Destiny must have self repair.

[Krazeh]

That is the things though, everything important is still working, nothing has actually failed, in all those millions of years. All the redundancies are still in place, not one major system has had to switch to a backup. Not one drive, not a single one, has failed.

You've been onboard then? And inspected each system in great detail? If not I don't see how you can make any claims that systems have not resorted to redundancies and/or backup systems in order to keep operating.

All those holes in the skin, yet not one lucky shot that actually disabled anything important. You just are not seeing it here.

Frankly it'd be terribly badly designed if a lucky shot was capable of disabling a vital system.

Millions of years. Too long for nothing important to fail. If you cannot accept that, I do not see what your interest is in this discussion.

As has previously been stated, there's been several examples of Ancient technology lasting millions of years without failure. I mean they managed to find a stargate and DHD in Antartica that was millions and millions of years old and apart from being low on power was working fine, that's seriously robust technology. As for my interest in this discussion, i'm interested to see if you can actually manage to put forward some compelling evidence for the existence of your theorised self repair system that stands up to scrutiny. So far you've not produced anything but there's always hope.

[kwlafayette]

I'd just like to say something that I don't think has been said in this thread yet.
If the Ancients used any kind of self repair technologies on their ships then surely they would be used all of the time.
Just because you have a crew, that's no reason not to have a self repair system.
If you want to talk about logic and what would make logical sense, then it would be to have your ship and all of your ships be capable of repairing themselves all of the time, not just when they're unmanned because then the vessel's crews can concentrate on more important things like their mission, tasks which the ship was built to accomplish.

If a self repair system was present on Destiny then surely Rush, Eli or some other member of the crew would have mentioned it.
As much as it makes sense for Destiny to have such a system, it simply hasn't been mentioned, until the system is mentioned then we don't know if it has one.

You fail to take into account expense. Why didn't the Ancients make all city ships? Why didn't Atlantis have a ZPM factory, and a drone factory? Why wasn't every puddle jumper equipped with shields, stasis modules, and intergalactic hyper-drives? Just because you have a technology, does not mean it is desirable or feasible to include it in every single thing you build.

That is entirely reasonable, but as I mentioned before, it just doesn't make sense that everything important is still in operation after millions of years. It is simply impossible, given the laws of probabilities. No matter how small a chance you assign to a drive module failure, the vastness of time that has passed means that at least one drive module should have failed before now. I made up some numbers before, a billionth of a percent chance of failure doubling every 100,00 years; I think we can all agree that is eye poppingly robust. Yet after 5 million years, even that small chance has grown to the point where it is impossible that there has not been a single failure (and the Destiny could be as much as 50 million years old).

If they had gated aboard, and been confronted with a situation where they were down to 2 or 3 of the original 16 drive modules, multiple shield generators had failed, you know, actual failures in critical systems, then you can make the case for no self repair. But 100% of critical systems were in operation. There is just no way to make that work without some repairs being done, and the database does say the Ancients were never aboard. Self repair seems more likely than some benevolent alien race setting Destiny right, and just leaving it to continue on its way.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

You fail to take into account expense. Why didn't the Ancients make all city ships? Why didn't Atlantis have a ZPM factory, and a drone factory? Why wasn't every puddle jumper equipped with shields, stasis modules, and intergalactic hyper-drives? Just because you have a technology, does not mean it is desirable or feasible to include it in every single thing you build.

What expense?
The only expense the Ancients would have is the cost of resources, which to them would be almost limitless, considering they had access to an entire galaxy.

What I said makes sense, you cannot deny that.
If you have a system on your ship, that can free people from doing something they never have to then you put it in place on every ship, city or facility you can, it just makes sense plain and simple.
Cost is not an issue for such an advanced race as the Ancients, it shouldn't be an issue for us in the real world if we used our technology with any degree of intelligence.

BTW a self repair system is useful in all situations where your ships could encounter damage, especially when out in space or anywhere so your argument doesn't really make sense here my friend.

That is entirely reasonable, but as I mentioned before, it just doesn't make sense that everything important is still in operation after millions of years. It is simply impossible, given the laws of probabilities. No matter how small a chance you assign to a drive module failure, the vastness of time that has passed means that at least one drive module should have failed before now. I made up some numbers before, a billionth of a percent chance of failure doubling every 100,00 years; I think we can all agree that is eye poppingly robust. Yet after 5 million years, even that small chance has grown to the point where it is impossible that there has not been a single failure (and the Destiny could be as much as 50 million years old).

If they had gated aboard, and been confronted with a situation where they were down to 2 or 3 of the original 16 drive modules, multiple shield generators had failed, you know, actual failures in critical systems, then you can make the case for no self repair. But 100% of critical systems were in operation. There is just no way to make that work without some repairs being done, and the database does say the Ancients were never aboard. Self repair seems more likely than some benevolent alien race setting Destiny right, and just leaving it to continue on its way.

You fail to understand what I wrote in my last post.
I'll re-write it so you don't have to go back up the page, coz I'm nice and poilite like that.

We haven't been told Destiny has a self repair system, so we don't know whether or not it has one.
We have also not been told other pieces of equally old Ancient technologies have self repair capabilities, we just haven't been told, so we don't know with any digree of accuracy that they do or do not have them.

If you use probability you could say anything is possible given enough time, I don't deny probabilities, but we haven't been told Destiny has what you say it has, I don't even recall TPTB mentioning such a system.
If you decide to reply to my post please read it carefully before posting.

[kwlafayette]

You've been onboard then? And inspected each system in great detail? If not I don't see how you can make any claims that systems have not resorted to redundancies and/or backup systems in order to keep operating.



Frankly it'd be terribly badly designed if a lucky shot was capable of disabling a vital system.



As has previously been stated, there's been several examples of Ancient technology lasting millions of years without failure. I mean they managed to find a stargate and DHD in Antartica that was millions and millions of years old and apart from being low on power was working fine, that's seriously robust technology. As for my interest in this discussion, i'm interested to see if you can actually manage to put forward some compelling evidence for the existence of your theorised self repair system that stands up to scrutiny. So far you've not produced anything but there's always hope.

So you are making the argument that this is the most complex device the Ancients ever built, and that all other devices, being simpler, will last at least as long as gates and DHDs. I don't buy that argument. There is no example of Ancient technology the complexity and age of Destiny (save Destiny itself) that is still functioning.

[Mike.]

You fail to take into account expense.

What expense ? A self repair system practically pays for itself. The truth is that their technology was so robust that they didn't need one. It's a core element of the show present form the get-go. The show also tells us that they never incorporated something like this into any of their tech (or even used it on a mass scale).

That is entirely reasonable, but as I mentioned before, it just doesn't make sense that everything important is still in operation after millions of years. It is simply impossible, given the laws of probabilities. No matter how small a chance you assign to a drive module failure, the vastness of time that has passed means that at least one drive module should have failed before now. I made up some numbers before, a billionth of a percent chance of failure doubling every 100,00 years; I think we can all agree that is eye poppingly robust. Yet after 5 million years, even that small chance has grown to the point where it is impossible that there has not been a single failure (and the Destiny could be as much as 50 million years old).

If they had gated aboard, and been confronted with a situation where they were down to 2 or 3 of the original 16 drive modules, multiple shield generators had failed, you know, actual failures in critical systems, then you can make the case for no self repair. But 100% of critical systems were in operation. There is just no way to make that work without some repairs being done, and the database does say the Ancients were never aboard. Self repair seems more likely than some benevolent alien race setting Destiny right, and just leaving it to continue on its way.

Your made-up statistics are irrelevant, and without any sort of evidence to back them up. They even directly contradict show canon. Ancient tech has been shown plenty of times that it is incredibly resilient. It doesn't decay like ours does, and the materials are super strong (don't turn to dust after millions of years) and barely show some discoloration. To top it off it's protected by (normally) impenetrable shields.
- Stargates last millions of years - the one in Antarctica was at least 50 million years old and still operational.
- all the original communication stones - still worked fine and they may be even older than any stargate
- the Dakara "weapon" was still fully functional with an intact powersource,
- the Repositories of Knowledge - still fine. With power.
- the gate destroyer used by Anubis - Ancient tech and still operational, power source intact, shield...,
- all the tech Merlin left - it still works,
- Atlantis in top condition, the only damage ever caused was from lack of power to properly maintain the shield.

That's just how it is, putting your fingers in your ears, coming up with bogus numbers or trying to invent scenarios that don't have any sort of precedent doesn't help your argument.

Why do you refuse to face reality (of the show) ?

[kwlafayette]

Well Rise, suffice it to say I disagree with you. I look at the probabilities, the sheer age of Destiny, and I say you can conclude with near absolute certainty that the ship simply would no longer exist without repairs having been made at some point.

Sure, you can compare communications stones or DHDs to the complexity of Destiny. I do not think those are valid comparisons.

[Krazeh]

Well Rise, suffice it to say I disagree with you. I look at the probabilities, the sheer age of Destiny, and I say you can conclude with near absolute certainty that the ship simply would no longer exist without repairs having been made at some point.

Only if you disregard previously established canon. You seem to be forgetting that this is sci-fi and by it's very nature not everything follows the same rules as you would expect in the real world. So yeah, in the real world it might not be possible to create anything that lasts anywhere as near as long as the Destiny has but that has no impact on the feasibility of such an situation in the SG universe.

Sure, you can compare communications stones or DHDs to the complexity of Destiny. I do not think those are valid comparisons.

Wow, what a surprise that you wouldn't consider evidence that pokes holes in your claims to be a valid comparison. I must say i'm amused that you consider stargates to be less complex than anything else on the Destiny, less the onboard stargate i'd assume. Obviously a device that can create a wormhole through spacetime, dematerialise objects (both organic and inorganic, and of seemingly any complexity), transmit it through the wormhole and rematerialise it perfectly on the other end is a perfectly simple device and so much less complex than things like computers or engines. No doubt it's obvious simplicity is what allows it to last 50+ million years and still function perfectly while the computers on the Destiny would need constant repair to remain operational.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Well Rise, suffice it to say I disagree with you. I look at the probabilities, the sheer age of Destiny, and I say you can conclude with near absolute certainty that the ship simply would no longer exist without repairs having been made at some point.

Sure, you can compare communications stones or DHDs to the complexity of Destiny. I do not think those are valid comparisons.

How can you disagree with the fact that such a system has never been mentioned or shown on the show?
Probabilities are one thing, but when you start saying such a device or group of devices that would make up the ship's self repair function have been shown which is what you are saying when you disagree with my post, well that's ridiculous.
We've never seen what you claim exists, in my world and the world of many other gateworlders who have posted here that is what's known as Fanon.

There's no evidence besides the ship lasting a long time in the emptyness of space.
I would like to point out that I've never said the ship doesn't have a self repair function, so all you're disagreeing with is my openness to possibilities that it could or couldn't have one.

TBH I expected the ship to have a self repair function, but it doesn't hurt my ego or anything that it hasn't been shown to have one.
No skin off my nose either way.

[Krazeh]

While we're at it, let's not forget the fact that the Ancients were already a space faring race before they even came up with the idea of stargates and would appear to have had reached the stage where their ships could travel between galaxies. As such stargates would be a newer technology than things like shields, computers and FTL drives so it's unlikely that they would be a less complex piece of technology.

Oh and on the point of the robustness of Ancient devices the Ark of Truth managed to survive the devastation caused by the launch of an Ancient vessel, the subsequent collapse of a mountain and the passage of millions upon millions of years. None of this had any impact on it's ability to function flawlessly when it was found by SG1.

[Puddle-Jumper]

Every couple hundred thousand years or so, works out to be maybe 15 to 20 advanced alien races attacking the ship over time. You factor in navigation hazards, like possibly encountering the shockwave of a super nova, rogue asteroids, comet, any kind of unknown hazard that you would get traveling through space that was not completely charted. Needing to refuel, but having to use a star that was less than ideal (say, a star that had entered the helium burning stage). Something like that has probably happened at least a dozen or so times. Being stranded without the power for shields, waiting for momentum to carry you to the nearest star, this scenario has been strongly hinted at, the ship would be very vulnerable. The damage would build up over time.

Not to mention, the most likely reason to attack the ship is to try to gain control of it, so the most likely targets are the engines and engineering sections of the ship. Attacks by advanced alien races would not just be on random areas of the ship; they would go after critical systems. And if 15 to 20 advanced alien races had all been attacking the same areas of the ship, how is it that all 16 drive modules have survived up until this point?

I know that many of you want to believe in unicorns and magic ships crewed by faeries made by perfect beings who had perfect designs and built things that lasted forever, but given the ratings of the show, you are clearly in the minority. Things have to make sense. And being in space for 5 million years, with all 16 of your original drive modules working, and navigation working, and shields working, and only superficial damage to the hull, that does not make sense. I can safely say that the majority of potential viewers are with me; if they were with you, SGU would be getting great ratings wouldn't it?

PS. There is that assertion again, about what the Ancients intended. You really have to stop with that. There are at least two problems with that statement. One, you do not know what the Ancients intended. And second, "this long" is completely subjective, it has no objective meaning. "this long" could mean 10 minutes, or 4.99 million years after launch. "this long" could mean that the Ancients originally intended to board it only 15 minutes before the humans did, but ascended before then. Nowhere, in any episode, have they been able to determine why the Destiny was launched, or the exact time/place the Ancients intended Destiny to be when they were going to come aboard.

I just wish people would stop making that statement, there is no basis for it.

15 - 20 races sure, but as we've seen with the blues, you'd need to be extremely advanced to breach destinys shields.. if Destiny was at full capacity Id say its pretty likely that it could hold its own against the wraith, the replicators, maybe even the ori... infact at the moment at 40% capacity Destiny can withstand an attack from the blues for quite a while (Space, Divided) without any major damage..

Supernova's are pretty rare... infact extremely rare.. Rogue asteroids would be factored in by the data given by the seeder ship, and Destiny has its own sensors.. and Space isn't full of dangerous things floating about trying to kill you, its actually mostly (almost entirely) empty.. hence the name space...

And well.. in this argument against you we can really say anything we like can't we.. There has never been any mention of a self-repair system, and given its been said on a few occasions that the ship is falling apart and bearly functioning yet you still think there is... On that basis Im going to argue that... Atlantis was in the future was captured by Sith, who travelled back in time, to capture the Destiny, but accidentally shrunk Atlantis and its in the chair room, and Franklin was shrunk down to the city and now he's learning the way of the force... Can you understand how that rediculous and crazy theory is just as valid as yours?

The ship is without a doubt extremely damaged, like really really really damaged... infact most of the systems are barely functioning... Rush and co. are constantly repairing those systems... The universe is not full of threats around every solar systems trying to kill you, its almost entirely empty.. and its very very possible that Destiny could have went a million years without getting any damage whatsoever.

And we can make some assumptions about when the ancients planned to board it. For example Ive been going on the fact that the people who designed it and built it would want to see it in action, so the ancients would plan to board it sometime within their own lifetime (which Im sure would have been considerable longer then ours) so from that Im estimating that the ancients intended to board Destiny after a few hundred years, without a doubt less than a thousand years... also if they waited longer then that, the technology aboard the Destiny would have more then likely been totally outdated, and perhaps even incompatible with the tech they were using at the time.
See how I made a logical assumption that is possible, though not known for sure, and not contradicted by established canon in the show?

[kwlafayette]

How can you disagree with the fact that such a system has never been mentioned or shown on the show?
Probabilities are one thing, but when you start saying such a device or group of devices that would make up the ship's self repair function have been shown which is what you are saying when you disagree with my post, well that's ridiculous.
We've never seen what you claim exists, in my world and the world of many other gateworlders who have posted here that is what's known as Fanon.

There's no evidence besides the ship lasting a long time in the emptyness of space.
I would like to point out that I've never said the ship doesn't have a self repair function, so all you're disagreeing with is my openness to possibilities that it could or couldn't have one.

TBH I expected the ship to have a self repair function, but it doesn't hurt my ego or anything that it hasn't been shown to have one.
No skin off my nose either way.

Worm hole drive was never mentioned before that one season of Atlantis. Destiny was never mentioned in either of the other two shows. Just because they have not talked about something yet does not mean they are afraid to invent it on a whim.

For me, without self repair, the show will be over. It was kind of fun, for while, having magical devices appear in the other two series, but that is old hat now. I would prefer if they went in a more realistic direction. And realism requires that instead of relying on magical indestructibility, they rely on something a bit more believable.

[kwlafayette]

15 - 20 races sure, but as we've seen with the blues, you'd need to be extremely advanced to breach destinys shields.. if Destiny was at full capacity Id say its pretty likely that it could hold its own against the wraith, the replicators, maybe even the ori... infact at the moment at 40% capacity Destiny can withstand an attack from the blues for quite a while (Space, Divided) without any major damage..

Supernova's are pretty rare... infact extremely rare.. Rogue asteroids would be factored in by the data given by the seeder ship, and Destiny has its own sensors.. and Space isn't full of dangerous things floating about trying to kill you, its actually mostly (almost entirely) empty.. hence the name space...

And well.. in this argument against you we can really say anything we like can't we.. There has never been any mention of a self-repair system, and given its been said on a few occasions that the ship is falling apart and bearly functioning yet you still think there is... On that basis Im going to argue that... Atlantis was in the future was captured by Sith, who travelled back in time, to capture the Destiny, but accidentally shrunk Atlantis and its in the chair room, and Franklin was shrunk down to the city and now he's learning the way of the force... Can you understand how that rediculous and crazy theory is just as valid as yours?

The ship is without a doubt extremely damaged, like really really really damaged... infact most of the systems are barely functioning... Rush and co. are constantly repairing those systems... The universe is not full of threats around every solar systems trying to kill you, its almost entirely empty.. and its very very possible that Destiny could have went a million years without getting any damage whatsoever.

And we can make some assumptions about when the ancients planned to board it. For example Ive been going on the fact that the people who designed it and built it would want to see it in action, so the ancients would plan to board it sometime within their own lifetime (which Im sure would have been considerable longer then ours) so from that Im estimating that the ancients intended to board Destiny after a few hundred years, without a doubt less than a thousand years... also if they waited longer then that, the technology aboard the Destiny would have more then likely been totally outdated, and perhaps even incompatible with the tech they were using at the time.
See how I made a logical assumption that is possible, though not known for sure, and not contradicted by established canon in the show?

50 million years is really a long time though, isn't it?

[kwlafayette]

While we're at it, let's not forget the fact that the Ancients were already a space faring race before they even came up with the idea of stargates and would appear to have had reached the stage where their ships could travel between galaxies. As such stargates would be a newer technology than things like shields, computers and FTL drives so it's unlikely that they would be a less complex piece of technology.

Oh and on the point of the robustness of Ancient devices the Ark of Truth managed to survive the devastation caused by the launch of an Ancient vessel, the subsequent collapse of a mountain and the passage of millions upon millions of years. None of this had any impact on it's ability to function flawlessly when it was found by SG1.

As I said, magical devices were fun for a time. But hasn't that show long since been canceled? Do you think maybe the regular appearance of magical devices, like the arc of truth, had anything to do with that? Seems like this show, they are purposefully trying to avoid that kind of thing.

[Puddle-Jumper]

50 million years is really a long time though, isn't it?

And space is really really big (Hypothetically... its infinite) and almost all of that large area is a vaccum, yet you think that everytime that Destiny drops out of FTL some one or thing is there attacking it.. if something drifts through a vaccum for a million years.. it doesn't get damaged, and ancient technology isn't prone to degradation like ours..

and you can't ignore stargate canon just because it doesn't fit in with your view of the ancients as per SGU, ancient technology is freakin amazing, thats established.. in all the shows

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Worm hole drive was never mentioned before that one season of Atlantis. Destiny was never mentioned in either of the other two shows. Just because they have not talked about something yet does not mean they are afraid to invent it on a whim.

For me, without self repair, the show will be over. It was kind of fun, for while, having magical devices appear in the other two series, but that is old hat now. I would prefer if they went in a more realistic direction. And realism requires that instead of relying on magical indestructibility, they rely on something a bit more believable.

There's only one way you're gonna get the proof you need to win this argument.
You need to ask Joe Malozzi or some other show writer if Destiny has a self repair system.
Until you get some answer you'll have to say you don't know, because like the rest of us, you do not know, see how easy that was to admit I don't know.


BTW whether or not Destiny has a self repair system is not integral to the plot, the characters are and since this is a character driven show and not a technology driven one it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

TBH I could believe it either way, like others have said Destiny has sensors to avoid danger or contact with potential threats, the fact that other pieces of Ancient tech have been in one place makes it more likely that they would get damaged beyond functioning, Destiny is constantly moving around, it's like you playing the lottery if you keep changing your numbers you're less likely to win the jackpot, but if you stick with same numbers eventually you'll win.
I agree with Puddle Jumper about the whole vastness of space thing.
I also agree Ancient tech has been shown to be made of made up and really tough materials that seem to last forever, so traditional wear and tear is unlikely, even given the amount of time Destiny has been out there it's not unthinkable it's survived for as long as it has without help.