For all the people who complained that under no circumstances is torturing a prisoner acceptable... I hope "Incursion, Part 1" proved that you were mistaken. Had they not tortured Telford, everyone on that ship would most-likely be dead or suffering even further losses. Young knew what he had to do and he did it, and he no doubt saved many innocent lives in doing so.
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When torture is right
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You have to be damn careful when you do torture, and Young still made missteps here. He didn't tell anyone why he was doing it. A simple "If he's brainwashed, this will break him out of it; I don't plan to let him die, but I need you to act like you think I will."
Torture should be against the rules, but if someone feels it's the only option to save lives, they can risk their career on it. If I was dead sure someone knew something and torture was the only way, and I knew I'd be locked up if I did it... I'd do it anyway. Torture should never be "okay" according to the rules, because that is ripe for abuse. Let men of strong character decide only when they fully accept the consequences of the act.
Because what we have in the US, is damn scary. You could be plucked off the street, declared an enemy combatant (and thus have no rights) and tortured... even if you know nothing. Why? Because torture is allowed, and there is no accountability.
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Originally posted by Kaiphantom View PostYou have to be damn careful when you do torture, and Young still made missteps here. He didn't tell anyone why he was doing it. A simple "If he's brainwashed, this will break him out of it; I don't plan to let him die, but I need you to act like you think I will."
Torture should be against the rules, but if someone feels it's the only option to save lives, they can risk their career on it. If I was dead sure someone knew something and torture was the only way, and I knew I'd be locked up if I did it... I'd do it anyway. Torture should never be "okay" according to the rules, because that is ripe for abuse. Let men of strong character only when they fully accept the consequences of the act.Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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Originally posted by Kaiphantom View PostYou have to be damn careful when you do torture, and Young still made missteps here. He didn't tell anyone why he was doing it. A simple "If he's brainwashed, this will break him out of it; I don't plan to let him die, but I need you to act like you think I will."
Torture should be against the rules, but if someone feels it's the only option to save lives, they can risk their career on it. If I was dead sure someone knew something and torture was the only way, and I knew I'd be locked up if I did it... I'd do it anyway. Torture should never be "okay" according to the rules, because that is ripe for abuse. Let men of strong character only when they fully accept the consequences of the act.
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Originally posted by s09119 View PostBut why does he need to tell anyone? He's the commanding officer, that's all that matters... he knew what he was doing and that's that. The fact is he was absolutely right in doing what he did.
That's why Wray said he had rights. The true test of a man's principles, is whether he applies them equally to friend and foe alike.
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Originally posted by Kaiphantom View PostThat's incredibly dangerous speech right there, because you aren't thinking through what you're saying. Whenever you imagine someone having those powers, you always think of the bad guy. Now imagine someone having those, who is a bad guy. Are you okay with a bad guy torturing people? Because *every* power granted to people of authority can and has been been abused. Imagine you are innocent and it's happening to you; what recourse is there? He's the guy in charge and you're being accused.
That's why Wray said he had rights. The true test of a man's principles, is whether he applies them equally to friend and foe alike.Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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Originally posted by s09119 View PostNo, I am thinking through what I'm saying, but thank you for saying otherwise. Unless the order being given is an illegal one, subordinates cannot question or disobey their superiors. What Young was doing not only made sense given the situation, but was authorized by the highest authority in their chain of command himself. There was nothing wrong or "dangerous" about the situation except Wray not liking that she was left out of the loop and automatically assuming the worst. Had she and Scott read all the files SG personnel are supposed to, they would have realized what was going on, too. Just because Young didn't tell them, whatever his reasons, does not give them the right to question the one in charge. Especially when they're only in the dark because they didn't do the required reading.
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Except:
1. This is a fictional television show and claiming it proves anything about the real world is absurd as claiming "24" proves torture works.
2. Torture did NOT even work in this fictional universe. Telford did not disclose any information while being tortured. He disclosed the information after being killed and revived to erase the alien brainwashing. When this applies in the real world, we can talk about it. Until then, see point #1.
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Originally posted by BadOnion View PostExcept:
1. This is a fictional television show and claiming it proves anything about the real world is absurd as claiming "24" proves torture works.
2. Torture did NOT even work in this fictional universe. Telford did not disclose any information while being tortured. He disclosed the information after being killed and revived to erase the alien brainwashing. When this applies in the real world, we can talk about it. Until then, see point #1.
2. You're missing the point. Young's torture only began when he started venting atmosphere, nothing else he did was anything but interrogation (Telford attacked him, remember). The torture's whole point was to undo the brainwashing, nothing more. Just because the goal wasn't solely to get information doesn't mean it didn't work.
Originally posted by tNsRAoL View PostYou can't use fictional situations and apply it to the real world.
Torture is never acceptable in the real world.Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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Originally posted by s09119 View PostFor all the people who complained that under no circumstances is torturing a prisoner acceptable... I hope "Incursion, Part 1" proved that you were mistaken. Had they not tortured Telford, everyone on that ship would most-likely be dead or suffering even further losses. Young knew what he had to do and he did it, and he no doubt saved many innocent lives in doing so.
If anything, this episode proved just how useless torture really is. Telford did not break under the duress, and even after he'd apparently come to his senses, he didn't give them enough information to stop the invasion.
So not only did Young commit a monstrous crime, it also produced no tangible results."A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life
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Originally posted by DigiFluid View PostThis is unequivocally, 110% wrong.
If anything, this episode proved just how useless torture really is. Telford did not break under the duress, and even after he'd apparently come to his senses, he didn't give them enough information to stop the invasion.
So not only did Young commit a monstrous crime, it also produced no tangible results.Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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