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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    OK, seriously, if you have another plausible theory, let me know. "The ship has been in space for millions of years, without the ability to repair itself, but fortunately the only damage is superficial and no critical systems have been affected or broken on their own." is not a plausible theory.

    So, you know the name of the ship. You know the ship has a star gate on it. You know the Ancients built the ship. You know there are life support systems on the ship. How in the great blue yonder does that tell you anything about when the Ancients intended to go there? Just explain that to me. EXPLAIN THE WHEN PART. That is all I ask.

    There are 5 W's.

    Who? Ancients.
    What? A space ship.
    When?
    Where? Far far away.
    Why?

    When and why are entirely unknown.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazeh View Post
    Edit: Just to go back to your first point about all the unmanned vessels they've found being inoperational, this kinda flies in the face of your argument about self-repair systems. If the Ancients had the technology to incorporate such a system into the Destiny why would they not include it, or an appropriately upgraded version, on thier later vessels? The vessels that were found all had power iirc so unless in each case the self repair system was also damaged then why were the vessels still damaged when they were found? And if the self repair system was damaged in each and every case then it doesn't seem to be very reliable and certainly not something to be counted on.

    Oh, and if this alleged self-repair system is as important as you claim it to be wouldn't you expect there to have been some sort of warning flashing somewhere on a computer terminal when they arrived? I know if I had such a vitally important system I'd make sure it'd be damn obvious if it had failed.
    There is no need for such a system on a ship with a full crew. Simple question of efficiency. Also with a crew, you are not going on thousand or million year missions.

    You you still have not explained the when. If you do not know when the Ancients planned on going to Destiny, if you do not know the exact number that coincides with "far enough out in the universe", then how can you say whether or not Destiny was supposed to be unmanned this long? Just explain that one simple thing.

    PS. The Asgard DID include such systems, but their ships had very minimal crews, or even just pilots with no one else on board.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    OK, seriously, if you have another plausible theory, let me know. "The ship has been in space for millions of years, without the ability to repair itself, but fortunately the only damage is superficial and no critical systems have been affected or broken on their own." is not a plausible theory.
    It's no less plausible than your theory that the ship includes a system that has not been evidenced in any way either on SGU or in any of the other franchise series. We have never seen any demonstration that the Ancients incorporated automated self-repair systems into any of their vessels. And to be honest I would expect critical systems to have a number of redundant backups and safeguards which, when you consider the Ancients ability to create highly reliable systems, would go some way to explaining how they're still functioning. Not to mention it's been stated on the show that the ships systems, including the computers, are failing and are nowhere near the operational levels they'd have been at when the ship was launched.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    So, you know the name of the ship. You know the ship has a star gate on it. You know the Ancients built the ship. You know there are life support systems on the ship. How in the great blue yonder does that tell you anything about when the Ancients intended to go there? Just explain that to me. EXPLAIN THE WHEN PART. That is all I ask.

    There are 5 W's.

    Who? Ancients.
    What? A space ship.
    When?
    Where? Far far away.
    Why?

    When and why are entirely unknown.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    You you still have not explained the when. If you do not know when the Ancients planned on going to Destiny, if you do not know the exact number that coincides with "far enough out in the universe", then how can you say whether or not Destiny was supposed to be unmanned this long? Just explain that one simple thing.
    You're right, we don't know exactly when the Ancients were planning on boarding the Destiny which means we have to take our clues from what the show tells us and what the creators have said about it. Now the show, as indicated in the quote from Air Pt 2, implies that the Ancients had originally intended to board at some point in the past but probably ascended before they got round to it. More damning however is Joseph Mallozzi who in his blog states that the Ancients abandoned the Destiny project which was orginally put in play millions of years ago; this, imo, very strongly implies that the original plan would have been for the Ancients to have boarded the Destiny long ago but due to an unknown reason decided to abandon it instead.

    What I would like to know at this point tho is what evidence you have for the Ancients always having planned for the Destiny to have been unmanned this long. I mean it's you who are arguing a point that goes against the common understanding of the situation so let's hear your evidence for your claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    There is no need for such a system on a ship with a full crew. Simple question of efficiency. Also with a crew, you are not going on thousand or million year missions.
    Or maybe the Ancients just never created or used such a system? After all there has so far been no evidence for it in any of the 3 Stargate series as far as i'm aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    PS. The Asgard DID include such systems, but their ships had very minimal crews, or even just pilots with no one else on board.
    And we have no idea when the Asgard started using those systems or whether they and the Ancients shared a similar philosophy when it came to constructing technologies. In short you can't use the fact that one species has a certain technology as a basis to claim that another species will, or should, also have that technology.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    Atlantis had even more powerful shielding, it was truly impenetrable. Yet after only 10,000 years vast sections of the city were flooded and there was lots of damage.
    Atlantis was at the bottom of an ocean with its power dwindling, Destiny is in the vaccum of space constantly getting recharged... plus the shield started to retract when the atlantis expedition arrived, and it didn't have enough power to keep all of the shield up and to power the systems etc

    Atlantis doesn't have any auto repair systems that we've seen, and considering how much damage was done in the five years of SGA you'd think they would have kicked in... Destiny was probably intended to be boarded by the ancients after 10 years or 50 years or something of the likes, its pretty logical to assume that the ancients had a life expectancy greater then ours, so the same team that sent the ship out would still be alive and well even after 50 years, but perhaps the plague arose in that time, or the ancients had other priorities we're unaware of...

    And plus the thing thats shouting at everyone in the face... the ship is basically falling apart! Theres no auto repair! Every system in the ship is running at far below peak capacity, we know this for a fact... Im sure they stocked it full of robots so that when they got there they could do any repairs, keep in mind the ancients would have had the masterlock key too so they would be able to assess all the damage immediately and since they know everything about the ship they'd know exactly how to fix it and they'd just program the robots to do so. (assuming theres more then 1)
    Last edited by Puddle-Jumper; May 26th, 2010 at 06:07 PM.
    I dunno what to put in here now..

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazeh View Post
    We have never seen any demonstration that the Ancients incorporated automated self-repair systems into any of their vessels.
    This is the first time we have seen a vessel that the Ancients intended for long term unmanned operation. As for why they did not include such systems on everything they built, I can only speculate. I imagine such systems are not cheap or easy, so the same reason they didn't have all city ships I guess.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puddle-Jumper View Post
    And plus the thing thats shouting at everyone in the face... the ship is basically falling apart!
    That is the thing, the ship is not falling apart, not by any stretch of the imagination. No critical systems have failed, and they show no indication of ever doing so. The drives just had their first failure in 5 million years, and that was a deliberate act of sabotage. The shields, all is good there. The computers, no hint of parity errors or anything. Navigation, tip top. Database, fully intact.

    If you can name one critical system that is falling apart, please do so.

    In short, all damage that we have seen is superficial, and does not in any way affect the long term viability of Destiny.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Man kwlafayette, you are really good at getting people riled up with your theories. I agree that on the forefront it seems like Destiny could not have survived all this time without some sort of repair mechanism, but there's just no way to know that for certain. The repair robot sure seemed like it would fit with your theory, but it required too much manual direction, unless the Icarus crew doesn't really understand how to operate it yet. Again, we just don't have enough facts.

    As for the timing of the Ancients return, you're right in that there's no way to know when they planned to return. Perhaps that time is yet to come. However, I think it's fairly safe to say that whenever their scheduled return date was/will be, they aren't going to show up because they ascended before they made it back to the ship.

    I suppose another possibility might be that the Ancients did return to Destiny, sometime long ago, and did whatever they planned to do, but then decided to let her continue her way. I know Rush said they were never there, but he's been mistaken before, so nothing he concludes can be considered concrete fact.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    This is the first time we have seen a vessel that the Ancients intended for long term unmanned operation. As for why they did not include such systems on everything they built, I can only speculate. I imagine such systems are not cheap or easy, so the same reason they didn't have all city ships I guess.
    Which gets us to the point that your entire claim is purely speculative. You've not provided any in-universe evidence that can support your claims and only have baseless conjecture and your own personal belief that they must be a self-repair system. That is not grounds to be making the claim that such a system must exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    That is the thing, the ship is not falling apart, not by any stretch of the imagination. No critical systems have failed, and they show no indication of ever doing so. The drives just had their first failure in 5 million years, and that was a deliberate act of sabotage. The shields, all is good there. The computers, no hint of parity errors or anything. Navigation, tip top. Database, fully intact.

    If you can name one critical system that is falling apart, please do so.

    In short, all damage that we have seen is superficial, and does not in any way affect the long term viability of Destiny.
    Taken from Earth:

    RUSH: No, look, look, this ship is old and damaged. The computers aren't registering half the things they're supposed to. I want manual confirmation before activating any system that comprehensive.
    Doesn't sound like the computers are doing all that great to me. As for other systems they may not have failed yet but it's been stated that they're operating well under their original levels. Power reserves, FTL, weapon systems are all running at reduced capability, with the weapon systems in particular being a particular issue. So much so that they nearly blew up the ship when they were using it in the events of Space. It's also been mentioned that power conduits within the ship are damaged and vast areas of the ship are inaccessible due to damage. To claim that the ship is intact apart from superficial damage completely disregards all the evidence we have seen in the show about the state of the Destiny.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaMm3r View Post
    Man kwlafayette, you are really good at getting people riled up with your theories.
    To be honest there's nothing particulary wrong with this theory in principle; what is frustrating is his apparent inability to realise that if you wish to claim that unseen systems exist you need more than conjecture and your own personal belief if you wish to present it as a credible viewpoint. If he actually managed to provide some in-universe evidence to support his claims then he'd probably find more people would be willing to go along with it and/or consider it as a valid possibility.

  10. #30
    Major Puddle-Jumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    That is the thing, the ship is not falling apart, not by any stretch of the imagination. No critical systems have failed, and they show no indication of ever doing so. The drives just had their first failure in 5 million years, and that was a deliberate act of sabotage. The shields, all is good there. The computers, no hint of parity errors or anything. Navigation, tip top. Database, fully intact.

    If you can name one critical system that is falling apart, please do so.

    In short, all damage that we have seen is superficial, and does not in any way affect the long term viability of Destiny.
    O'NEILL: So, how is it going out there, really?

    YOUNG: I don't know what Rush has told you, but we may not have much time left. The ship's very old - it's falling apart.

    O'NEILL: Fix it.


    First off, life support that was failing when they got aboard.. then theres the fact that the power generator systems are so badly damaged that they don't even have enough energy the power the shield enough the keep the atmosphere in all over the ship, we saw in battles with the blues that using the weapons too much means the ship could very well explode... theres all those holes that have been poked in it... You'd think they'd have been the first target of any potential auto repair system that the ship had? The power conduits literally all over the ship are extremely badly damaged, that is far from superficial damage, that to me seems like very very bad damage, the computers work and the doors open, the gate is good and the ship can still go, but that doesn't mean its superficial damge...

    Just because the main systems still function, doesn't mean that they're not damaged, heavily damaged even, infact everything we've seen shows that putting the main systems under any stress at all could result in them failing
    I dunno what to put in here now..

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazeh View Post

    You're right, we don't know exactly when the Ancients were planning on boarding the Destiny
    That is the salient point. Sometime in the past could be 1 million years after launch, it could be 50 years after launch. Short time periods make less sense; you could just go there in a regular ship. The longer the period, the less likely the ship will be intact without self repair systems. At some point, it makes little sense to even launch a ship without self repair, because there is no chance it would survive without intervention. I would put this time around 50,000 years. Even the way they built things, they could not expect an unmanned ship to still be operating after 50,000 years without self repair or regular intervention.

    This is the first ship we have seen that refuels itself. Self refueling ability implies a pretty long term mission in and of itself. Also the range between refueling is huge, more than enough to span the distance between galaxies. At the very least, Destiny was meant to travel to the next galaxy cluster before it was boarded, and possibly to the next super cluster or galactic strand.

    I think you have to conclude that the unknown time is at the very least, 50,000 years unmanned in space. Whatever mission it is, does not make sense without self repair.

    The only way to do it without self repair, is the scattershot approach. Send many ships on the same mission, small cheap ships, and hope that one of them survives long enough. But there was only one 9 chevron address.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puddle-Jumper View Post
    First off, life support that was failing when they got aboard.. then theres the fact that the power generator systems are so badly damaged that they don't even have enough energy the power the shield enough the keep the atmosphere in all over the ship, we saw in battles with the blues that using the weapons too much means the ship could very well explode... theres all those holes that have been poked in it... You'd think they'd have been the first target of any potential auto repair system that the ship had? The power conduits literally all over the ship are extremely badly damaged, that is far from superficial damage, that to me seems like very very bad damage, the computers work and the doors open, the gate is good and the ship can still go, but that doesn't mean its superficial damge...

    Just because the main systems still function, doesn't mean that they're not damaged, heavily damaged even, infact everything we've seen shows that putting the main systems under any stress at all could result in them failing
    Life support: not mission critical.
    Shield: it can't keep the atmosphere in, but for some reason it can keep star out. It not that the shield is failing, it is that it is not designed to contain atmosphere like the Atlantis shield was. Seriously, the ship can fly through stars, I think it is in pretty good shape.

    And yet, all these power conduits, that are ready to explode, not one of them has actually done it in 5 million years, has it? The drive has not failed, the shield has not failed, the refueling system has not failed, navigation keeps them on course (even exacuting perfect aero braking maneuvers). Not one critical system has failed in all that time, and the Ancients have never been on board to fix anything themselves.

    Gee, how very very lucky in the 1 in a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kind of way.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwlafayette View Post
    That is the salient point. Sometime in the past could be 1 million years after launch, it could be 50 years after launch. Short time periods make less sense; you could just go there in a regular ship. The longer the period, the less likely the ship will be intact without self repair systems. At some point, it makes little sense to even launch a ship without self repair, because there is no chance it would survive without intervention. I would put this time around 50,000 years. Even the way they built things, they could not expect an unmanned ship to still be operating after 50,000 years without self repair or regular intervention.

    This is the first ship we have seen that refuels itself. Self refueling ability implies a pretty long term mission in and of itself. Also the range between refueling is huge, more than enough to span the distance between galaxies. At the very least, Destiny was meant to travel to the next galaxy cluster before it was boarded, and possibly to the next super cluster or galactic strand.

    I think you have to conclude that the unknown time is at the very least, 50,000 years unmanned in space. Whatever mission it is, does not make sense without self repair.

    The only way to do it without self repair, is the scattershot approach. Send many ships on the same mission, small cheap ships, and hope that one of them survives long enough. But there was only one 9 chevron address.
    Again, this is all pure conjecture mixed with your own personal beliefs, well apart from the bit about the Destiny being able to refuel itself. Where is your in-universe evidence to support any of these claims?

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    We have all seen how damaged the ship is. It is simply impossible for it to still be in operation without some repairs being done at some point, and we know the Ancients never did them. Something has held it together for 5 million or so years. If it turns out to be pure luck, this will be the crappiest possible Stargate spin off of all time, and it will not last past the second season. I will sue the producers to get the time I spent watching that load of crap, back.

    Freaking continents are not even the same after that time frame. No force short of the Almighty himself could build something that would last that long. And not only has it lasted that long, it has been attacked in that time. People have told me that you need not have any particular expertise or knowledge to make something blow up; yet here we have a ship with no crew, and (you would have me believe) no ability to repair itself, and no one has managed to stop it in 5 million years. It literally must have encountered at least a dozen advanced civilizations during that time. Each galaxy seems to have one dominant and technologically advanced civilization, so possibly hundreds of thousands of advanced alien races.

  15. #35
    First Lieutenant Mike.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    There are holes all over the ship. The crew had to manually close all the bulkhead doors they could to protect the little atmosphere they had left in "Air".

    Destiny's power storage system is falling apart, it's at 30% of original capacity (see "Light", "Sabotage").

    The energy conduits are also failing - see "Earth" - Riley almost got killed by one. Also in "Space" energy was leaking in the corridors - Lt James had to cut power to that section to avoid getting everyone electrocuted. [1] [2] [3]

    The CO2 scrubbers have also failed. They had to replace the active material in "Air III".

    Main power, life support, hull integrity - three critical systems badly damaged.
    Carter:"The singularity is about to explode!"

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    I really can't believe no one else finds it the least bit odd that the laundry circuits are blown, water recycling does not work, the air scrubber was shot, a couple of doors won't open, some lights don't work. But not one failure, in all that time has managed to impede the progress of the ship in any way.

    The Ancients could not build a water recycling system, that was not even in use, that would last that long, but you have no problem believing the drive, built by the same people is just fine, even though it has been in continuous operation.

    Do you guys believe the promises politicians make too?

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
    There are holes all over the ship. The crew had to manually close all the bulkhead doors they could to protect the little atmosphere they had left in "Air".

    Destiny's power storage system is falling apart, it's at 30% of original capacity (see "Light", "Sabotage").

    The energy conduits are also failing - see "Earth" - Riley almost got killed by one. Also in "Space" energy was leaking in the corridors - Lt James had to cut power to that section to avoid getting everyone electrocuted. [1] [2] [3]

    The CO2 scrubbers have also failed. They had to replace the active material in "Air III".

    Main power, life support, hull integrity - three critical systems badly damaged.
    All that damage to the ship, and yet amazingly, drives still driving. Shields still shielding. Fueling system, still fueling. Navigation still guiding. Absolutely amazing how none of that "critical" damage you mention has ever stopped the ship from going wherever it is that it is going.

    If I were to tell you that my car was critically damaged, would you expect that to mean the power seats and windows were not working, but the engine, transmission, drive train, steering, brakes and tires were all perfectly fine?

  18. #38
    First Lieutenant Mike.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    From Sabotage:
    PERRY: There was an overload - one that probably shouldn't have happened because the system is unbelievably robust, with more safeguards than I can count, but it happened. And - as with most overloads - it happened in the weakest link.

    WALLACE: The F.T.L. drive is made up of sixteen separate modules. The one that blew up was the weakest link because it was the least efficient.

    YOUNG: You're sure the ship can fly on the other drives?

    RUSH: Even better than that.

    PERRY: Without the worn-out drive bringing down overall efficiency, Destiny should be able to make it across the void.
    Note a few keywords: unbelievably robust, safeguards, 16 separate modules, worn out.

    If a blue alien hadn't shorted out the misbehaving one Destiny would have run out of power in the void. Dead in space.

    Life support also completely failed, it had to be repaired by the crew.

    If they had continued to stress the energy conduits the ship would have blown up in "Earth", same thing in "Space" caused by firing the main weapon.
    Carter:"The singularity is about to explode!"

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    One last word with regard the length of Destiny's mission. We know about reactors, and nuclear stuff. The amount of nuclear fuel required to keep a rector going for a thousand years is not that big in terms of sheer volume. You could easily fill a small room with enough naquada pellets for some 100,000 years (according to the information given in various episodes). So the self refueling thing, it is possible that not even the Ancients knew how long the Destiny mission would take.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Destiny must have self repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
    From Sabotage:


    Note a few keywords: unbelievably robust, safeguards, 16 separate modules, worn out.

    If a blue alien hadn't shorted out the misbehaving one Destiny would have run out of power in the void. Dead in space.

    Life support also completely failed, it had to be repaired by the crew.

    If they had continued to stress the energy conduits the ship would have blown up in "Earth", same thing in "Space" caused by firing the main weapon.
    I repeat:

    All that damage to the ship, and yet amazingly, drives still driving. Shields still shielding. Fueling system, still fueling. Navigation still guiding. Absolutely amazing how none of that "critical" damage you mention has ever stopped the ship from going wherever it is that it is going.

    All the attacks it survived over all those years, and somehow it is only life support that fails.

    PS. Also, how is all that "catastrophic" damage evidence that there could not possibly be any self repair system? It seems you are trying to prove my point?

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