When torture is right

[Demerzel]

Demerzel,



I disagree. This is not about semantics. It's about what lines you think it is okay to cross in the name of saving "innocent lives." If you are willing to allow innocents to be tortured to save other innocents I would find that rather ironic given that the justification for the torture of innocents is the protection of innocent lives.

How do you know the person being tortured is innocent? Why did you assume we knew the information beforehand? If we did, torture wouldn't be needed. We're talking about terrorists here. Not the use of torture on a victim that may or may not be guilty. That was never the point. Once more, considering the US government only recruits its very best and elite operatives for the few units that could come across those situations, I trust they'd know the right thing to do. Not the moral thing. The right thing.

Asking ME that question is not a good idea. I am pro atomic bomb, pro death penalty, and if you asked me, terrorists would have no right whatsoever, they'd have less rights than my cat. I am not officer material, nor am I the most moral person ever. So if needed, I'd go pretty darn far. Good thing I'll never be in that kind of situation or have that kind of authority.

[Demerzel]

ok, let's make it simple. I would torture terrorist's family in order to break him so he would reveal informations I need to save a city or my country. I still don't have any problem with it.

I can so imagine what Ser Scot's answer to that will be.

[g.o.d]

I can so imagine what Ser Scot's answer to that will be.

yeah, me too

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Demerzel,

How do you know the person being tortured is innocent? Why did you assume we knew the information beforehand? If we did, torture wouldn't be needed. We're talking about terrorists here. Not the use of torture on a victim that may or may not be guilty. That was never the point. Once more, considering the US government only recruits its very best and elite operatives for the few units that could come across those situations, I trust they'd know the right thing to do. Not the moral thing. The right thing.

Argument to authority. Wonderful fallacy. Look you are presuming they've got the right guy. I'm saying that is never certian. To make the presumption they have the right guy is absurd. You have to assume they will make mistakes, even experts are human, that such mistakes will result in innocents being tortured and possibly polluting the intellegence gathered with bad information.

Torture does not work to get intellegence. It works to get the person being tortured to say what the interrogator wants them to say. There is no way to know, without knowing what this person knows beforehand, that the person being tortured isn't lieing for a variety of reasons. Hence my position that torture is of no value as a means to gather intellegence.

Asking ME that question is not a good idea. I am pro atomic bomb, pro death penalty, and if you asked me, terrorists would have no right whatsoever, they'd have less rights than my cat. I am not officer material, nor am I the most moral person ever. So if needed, I'd go pretty darn far. Good thing I'll never be in that kind of situation or have that kind of authority.

Either we all have rights or they can be taken away at the whim of Government. Hence, I believe terrorists do have rights.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

g.o.d.,

ok, let's make it simple. I would torture terrorist's family in order to break him so he would reveal informations I need to save a city or my country. I still don't have any problem with it.

So, innocent lives have value, but not enough value to stop them from being tortured, despite the fact they are innocent?

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

g.o.d.,



So, innocent lives have value, but not enough value to stop them from being tortured, despite the fact they are innocent?

if only I could green you for that...offers cookies

[Demerzel]

g.o.d.,



So, innocent lives have value, but not enough value to stop them from being tortured, despite the fact they are innocent?

I'm going to stop debating with someone who thinks the lives of terrorists are worth more than those they are trying to kill. I'm done answering your posts before I get downright rude.

[Demerzel]

Pacifist socialists unite. You guys can all hold hands, sing songs and hug trees while the bad guys destroy civilization and everything you hold dear. I'm sure it'll convince them to stop. =)

[g.o.d]

g.o.d.,



So, innocent lives have value, but not enough value to stop them from being tortured, despite the fact they are innocent?

what are you talking about? I value the western civilisation more than f.e. somalian or arabic. Look, I'm not one of those people who believe all cultures are equal, heck they don't even share same beliefs or moral standards. In order to preserve the western civilisation(even though it's very flawed) I would sacrifice another. You can call me racist, I don't care.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Demerzel,

I'm going to stop debating with someone who thinks the lives of terrorists are worth more than those they are trying to kill. I'm done answering your posts before I get downright rude.

We aren't talking about terrorists anymore. We're talking about innocent family members of terrorists. Additionally, you can't know, with certianty, a terrorist has the information you want to torture them to obtain. Therefore, why torture in the first place. It is a waste of time.

[eta]

Being against torture does not mean I'm a pacifist. My whole point is that I think torture is a waste of time in addition to being immoral.

g.o.d.

what are you talking about? I value the western civilisation more than f.e. somalian or arabic. Look, I'm not one of those people who believe all cultures are equal, heck they don't even share same beliefs or moral standards. In order to preserve the western civilisation(even though it's very flawed) I would sacrifice another. You can call me racist, I don't care.

Not everyone who is Somalian or Arab is a terrorist. There are innocents among them. The family members of terrorists don't share their guilt by being members of that family. I'm saying if you value innocent life then being willing to torture innocents because of who's family they happen to belong to is extremely contradictory.

[Demerzel]

what are you talking about? I value the western civilisation more than f.e. somalian or arabic. Look, I'm not one of those people who believe all cultures are equal, heck they don't even share same beliefs or moral standards. In order to preserve the western civilisation(even though it's very flawed) I would sacrifice another. You can call me racist, I don't care.

I can't green you, but I'll say that while most people would never admit what you just said, I'm sure a lot of people would quietly agree. I certainly value the lives of my family and friends more than some random foreign family. And hell, I'm not even a patriot in any way. But ever since my best friend lost her uncle in the WTC tragedy and then watched her sink deeply into depression and worse, and after serving in the army, I have ZERO tolerance or pity for terrorists and what happens to them when they get caught. They attack our freedom and OUR rights. Why should we give them any rights whatsoever? We know laws protect criminals who don't care about those laws. And while that might be moral, its WRONG. That's why the world, with all its laws, is going straight to hell and everything is going worse and worse every single day.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Demerzel,

I can't green you, but I'll say that while most people would never admit what you just said, I'm sure a lot of people would quietly agree. I certainly value the lives of my family and friends more than some random foreign family. And hell, I'm not even a patriot in any way. But ever since my best friend lost her uncle in the WTC tragedy and then watched her sink deeply into depression and worse, and after serving in the army, I have ZERO tolerance or pity for terrorists and what happens to them when they get caught. They attack our freedom and OUR rights. Why should we give them any rights whatsoever? We know laws protect criminals who don't care about those laws. And while that might be moral, its WRONG. That's why the world, with all its laws, is going straight to hell and everything is going worse and worse every single day.

So, if you are accused of being a terrorist you should lose your rights and be subject to torture?

[Demerzel]

Demerzel,



We aren't talking about terrorists anymore. We're talking about innocent family members of terrorists. Additionally, you can't know, with certianty, a terrorist has the information you want to torture them to obtain. Therefore, why torture in the first place. It is a waste of time.

[eta]

Being against torture does not mean I'm a pacifist. My whole point is that I think torture is a waste of time in addition to being immoral.

g.o.d.



Not everyone who is Somalian or Arab is a terrorist. There are innocents among them. The family members of terrorists don't share their guilt by being members of that family. I'm saying if you value innocent life then being willing to torture innocents because of who's family they happen to belong to is extremely contradictory.

No no. YOU were talking about innocent family members of terrorists in an attempt to make torture sound even more evil so as to prove your point, I never got into your little attempt at moral high ground. Why not ask me if I'd torture a 2 year old child and hope it can talk so it can reveal what I want to hear?

[Demerzel]

Demerzel,



So, if you are accused of being a terrorist you should lose your rights and be subject to torture?

Son, do you think the US military randomly tortures people they aren't pretty sure are guilty? With all the mistakes made, the death penalty is still legal in some states, and God knows people got executed before and it was later learned they were innocent. If tortured, hell, at least you're still alive. And yet some people have clearly said that outright murder is better and more moral than torture, such as Xxxevilgrinxxx.

[g.o.d]

D My whole point is that I think torture is a waste of time in addition to being immoral.

if it would be a waste of time, people wouldn't use it in the first place