have seen scott or young go in there and just shoot kiva in the head.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I agree, Wray is somewhat naïve; but I also think she has grown a serious pair and is quite courageous. Given that she was nearly killed by Greer in the prior episode; a petite, five foot nothing woman who is willing to confront both Young and especially Greer in a direct physical fashion and then offers to negotiate with the LA shows some serious cajones as far as I am concerned. I might not think her approach has any chance of success but I definitely admire her bravery. Young probably realizes that it buys him some time if he lets her try.

Wray definitely has a set of brass balls on her, no doubt there, which only makes me hope more that she ends up more solidly behind Young after this

[JustAnotherVoice]

She doesn't, though. All she's done so far is act as a mediator in a hostage exchange...which is why I brought the example up. Sure, she'll probably try and negotiate further things after that and we can argue for 35+ pages about how awful and useless she is/isn't, but it hasn't happened yet and what she has done so far (obviously with Young's approval) is pretty typical of hostage situations.

Hostage negotiators go in with the end goal of talking the situation down, trying to resolve the issue with words (promises of safe passage, compromises within reason etc). They only resort to dynamic finishes when all else has failed. Wray stated up front that the dynamic approach had failed.

The hostage exchange is the first part of trying to talk the situation down - a sign of good faith on the negotiator's part. She clearly states that she wants to "act as an intermediary to resolve the issue without further bloodshed" which really sounds like she is trying to talk them down. The problem with this is that Wray can't talk them down without screwing herself over. Kiva has no exit strategy other than death or total control.

Young approves, from the way I saw the scene, because it buys him and Telford time to make their move, not because he believes she could actually get them to put their guns down.

[Blackhole]

Wray definitely has a set of brass balls on her, no doubt there, which only makes me hope more that she ends up more solidly behind Young after this

I agree. Any really good commander may not like people like Wray and others that challenge his decisions but have to realize that they are necessary to keep him on his toes and will in the long run make for a better running ship. I don't know if Young is yet that caliber of commander but I would like to think he will become one.

[blackluster]

The hostage exchange is the first part of trying to talk the situation down - a sign of good faith on the negotiator's part. She clearly states that she wants to "act as an intermediary to resolve the issue without further bloodshed" which really sounds like she is trying to talk them down. The problem with this is that Wray can't talk them down without screwing herself over. Kiva has no exit strategy other than death or total control.

How the hell do they know that unless they talk to the woman for crying out loud. That is specifically why Wray speaking up then was so important. If she can figure out what they want or how far their intentions go then that is the beginning of the solution, because they sure as heck aren't going anywhere and running in guns blazing isn't the best solution in the case regardless of what the gung ho mentality would suggest.

[Nemises]

i always think of that one little line from the fifth element when bruce willis' character goes into the one and kills the alien leader with one shot and he's like "anyone wanna negoiate?" i would love to have seen scott or young go in there and just shoot kiva in the head.

+1
Seconded
Agreed
This