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Telford's torture illegal in U.S.?

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    Telford's torture illegal in U.S.?

    i know this is all happening on Destiny far far away, but would Jack O'Neill allow such a thing happen on Earth? and what does this say about the military's morals? if they are gonna start torturing suspects then whats stopping them from doing it again and again?
    personally, i condone what Col. Young is doing because hes doing this to save lives and there is no other way to get Telford to talk, i mean, he has no one to care for ----- oh threatening his loved ones would be worse right?
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    #2
    Seriously, do we need another thread about this? There's already a 30 page thread discussing the rights and wrongs of torture.

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      #3
      because they couldnt trust anyone.

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        #4
        i figure the other thread is discussing the rights and wrongs in the stargate universe, but not according to real life.
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          #5
          Trust me, the other thread has gone way outside the SG universe and has defintely got into the real world considerations of torture.

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            #6
            Meh. Anybody else all meh about torture? Anybody?
            ~ When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take back the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that BURNS YOUR HOUSE DOWN! ~

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              #7
              you might have a point. but i find the whole torture scene to be disturbing because A) its not something we are used to seeing in a stargate show B) US military doesnt condone torture so there are laws broken here C) Jack ordering Young to continue the torture.
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                #8
                Many times, O'Neill him self was eager to beat the crap out of Harry Maybourne, Senator Robert Kinsey, Colonel Frank Simmons and many others, even tried and shooted some. If his superiors had allowed he would have gone there. Now Jack is an General, and he is dealing with an enemy, not an inocent person(ok he could be under influence of brain washing, but it has not been confirmed). They have no alternative such as the Tok'ra memory recall to learn where the Lucian Alliance is besides forcebly confession, and the best way is torture.

                I too condone the general's actions, now Telford is the enemy and has to be treated as one. Beat the crap out of him and get the location of the lucian base. Torture is not human but killing is. What weird paradox humans are, dont you think.
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Duneknight View Post
                  you might have a point. but i find the whole torture scene to be disturbing because A) its not something we are used to seeing in a stargate show B) US military doesnt condone torture so there are laws broken here C) Jack ordering Young to continue the torture.
                  A) That makes from SGU mature show. B) It's TV show. I'm not American so I'm not sure, but president Obama has forbidden waterboarding, hasn't he? We probably have president Hayes in SG universe, and there's no word he has forbidden torture too... C) What should have he done? It was desperate situation and desperate situations need desperate actions...but of course that's only my opinion...

                  They are coming...Smurfs!

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                    #10
                    another thread, really?
                    Do you really think that no suspect ever got roughed up in the US? Never got threatened? And yes, the other thread stopped talking about the events taking place in Subversion a long time ago.

                    To answer your question, would it be illegal? Of course it's illegal. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't happen all the time, by police, by intelligence and yes, by the military. Morals? It's a convenient fiction for the most part, an ideal, but don't kid yourself that it's a fact. Should we get to a time where we no longer engage in torture? Yes. Will we? No.
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                      #11
                      In principle the US military does not condone torture but with Destiny they did not have the option to send the suspect to the CIA or Egypt. Rules don't have to be broken, just go around them. But seriously it's the same thing, just appeasing the public.

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                        #12
                        I hope that someone reported this thread and it will get merged with the main one. In the meantime...

                        Originally posted by Duneknight View Post
                        you might have a point. but i find the whole torture scene to be disturbing because A) its not something we are used to seeing in a stargate show B) US military doesnt condone torture so there are laws broken here C) Jack ordering Young to continue the torture.
                        I'm sure it was covered about a milion times on the Torture thread and the Greater Good thread, but since you haven't read them:

                        A) torture is something we are not used to seeing in a stargate show? Really? Really? I hate playing "have you even watched the show" card, but, seriously. Dude. Every time a Goa'uld used a ribbon device on someone, s/he tortured that person. Every time some Replicator put its hand into someone's head it tortured that person. Heck, you can argue that a mere act of taking/being a host was torture. And then you have all the instances of very graphic and brutal torture with painsticks in many episodes, zatting people (which was explained as "causing a great deal of pain" and "electrocution" - tell me it's not torture), drugging them to get information, and finally Jack's torture in Abyss and Teal'c's in too many episodes to count, starting from The Serpent's Venom. And you are telling me that torture was not present in the previous series?! I'd say that it was the other way around: it was so common that apparently you stopped noticing it.

                        B) Of course there are laws broken here - but the laws are broken all the time, both in RL and in the Stargate universe. And as others said, the fact that the military doesn't condone torture officialy doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

                        C) Okay, firstly, "continue"? So when did the torture start in your opinion? Because IMO the only thing that can be called torture was venting the atmosphere - everything that happened earlier was a normal, quite civilised in fact, interrogation. If you mean the beating Telford got - it wasn't administred, he himself attacked Young so it in no way counts as torture or even part of the interrogation. So, Jack's order wasn't to continue but rather to start (but what his order to "take it to the next level" really meant is debatable anyway).

                        Secondly, assuming he did order to start torture - why does it surprise you? As it also has been pointed out in the other 2 threads, Jack's background is Black Ops. Illegal ops. During the course of the series Jack murdered people in cold blood, threatened to kill and maim, kidnapped one child and confessed to doing "damn distasteful things" prior to the Stargate program. Maybourne hinted all the time that Jack's hands are really dirty. Condoning torture fits with it.
                        There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Petra View Post

                          A) torture is something we are not used to seeing in a stargate show? Really? Really? I hate playing "have you even watched the show" card, but, seriously. Dude. Every time a Goa'uld used a ribbon device on someone, s/he tortured that person. Every time some Replicator put its hand into someone's head it tortured that person. Heck, you can argue that a mere act of taking/being a host was torture. And then you have all the instances of very graphic and brutal torture with painsticks in many episodes, zatting people (which was explained as "causing a great deal of pain" and "electrocution" - tell me it's not torture), drugging them to get information, and finally Jack's torture in Abyss and Teal'c's in too many episodes to count, starting from The Serpent's Venom. And you are telling me that torture was not present in the previous series?! I'd say that it was the other way around: it was so common that apparently you stopped noticing it.
                          i meant Taur'i torturing evil bad guys.

                          Originally posted by Petra View Post
                          B) Of course there are laws broken here - but the laws are broken all the time, both in RL and in the Stargate universe. And as others said, the fact that the military doesn't condone torture officialy doesn't mean it doesn't happen...

                          ...C) Okay, firstly, "continue"? So when did the torture start in your opinion? Because IMO the only thing that can be called torture was venting the atmosphere - everything that happened earlier was a normal, quite civilised in fact, interrogation. If you mean the beating Telford got - it wasn't administred, he himself attacked Young so it in no way counts as torture or even part of the interrogation. So, Jack's order wasn't to continue but rather to start (but what his order to "take it to the next level" really meant is debatable anyway).
                          yes, when it happens in real life, it doesnt happen in front of a General! maybe thats why he left the room. i meant venting the atmosphere, that might not be Jack Bauer style torture but its definitely something that will send a military guy to prison.


                          Originally posted by Petra View Post
                          Secondly, assuming he did order to start torture - why does it surprise you? As it also has been pointed out in the other 2 threads, Jack's background is Black Ops. Illegal ops. During the course of the series Jack murdered people in cold blood, threatened to kill and maim, kidnapped one child and confessed to doing "damn distasteful things" prior to the Stargate program. Maybourne hinted all the time that Jack's hands are really dirty. Condoning torture fits with it.
                          i dont know if HWC is the same as black ops, but Jack didnt torture Apophis when he had the chance for instance.
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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Duneknight View Post
                            i meant Taur'i torturing evil bad guys.



                            yes, when it happens in real life, it doesnt happen in front of a General! maybe thats why he left the room. i meant venting the atmosphere, that might not be Jack Bauer style torture but its definitely something that will send a military guy to prison.




                            i dont know if HWC is the same as black ops, but Jack didnt torture Apophis when he had the chance for instance.
                            Sheppard tortured a wraith to death, tortured Caldwell, and Weir authorized him and Ronon to torture Kavanaugh.

                            as for Apophis was surrounded by medical personnel, indeed Dr Fraiser pretty much vetoed it when Teal’c suggested they withdraw all pain medication. On the other hand O’Neill was happy to use a zat to torture Klorel. In the same ep as Apophis is in earths hands, O'Neill after all the trouble he causes by fleeing to earth says he just should have shot him. So O'Neill is also advocating the shooting of unarmed surrending prisoners, at least in this case.

                            O’Neill is not above using deeply unpleasant measures to get what he wants, his humour and personality is a bit of a front, which hides the fact that the man has quite a vicious streak and is no stranger to doing whatever it takes to achieve his objectives.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Duneknight View Post
                              i dont know if HWC is the same as black ops, but Jack didnt torture Apophis when he had the chance for instance.
                              It's as Black as Black gets. Not "Black" as is bad, "black" as is hidden from the public view so their actions don't effect elections and foreign affairs. Black as if all references to their actions get sucked up into a black hole. A secret off planet force known only to a few political leaders and the select family members of people working for it. When in the real world it is a controversial to put up defenses against a rouge missile which goes sub orbital to deliver its warhead.

                              Because we don't like secrets from our governments who work for us and represent us as we are free people we immediately think the black operator broke all the rules and the CIA/KGB ect. raped little children because he was on a black op. Not just that a political leader wanted plausibly deniability for the black operation itself.

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