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  1. #81
    Major Puddle-Jumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    kwlafayette I really think your assuming that Destiny is in constant danger, which it more then likely isn't... if it weren't for the blue aliens shooting at it and trying to get aboard and the crew messing with stuff... the ship wouldn't have had any problems since the crew came aboard, its far more logical to assume that the ship doesn't have self repair and mining capability (since it doesnt have these) and only comes across an advanced space faring race that wants to attack it every couple of hundred thousand years or so.

    If you look at it from a probability point of view, theres the odds of a galaxy containing an advanced race, which are pretty low Id say, then theres the odds of one of their ships being in exactly the right place at exactly the right time, which given the size of a galaxy is pretty slim, infact the blues finding it and keeping on tracking it is literally a 1 in a billion chance. The MW and pegasus are full of life sure (because of the ancients), but from what we've seen of SGU other galaxies aren't like this...

    Aside from that, the seeder ships are sending information back to Destiny regarding its course, Destiny also has its own sensors, so something that can damage the ship just popping in its way (like faith) is once again about a 1 in a billion chance..

    Infact Destiny may have only sustained a small amount of damage once every 500,000 years or so.. or all of the damage could have been from 1 encounter.. I can completely see why you think the ancients should have put an auto repair on Destiny, but the ancients didn't mean the leave it uninhabited for this long, no where near this long, they may have only meant it for a couple of hundred years, and again, the odds of Destiny running across an extremely advanced civilisation that want to blow it up in that time are slim to none.
    I dunno what to put in here now..

  2. #82
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puddle-Jumper View Post
    kwlafayette I really think your assuming that Destiny is in constant danger, which it more then likely isn't... if it weren't for the blue aliens shooting at it and trying to get aboard and the crew messing with stuff... the ship wouldn't have had any problems since the crew came aboard, its far more logical to assume that the ship doesn't have self repair and mining capability (since it doesnt have these) and only comes across an advanced space faring race that wants to attack it every couple of hundred thousand years or so.

    If you look at it from a probability point of view, theres the odds of a galaxy containing an advanced race, which are pretty low Id say, then theres the odds of one of their ships being in exactly the right place at exactly the right time, which given the size of a galaxy is pretty slim, infact the blues finding it and keeping on tracking it is literally a 1 in a billion chance. The MW and pegasus are full of life sure (because of the ancients), but from what we've seen of SGU other galaxies aren't like this...

    Aside from that, the seeder ships are sending information back to Destiny regarding its course, Destiny also has its own sensors, so something that can damage the ship just popping in its way (like faith) is once again about a 1 in a billion chance..

    Infact Destiny may have only sustained a small amount of damage once every 500,000 years or so.. or all of the damage could have been from 1 encounter.. I can completely see why you think the ancients should have put an auto repair on Destiny, but the ancients didn't mean the leave it uninhabited for this long, no where near this long, they may have only meant it for a couple of hundred years, and again, the odds of Destiny running across an extremely advanced civilisation that want to blow it up in that time are slim to none.
    Every couple hundred thousand years or so, works out to be maybe 15 to 20 advanced alien races attacking the ship over time. You factor in navigation hazards, like possibly encountering the shockwave of a super nova, rogue asteroids, comet, any kind of unknown hazard that you would get traveling through space that was not completely charted. Needing to refuel, but having to use a star that was less than ideal (say, a star that had entered the helium burning stage). Something like that has probably happened at least a dozen or so times. Being stranded without the power for shields, waiting for momentum to carry you to the nearest star, this scenario has been strongly hinted at, the ship would be very vulnerable. The damage would build up over time.

    Not to mention, the most likely reason to attack the ship is to try to gain control of it, so the most likely targets are the engines and engineering sections of the ship. Attacks by advanced alien races would not just be on random areas of the ship; they would go after critical systems. And if 15 to 20 advanced alien races had all been attacking the same areas of the ship, how is it that all 16 drive modules have survived up until this point?

    I know that many of you want to believe in unicorns and magic ships crewed by faeries made by perfect beings who had perfect designs and built things that lasted forever, but given the ratings of the show, you are clearly in the minority. Things have to make sense. And being in space for 5 million years, with all 16 of your original drive modules working, and navigation working, and shields working, and only superficial damage to the hull, that does not make sense. I can safely say that the majority of potential viewers are with me; if they were with you, SGU would be getting great ratings wouldn't it?

    PS. There is that assertion again, about what the Ancients intended. You really have to stop with that. There are at least two problems with that statement. One, you do not know what the Ancients intended. And second, "this long" is completely subjective, it has no objective meaning. "this long" could mean 10 minutes, or 4.99 million years after launch. "this long" could mean that the Ancients originally intended to board it only 15 minutes before the humans did, but ascended before then. Nowhere, in any episode, have they been able to determine why the Destiny was launched, or the exact time/place the Ancients intended Destiny to be when they were going to come aboard.

    I just wish people would stop making that statement, there is no basis for it.
    Last edited by kwlafayette; June 1st, 2010 at 12:35 AM.

  3. #83
    Lieutenant Colonel xxxevilgrinxxx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Every couple hundred thousand years or so, works out to be maybe 15 to 20 advanced alien races attacking the ship over time. You factor in navigation hazards, like possibly encountering the shockwave of a super nova, rogue asteroids, comet, any kind of unknown hazard that you would get traveling through space that was not completely charted. Needing to refuel, but having to use a star that was less than ideal (say, a star that had entered the helium burning stage). Something like that has probably happened at least a dozen or so times. Being stranded without the power for shields, waiting for momentum to carry you to the nearest star, this scenario has been strongly hinted at, the ship would be very vulnerable. The damage would build up over time.

    Not to mention, the most likely reason to attack the ship is to try to gain control of it, so the most likely targets are the engines and engineering sections of the ship. Attacks by advanced alien races would not just be on random areas of the ship; they would go after critical systems. And if 15 to 20 advanced alien races had all been attacking the same areas of the ship, how is it that all 16 drive modules have survived up until this point?

    I know that many of you want to believe in unicorns and magic ships crewed by faeries made by perfect beings who had perfect designs and built things that lasted forever, but given the ratings of the show, you are clearly in the minority. Things have to make sense. And being in space for 5 million years, with all 16 of your original drive modules working, and navigation working, and shields working, and only superficial damage to the hull, that does not make sense. I can safely say that the majority of potential viewers are with me; if they were with you, SGU would be getting great ratings wouldn't it?

    PS. There is that assertion again, about what the Ancients intended. You really have to stop with that. There are at least two problems with that statement. One, you do not know what the Ancients intended. And second, "this long" is completely subjective, it has no objective meaning. "this long" could mean 10 minutes, or 4.99 million years after launch. "this long" could mean that the Ancients originally intended to board it only 15 minutes before the humans did, but ascended before then. Nowhere, in any episode, have they been able to determine why the Destiny was launched, or the exact time/place the Ancients intended Destiny to be when they were going to come aboard.

    I just wish people would stop making that statement, there is no basis for it.
    It's interesting that you should use this (in bold) considering that your very argument that Destiny 'must' have automated repair, or does have this that or the next thing, without it being shown, because, without these things being shown as part of canon, it's you that are believing in magical fairies and unicorns. Which is perfectly fine. If you want to believe these things, that's okay. I have a pet theory that the ship is sentient, but it's just that, a pet theory. I don't try to pass it off as a definite fact and treat people as though they're stupid because they don't happen to agree with me. Perhaps you should try doing the same. As for your second point (again, in bold): Neither do you. And further, given your belief in all sorts of things that haven't been shown in canon, I'd suggest you may not be the one to ask if someone wanted to know about what they may have intended.



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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    I get it, I know you believe in magical indestructible ships. Can you please just leave this one thread for those of us who want to discuss more realistic scenarios?

    You can say the Ancients intended to board the ship. There is evidence to support that. You cannot say when the Ancients intended to do this, because frankly there has been no hint.

    All these arguments I hear, that since the Ancients didn't put self repair on everything, that they must not have had that technology. Well, the Ancients didn't put intergalactic hyperdrives on everything either, this should point you in the direction of your logical fallacy. They did not put stasis pods on the Atlantis puddle jumpers either. There is not a communication stone under the cushion of every seat.

    Again, go and start your own magical indestructible ship built by perfect beings thread, and I promise I won't come and pollute it, OK? There you can talk about technologically advanced alien races, who had everything save for sensor technology, and had to literally be in the path of the ship to find it. You can talk about how the ship survived a dozen attacks over the years, and nothing important was ever damaged, because the Ancients couldn't build a life support system that would last a decade, but the drives, well those are a perfect design made with perfect materials, and perfectly assembled without flaw by perfect beings, and they never fail.

    Go ahead, get your ideas out there. I am sure you will find people to agree with you, and you can go and be happy, and stop worrying about this.

  5. #85
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    I get it, I know you believe in magical indestructible ships. Can you please just leave this one thread for those of us who want to discuss more realistic scenarios?
    I don't think anyone's said the Destiny's a magical indestructible ship. It clearly isn't given the state of disrepair it's in. All people have said is that the Destiny is far more robust than you seem to want to give it credit for. As for discussing 'realistic scenarios' they have to be realistic in the sense they're consistent with the rules of the environment in which you're discussing said scenario; inventing new technologies and disregarding anything that has been previously shown but disagrees with what you think should happen is not discussing realistic scenarios. To be perfectly honest if you don't like having holes poked in your theories then perhaps you shouldn't post them on a public forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    You can say the Ancients intended to board the ship. There is evidence to support that. You cannot say when the Ancients intended to do this, because frankly there has been no hint.
    Actually there have been hints, both given in the show and outside of the show in Q&As with the creators. All of which point in the direction that the Ancients meant to board the Destiny a long time ago but that the project was abandoned before that happened. I will however happily concede that we don't have any specifics on the exact time period in which the Ancients originally intended the Destiny to remain unmanned.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    All these arguments I hear, that since the Ancients didn't put self repair on everything, that they must not have had that technology. Well, the Ancients didn't put intergalactic hyperdrives on everything either, this should point you in the direction of your logical fallacy. They did not put stasis pods on the Atlantis puddle jumpers either. There is not a communication stone under the cushion of every seat.
    I fail to see how the Ancients not putting a self repair system on anything we have yet seen is in anyway comparable to them not putting intergalactic hyperdrives on all their vessels, or statis pods on puddle jumpers, or communication stones under every cushion. We have been given clear examples that these technologies exist and are used where appropriate, we haven't however been provided with any in-universe evidence that the Ancients ever built or used self-repair systems on any of their creations. The only logical fallacy here is your belief that the Ancients not putting all their known technologies on every thing they create can be used as an argument for proving previously unseen and, to this point completely unmentioned, technologies exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Again, go and start your own magical indestructible ship built by perfect beings thread, and I promise I won't come and pollute it, OK? There you can talk about technologically advanced alien races, who had everything save for sensor technology, and had to literally be in the path of the ship to find it. You can talk about how the ship survived a dozen attacks over the years, and nothing important was ever damaged, because the Ancients couldn't build a life support system that would last a decade, but the drives, well those are a perfect design made with perfect materials, and perfectly assembled without flaw by perfect beings, and they never fail.

    Go ahead, get your ideas out there. I am sure you will find people to agree with you, and you can go and be happy, and stop worrying about this.
    Again, noone has said that the Destiny is a magical indesctructible built by perfect beings. I think everyone has acknowledged that the Destiny is in a state of disrepair and heading towards failure. The only person having difficulty here is you and your inability to consider that perhaps the Ancients were pretty handy at building very robust technologies and had the foresight to include multiple redundancies and safeguards into their critical systems. As for the life support system there was nothing wrong with it apart from the chemical component needing to be, for want of a better word, refuelled. Once that was done then the system went back to working without a problem.

  6. #86
    First Lieutenant Mike.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    how is it that all 16 drive modules have survived up until this point?
    Ancient technology lasts a really long time. It's one of the premises of the show and you have to accept it at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    I know that many of you want to believe in unicorns and magic ships crewed by faeries made by perfect beings who had perfect designs and built things that lasted forever,
    This is the show's established canon, if you don't like it, talk about another show. Simple as that. You can't modify (show) reality to suit your own belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    but given the ratings of the show, you are clearly in the minority.
    The ratings are fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Things have to make sense.
    They do. Very much in fact. Even if you don't realize it, the show has clear rules that have been put in place since the beginning, and the writers have always been careful to respect them. In the show's universe everything make perfect sense. If you just accept this you'll find yourself enjoying the show even more, you know "suspension of disbelief" and all that.

    The rules are present, but they don't always have to match with ours, remember: "sci-fi".

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    And being in space for 5 million years, with all 16 of your original drive modules working, and navigation working, and shields working, and only superficial damage to the hull, that does not make sense. I can safely say that the majority of potential viewers are with me; if they were with you, SGU would be getting great ratings wouldn't it?
    Everything make perfect sense in the Stargate in-universe, see above. Being unable to understand the show is a failure of your imagination.

    Again, the ratings are fine for show on a cable channel (limited reach) AND in the Friday night death slot, and has a tech savvy audience that DVRs it or watches it from other sources such as Hulu that may not be counted in the same way.

    The fact that Nilsen ratings are terrible at representing this particular viewer niche doesn't help make the figures more accurate other. Thankfully everyone knows this now, including TV execs (finally).



    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    PS. There is that assertion again, about what the Ancients intended. You really have to stop with that. There are at least two problems with that statement. One, you do not know what the Ancients intended. And second, "this long" is completely subjective, it has no objective meaning. "this long" could mean 10 minutes, or 4.99 million years after launch. "this long" could mean that the Ancients originally intended to board it only 15 minutes before the humans did, but ascended before then. Nowhere, in any episode, have they been able to determine why the Destiny was launched, or the exact time/place the Ancients intended Destiny to be when they were going to come aboard.

    I just wish people would stop making that statement, there is no basis for it.
    You seem to have a lot of problems accepting canon, and yet you cite it if you (mistakenly) think that it will help your argument.

    It is a very well know fact that the Ancients intended to board Destiny a long time ago but were prevented from doing so. Here's the proof:

    From Air part II:

    RUSH: [Destiny] The name of the ship, translated from Ancient.

    (Eli stands and walks over to the console.)

    RUSH: I've also discovered that they were never here.

    WALLACE: I thought this was an Ancient ship.

    RUSH: It is, but they sent it out unmanned, planning to use the Gate to get here when it was far enough out into the universe. But they probably learned to ascend before that time.
    From Joseph Mallozzi's blog:
    AaronNiGHTS writes: “It is a fact, then, that the majority of Destiny’s lifetime has existed before the Ancients ascended to a higher plane of existence. So much so that much less than 1% of Destiny’s life has been without the Ancients. If this is the case, then why is Destiny so far out and incapable of dialing home? Has that last 1% of its journey put it past the threshold of a viable solar powered Gate trip home? More over, if Destiny is such an important ship in the Ancients plans, why is it still running outdated technology? Atlantis had been around for Millions of years, but no Ancient ever thought of upgrading the technology aboard Destiny? Did they just abandon it?”

    Answer: Yes, they did just abandon it. Destiny was part of a very long-term project that was put in play millions of years ago. What its mission way and why the Ancients abandoned it remains a mystery.
    http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...-some-mailbag/

    South African Singularity also writes: “Also, wouldn’t the Atlantis database have some information regarding destiny? It obviously would have been built before the construction of Atlantis and / or the war with the Wraith, and they would have kept monitoring it’s progress in case it might stumble upon any new advantage they could gain against the Wraith at that time?”

    Answer: While Destiny and the seeder ship were launched on their long journey, the Ancients never got around to manning the ship so there would have been no hard data to gather beside possible atmospheric information on planets long-since passed.
    http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...pdate-mailbag/

    Joebags writes: “Are we every going to discover why certain planets were selected for gates? Why there are no DHD’s? How are these gates supposed to work and interact with each other? What is Destiny’s purpose? Make sure the gates work? Why? For whom? Destiny is huge, so what was its crew like? What happened to them?”

    Answers: Planets were selected on the basis of their ability to sustain life. No DHD’s because the Ancients planned to use remote DHD’s instead. Destiny’s purpose was to explore the planets seeded by the advance seeder ships. Destiny never had a crew. The Ancients ascended before they could board it.
    http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...mucho-mailbag/

    So you see - all this talk about the Ancients intending to board Destiny a long time ago (by our frame of reference) is completely based in fact.

    They had other more pressing issues to deal with, like getting wiped out by the plague, moving to a new galaxy and saving as many of their kind as possible, ascending, the Wraith going to war with them and getting eventually overwhelmed by their sheer numbers, going back to MW and having more of the ancients ascend.

    You are also wrong about not knowing where Destiny was launched from:

    From Air par I:
    SCOTT: What are we looking at?

    RUSH: It's a star map.

    PARK: That's the Milky Way.

    RUSH: I believe it's a visual log of the ship's journey.

    (Eli points to a flashing light close to the edge of the spiral.)

    WALLACE: So this is where we are now?

    RUSH: No. That's where the ship originally embarked from.

    BRODY: Earth.
    They also gave us an indication as to when Destiny was launched: before Atlantis, before going to Pegasus and before (or during at most) the plague in Milky Way that wiped out most of the Ancients.

    Ian writes: “Some people in a forum i am in are debating about destiny and atlantis. Destiny is first right? and we know that Atlantis has to be a few million years old, since they wiped out life in the milky way and then restarted it and left for pegasus. So would you be able to give a range of years like Destiny is 30-35 million years old and Atlantis is 10-15 million years old??”

    Answer: I’d rather not put a specific date on either (I’ll leave that to Brad or Rob), but I will confirm that, yes, Destiny IS older.
    http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...ts-curveballs/
    Last edited by Mike.; June 1st, 2010 at 06:28 AM.
    Carter:"The singularity is about to explode!"

  7. #87
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    As I have mentioned before Krazeh, you do not really need self repair systems on a manned vessel. I would assume that a crew is a cheaper way to do maintenance, if you have the choice. Redundancy is good, and can carry you a certain distance, but you cannot have two identical systems. Two identical systems would mean they would both be likely to fail in the same way, at close to the same time. For proper redundancy, you need dissimilar system. Think about two computers, following the same path through code in lock step.

    As for why self repair becomes necessary, you are failing to acknowledge just how good a shape the ship is in. If we take the Destiny gate as predating all MW gates, that is 50 million years in space. Even at 5 million, it still had all 16 drive modules operational?

    At some point, you have to accept the laws of probability. Maybe Destiny could get lucky for maybe a million years. But 5 million? 50 million? In 50 million years, not one shield failure while refueling? In 50 million years, not one drive failing, or being successfully hit in an attack?

    You point to superficial damage as evidence of how bad a shape Destiny is in. The key is, it is superficial. No fatigue that threatens to break the ship in half. No drive failures, no shield failures, no nav system failures. No failures of the collectors to open or close. Any and all damage just happens to be in areas of the ship that do not affect core operations. I call that magical and miraculous. You can call it whatever you want, but please don't discuss it here.

    I really do want to theorize about why the system is no longer in operation. That the ship is still in operation, after all this time, is clear evidence of such a system being in operation for some period of time, and only recently being rendered inoperable.

    The dwindling power reserves are clearly the result of heavier elements being scooped up along with the hydrogen. Either the self repair system is meant to clean that stuff out, or it is collected on purpose to serve as raw materials for the ship. Destiny simply does not make sense without self repair, and shows that do not make sense get canceled.

  8. #88
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    As I have mentioned before Krazeh, you do not really need self repair systems on a manned vessel. I would assume that a crew is a cheaper way to do maintenance, if you have the choice. Redundancy is good, and can carry you a certain distance, but you cannot have two identical systems. Two identical systems would mean they would both be likely to fail in the same way, at close to the same time. For proper redundancy, you need dissimilar system. Think about two computers, following the same path through code in lock step.
    Who said anything about the Ancients using identical systems for redundancy purposes?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    As for why self repair becomes necessary, you are failing to acknowledge just how good a shape the ship is in. If we take the Destiny gate as predating all MW gates, that is 50 million years in space. Even at 5 million, it still had all 16 drive modules operational?
    The ship isn't in that good a shape, it's been stated several times that systems are working well below their original design capability, almost to the point of failure. Not to mention huge parts of the ship are inaccessible due to damage sustained at various points during it's travels. As for the drive modules all being operational, putting aside the robustness of Ancient technology, there's no evidence to suggest that all 16 modules are used continuously. The ship may very well rotate use through the modules when inside galaxies and only use all 16 at once when it's travelling between galaxies. This alone would massively cut down on the use each module was subject to.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    At some point, you have to accept the laws of probability. Maybe Destiny could get lucky for maybe a million years. But 5 million? 50 million? In 50 million years, not one shield failure while refueling? In 50 million years, not one drive failing, or being successfully hit in an attack?
    Who's to say things haven't been successfully hit in an attack? The whole point of redundancies is that the system would keep on running despite that damage. And to be honest I think you're overestimating the amount of times the Destiny has been under attack, apart from anything else the likelihood of someone stumbling across the Destiny (even with sensors) is astronomically small given the vastness of space.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    You point to superficial damage as evidence of how bad a shape Destiny is in. The key is, it is superficial. No fatigue that threatens to break the ship in half. No drive failures, no shield failures, no nav system failures. No failures of the collectors to open or close. Any and all damage just happens to be in areas of the ship that do not affect core operations. I call that magical and miraculous. You can call it whatever you want, but please don't discuss it here.
    Key systems would be, if the Ancients had any idea what they were doing which from all indications they did, placed as far away from vunerable areas as possible, would likely be hardened to withstand damage, would incorporate multiple redundancies and safeguards and would frankly be the last things on the ship to fail. It's been demonstrated time and time again that the Ancienst build things tough and to last, which would mean that you'd probably need some sort of catastrophic event to stop the Destiny at any point before it's systems died due to natural failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    I really do want to theorize about why the system is no longer in operation. That the ship is still in operation, after all this time, is clear evidence of such a system being in operation for some period of time, and only recently being rendered inoperable.
    No, you want to theorize about why an imaginary system is no longer in operation. The ship still being in operation is simply evidence that it's still in operation, it does nothing to prove your theory that there must be a self-repair system that was keeping the ship together but has now conveniently been rendered inoperable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    The dwindling power reserves are clearly the result of heavier elements being scooped up along with the hydrogen. Either the self repair system is meant to clean that stuff out, or it is collected on purpose to serve as raw materials for the ship. Destiny simply does not make sense without self repair, and shows that do not make sense get canceled.
    This is just pure fantasy. There is no basis within the show for making any of these claims. The dwindling power reserves have clearly been stated to be due to the age of the systems involved and the fact they are slowly heading towards failure.

    As for not making sense, it only doesn't make sense if you refuse to take account of the established canon and instead insist on viewing everything in respect of real world technologies and how long you'd expect things we could build would last.

  9. #89
    Lieutenant Colonel Rise Of The Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    I'd just like to say something that I don't think has been said in this thread yet.
    If the Ancients used any kind of self repair technologies on their ships then surely they would be used all of the time.
    Just because you have a crew, that's no reason not to have a self repair system.
    If you want to talk about logic and what would make logical sense, then it would be to have your ship and all of your ships be capable of repairing themselves all of the time, not just when they're unmanned because then the vessel's crews can concentrate on more important things like their mission, tasks which the ship was built to accomplish.

    If a self repair system was present on Destiny then surely Rush, Eli or some other member of the crew would have mentioned it.
    As much as it makes sense for Destiny to have such a system, it simply hasn't been mentioned, until the system is mentioned then we don't know if it has one.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazeh View Post
    Who said anything about the Ancients using identical systems for redundancy purposes?



    The ship isn't in that good a shape, it's been stated several times that systems are working well below their original design capability, almost to the point of failure.
    That is the things though, everything important is still working, nothing has actually failed, in all those millions of years. All the redundancies are still in place, not one major system has had to switch to a backup. Not one drive, not a single one, has failed. All those holes in the skin, yet not one lucky shot that actually disabled anything important. You just are not seeing it here.

    Millions of years. Too long for nothing important to fail. If you cannot accept that, I do not see what your interest is in this discussion.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    That is the things though, everything important is still working, nothing has actually failed, in all those millions of years. All the redundancies are still in place, not one major system has had to switch to a backup. Not one drive, not a single one, has failed.
    You've been onboard then? And inspected each system in great detail? If not I don't see how you can make any claims that systems have not resorted to redundancies and/or backup systems in order to keep operating.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    All those holes in the skin, yet not one lucky shot that actually disabled anything important. You just are not seeing it here.
    Frankly it'd be terribly badly designed if a lucky shot was capable of disabling a vital system.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Millions of years. Too long for nothing important to fail. If you cannot accept that, I do not see what your interest is in this discussion.
    As has previously been stated, there's been several examples of Ancient technology lasting millions of years without failure. I mean they managed to find a stargate and DHD in Antartica that was millions and millions of years old and apart from being low on power was working fine, that's seriously robust technology. As for my interest in this discussion, i'm interested to see if you can actually manage to put forward some compelling evidence for the existence of your theorised self repair system that stands up to scrutiny. So far you've not produced anything but there's always hope.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
    I'd just like to say something that I don't think has been said in this thread yet.
    If the Ancients used any kind of self repair technologies on their ships then surely they would be used all of the time.
    Just because you have a crew, that's no reason not to have a self repair system.
    If you want to talk about logic and what would make logical sense, then it would be to have your ship and all of your ships be capable of repairing themselves all of the time, not just when they're unmanned because then the vessel's crews can concentrate on more important things like their mission, tasks which the ship was built to accomplish.

    If a self repair system was present on Destiny then surely Rush, Eli or some other member of the crew would have mentioned it.
    As much as it makes sense for Destiny to have such a system, it simply hasn't been mentioned, until the system is mentioned then we don't know if it has one.
    You fail to take into account expense. Why didn't the Ancients make all city ships? Why didn't Atlantis have a ZPM factory, and a drone factory? Why wasn't every puddle jumper equipped with shields, stasis modules, and intergalactic hyper-drives? Just because you have a technology, does not mean it is desirable or feasible to include it in every single thing you build.

    That is entirely reasonable, but as I mentioned before, it just doesn't make sense that everything important is still in operation after millions of years. It is simply impossible, given the laws of probabilities. No matter how small a chance you assign to a drive module failure, the vastness of time that has passed means that at least one drive module should have failed before now. I made up some numbers before, a billionth of a percent chance of failure doubling every 100,00 years; I think we can all agree that is eye poppingly robust. Yet after 5 million years, even that small chance has grown to the point where it is impossible that there has not been a single failure (and the Destiny could be as much as 50 million years old).

    If they had gated aboard, and been confronted with a situation where they were down to 2 or 3 of the original 16 drive modules, multiple shield generators had failed, you know, actual failures in critical systems, then you can make the case for no self repair. But 100% of critical systems were in operation. There is just no way to make that work without some repairs being done, and the database does say the Ancients were never aboard. Self repair seems more likely than some benevolent alien race setting Destiny right, and just leaving it to continue on its way.

  13. #93
    Lieutenant Colonel Rise Of The Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    You fail to take into account expense. Why didn't the Ancients make all city ships? Why didn't Atlantis have a ZPM factory, and a drone factory? Why wasn't every puddle jumper equipped with shields, stasis modules, and intergalactic hyper-drives? Just because you have a technology, does not mean it is desirable or feasible to include it in every single thing you build.
    What expense?
    The only expense the Ancients would have is the cost of resources, which to them would be almost limitless, considering they had access to an entire galaxy.

    What I said makes sense, you cannot deny that.
    If you have a system on your ship, that can free people from doing something they never have to then you put it in place on every ship, city or facility you can, it just makes sense plain and simple.
    Cost is not an issue for such an advanced race as the Ancients, it shouldn't be an issue for us in the real world if we used our technology with any degree of intelligence.

    BTW a self repair system is useful in all situations where your ships could encounter damage, especially when out in space or anywhere so your argument doesn't really make sense here my friend.
    That is entirely reasonable, but as I mentioned before, it just doesn't make sense that everything important is still in operation after millions of years. It is simply impossible, given the laws of probabilities. No matter how small a chance you assign to a drive module failure, the vastness of time that has passed means that at least one drive module should have failed before now. I made up some numbers before, a billionth of a percent chance of failure doubling every 100,00 years; I think we can all agree that is eye poppingly robust. Yet after 5 million years, even that small chance has grown to the point where it is impossible that there has not been a single failure (and the Destiny could be as much as 50 million years old).

    If they had gated aboard, and been confronted with a situation where they were down to 2 or 3 of the original 16 drive modules, multiple shield generators had failed, you know, actual failures in critical systems, then you can make the case for no self repair. But 100% of critical systems were in operation. There is just no way to make that work without some repairs being done, and the database does say the Ancients were never aboard. Self repair seems more likely than some benevolent alien race setting Destiny right, and just leaving it to continue on its way.
    You fail to understand what I wrote in my last post.
    I'll re-write it so you don't have to go back up the page, coz I'm nice and poilite like that.

    We haven't been told Destiny has a self repair system, so we don't know whether or not it has one.
    We have also not been told other pieces of equally old Ancient technologies have self repair capabilities, we just haven't been told, so we don't know with any digree of accuracy that they do or do not have them.

    If you use probability you could say anything is possible given enough time, I don't deny probabilities, but we haven't been told Destiny has what you say it has, I don't even recall TPTB mentioning such a system.
    If you decide to reply to my post please read it carefully before posting.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazeh View Post
    You've been onboard then? And inspected each system in great detail? If not I don't see how you can make any claims that systems have not resorted to redundancies and/or backup systems in order to keep operating.



    Frankly it'd be terribly badly designed if a lucky shot was capable of disabling a vital system.



    As has previously been stated, there's been several examples of Ancient technology lasting millions of years without failure. I mean they managed to find a stargate and DHD in Antartica that was millions and millions of years old and apart from being low on power was working fine, that's seriously robust technology. As for my interest in this discussion, i'm interested to see if you can actually manage to put forward some compelling evidence for the existence of your theorised self repair system that stands up to scrutiny. So far you've not produced anything but there's always hope.
    So you are making the argument that this is the most complex device the Ancients ever built, and that all other devices, being simpler, will last at least as long as gates and DHDs. I don't buy that argument. There is no example of Ancient technology the complexity and age of Destiny (save Destiny itself) that is still functioning.

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    You fail to take into account expense.
    What expense ? A self repair system practically pays for itself. The truth is that their technology was so robust that they didn't need one. It's a core element of the show present form the get-go. The show also tells us that they never incorporated something like this into any of their tech (or even used it on a mass scale).

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    That is entirely reasonable, but as I mentioned before, it just doesn't make sense that everything important is still in operation after millions of years. It is simply impossible, given the laws of probabilities. No matter how small a chance you assign to a drive module failure, the vastness of time that has passed means that at least one drive module should have failed before now. I made up some numbers before, a billionth of a percent chance of failure doubling every 100,00 years; I think we can all agree that is eye poppingly robust. Yet after 5 million years, even that small chance has grown to the point where it is impossible that there has not been a single failure (and the Destiny could be as much as 50 million years old).

    If they had gated aboard, and been confronted with a situation where they were down to 2 or 3 of the original 16 drive modules, multiple shield generators had failed, you know, actual failures in critical systems, then you can make the case for no self repair. But 100% of critical systems were in operation. There is just no way to make that work without some repairs being done, and the database does say the Ancients were never aboard. Self repair seems more likely than some benevolent alien race setting Destiny right, and just leaving it to continue on its way.
    Your made-up statistics are irrelevant, and without any sort of evidence to back them up. They even directly contradict show canon. Ancient tech has been shown plenty of times that it is incredibly resilient. It doesn't decay like ours does, and the materials are super strong (don't turn to dust after millions of years) and barely show some discoloration. To top it off it's protected by (normally) impenetrable shields.
    - Stargates last millions of years - the one in Antarctica was at least 50 million years old and still operational.
    - all the original communication stones - still worked fine and they may be even older than any stargate
    - the Dakara "weapon" was still fully functional with an intact powersource,
    - the Repositories of Knowledge - still fine. With power.
    - the gate destroyer used by Anubis - Ancient tech and still operational, power source intact, shield...,
    - all the tech Merlin left - it still works,
    - Atlantis in top condition, the only damage ever caused was from lack of power to properly maintain the shield.

    That's just how it is, putting your fingers in your ears, coming up with bogus numbers or trying to invent scenarios that don't have any sort of precedent doesn't help your argument.

    Why do you refuse to face reality (of the show) ?
    Carter:"The singularity is about to explode!"

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Well Rise, suffice it to say I disagree with you. I look at the probabilities, the sheer age of Destiny, and I say you can conclude with near absolute certainty that the ship simply would no longer exist without repairs having been made at some point.

    Sure, you can compare communications stones or DHDs to the complexity of Destiny. I do not think those are valid comparisons.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Well Rise, suffice it to say I disagree with you. I look at the probabilities, the sheer age of Destiny, and I say you can conclude with near absolute certainty that the ship simply would no longer exist without repairs having been made at some point.
    Only if you disregard previously established canon. You seem to be forgetting that this is sci-fi and by it's very nature not everything follows the same rules as you would expect in the real world. So yeah, in the real world it might not be possible to create anything that lasts anywhere as near as long as the Destiny has but that has no impact on the feasibility of such an situation in the SG universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Sure, you can compare communications stones or DHDs to the complexity of Destiny. I do not think those are valid comparisons.
    Wow, what a surprise that you wouldn't consider evidence that pokes holes in your claims to be a valid comparison. I must say i'm amused that you consider stargates to be less complex than anything else on the Destiny, less the onboard stargate i'd assume. Obviously a device that can create a wormhole through spacetime, dematerialise objects (both organic and inorganic, and of seemingly any complexity), transmit it through the wormhole and rematerialise it perfectly on the other end is a perfectly simple device and so much less complex than things like computers or engines. No doubt it's obvious simplicity is what allows it to last 50+ million years and still function perfectly while the computers on the Destiny would need constant repair to remain operational.

  18. #98
    Lieutenant Colonel Rise Of The Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Well Rise, suffice it to say I disagree with you. I look at the probabilities, the sheer age of Destiny, and I say you can conclude with near absolute certainty that the ship simply would no longer exist without repairs having been made at some point.

    Sure, you can compare communications stones or DHDs to the complexity of Destiny. I do not think those are valid comparisons.
    How can you disagree with the fact that such a system has never been mentioned or shown on the show?
    Probabilities are one thing, but when you start saying such a device or group of devices that would make up the ship's self repair function have been shown which is what you are saying when you disagree with my post, well that's ridiculous.
    We've never seen what you claim exists, in my world and the world of many other gateworlders who have posted here that is what's known as Fanon.

    There's no evidence besides the ship lasting a long time in the emptyness of space.
    I would like to point out that I've never said the ship doesn't have a self repair function, so all you're disagreeing with is my openness to possibilities that it could or couldn't have one.

    TBH I expected the ship to have a self repair function, but it doesn't hurt my ego or anything that it hasn't been shown to have one.
    No skin off my nose either way.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    While we're at it, let's not forget the fact that the Ancients were already a space faring race before they even came up with the idea of stargates and would appear to have had reached the stage where their ships could travel between galaxies. As such stargates would be a newer technology than things like shields, computers and FTL drives so it's unlikely that they would be a less complex piece of technology.

    Oh and on the point of the robustness of Ancient devices the Ark of Truth managed to survive the devastation caused by the launch of an Ancient vessel, the subsequent collapse of a mountain and the passage of millions upon millions of years. None of this had any impact on it's ability to function flawlessly when it was found by SG1.

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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Every couple hundred thousand years or so, works out to be maybe 15 to 20 advanced alien races attacking the ship over time. You factor in navigation hazards, like possibly encountering the shockwave of a super nova, rogue asteroids, comet, any kind of unknown hazard that you would get traveling through space that was not completely charted. Needing to refuel, but having to use a star that was less than ideal (say, a star that had entered the helium burning stage). Something like that has probably happened at least a dozen or so times. Being stranded without the power for shields, waiting for momentum to carry you to the nearest star, this scenario has been strongly hinted at, the ship would be very vulnerable. The damage would build up over time.

    Not to mention, the most likely reason to attack the ship is to try to gain control of it, so the most likely targets are the engines and engineering sections of the ship. Attacks by advanced alien races would not just be on random areas of the ship; they would go after critical systems. And if 15 to 20 advanced alien races had all been attacking the same areas of the ship, how is it that all 16 drive modules have survived up until this point?

    I know that many of you want to believe in unicorns and magic ships crewed by faeries made by perfect beings who had perfect designs and built things that lasted forever, but given the ratings of the show, you are clearly in the minority. Things have to make sense. And being in space for 5 million years, with all 16 of your original drive modules working, and navigation working, and shields working, and only superficial damage to the hull, that does not make sense. I can safely say that the majority of potential viewers are with me; if they were with you, SGU would be getting great ratings wouldn't it?

    PS. There is that assertion again, about what the Ancients intended. You really have to stop with that. There are at least two problems with that statement. One, you do not know what the Ancients intended. And second, "this long" is completely subjective, it has no objective meaning. "this long" could mean 10 minutes, or 4.99 million years after launch. "this long" could mean that the Ancients originally intended to board it only 15 minutes before the humans did, but ascended before then. Nowhere, in any episode, have they been able to determine why the Destiny was launched, or the exact time/place the Ancients intended Destiny to be when they were going to come aboard.

    I just wish people would stop making that statement, there is no basis for it.
    15 - 20 races sure, but as we've seen with the blues, you'd need to be extremely advanced to breach destinys shields.. if Destiny was at full capacity Id say its pretty likely that it could hold its own against the wraith, the replicators, maybe even the ori... infact at the moment at 40% capacity Destiny can withstand an attack from the blues for quite a while (Space, Divided) without any major damage..

    Supernova's are pretty rare... infact extremely rare.. Rogue asteroids would be factored in by the data given by the seeder ship, and Destiny has its own sensors.. and Space isn't full of dangerous things floating about trying to kill you, its actually mostly (almost entirely) empty.. hence the name space...

    And well.. in this argument against you we can really say anything we like can't we.. There has never been any mention of a self-repair system, and given its been said on a few occasions that the ship is falling apart and bearly functioning yet you still think there is... On that basis Im going to argue that... Atlantis was in the future was captured by Sith, who travelled back in time, to capture the Destiny, but accidentally shrunk Atlantis and its in the chair room, and Franklin was shrunk down to the city and now he's learning the way of the force... Can you understand how that rediculous and crazy theory is just as valid as yours?

    The ship is without a doubt extremely damaged, like really really really damaged... infact most of the systems are barely functioning... Rush and co. are constantly repairing those systems... The universe is not full of threats around every solar systems trying to kill you, its almost entirely empty.. and its very very possible that Destiny could have went a million years without getting any damage whatsoever.

    And we can make some assumptions about when the ancients planned to board it. For example Ive been going on the fact that the people who designed it and built it would want to see it in action, so the ancients would plan to board it sometime within their own lifetime (which Im sure would have been considerable longer then ours) so from that Im estimating that the ancients intended to board Destiny after a few hundred years, without a doubt less than a thousand years... also if they waited longer then that, the technology aboard the Destiny would have more then likely been totally outdated, and perhaps even incompatible with the tech they were using at the time.
    See how I made a logical assumption that is possible, though not known for sure, and not contradicted by established canon in the show?
    I dunno what to put in here now..

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