Is Telford right about his statement on Earth's actions

[s09119]

I don't think Sam, Daniel, Jack and Teal'c would be too happy to hear WE are the bad guys. Maybe we should hold a rock concert Live Aid MW .

Ohhhh good idea! Chloe can swap back via stones and perform her rap song

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Telford clearly has somewhat of a point, but honestly it’s a straw man argument, while there’s some basis, he’s misrepresenting earth’s position.

Is there a somewhat of a similarity between Iraq and Afghanistan? Yes, we have the old regime taken out and the new factions squabbling for power. However there are key differences, Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded by coalitions of the most powerful nations on earth, in comparison earth on the galactic scale was the underdog. Also they then had to spend another two years fighting another even more aggressive and powerful enemy than the Goa’uld, it would be as if on the Coalition forces finally taking control of Iraq the Iranians promptly invaded and we had to fight them as well.

Further earth was not expecting such success, they were in a war of survival with the Goa’uld. There can be arguments about how earth trigged a Goa’uld response, but honestly after that first mission to Abydos and the death of Ra the Goa’uld were gunning for earth anyway. But earth fought a desperate guerrilla war, in stark contrast to situations like Iraq where it was a deliberate regime change.

I think it boils down to this really, the chaos and damage to Iraq and Afghanistan’s infrastructure were caused by failures in planning for the aftermath of these invasions, in particular in Iraq you had monumentally stupid moves like disbanding the Iraqi army, which released hundreds of thousands of armed unemployed angry men on to the streets and there was also no anticipation of Shia vs Sunni violence. By contrast the chaos present in the SG verse is not earth’s fault, they are simply not powerful enough, or have enough resources to render aid and police the galaxy. The SGC does do humanitarian operations, we see a number of episodes where these take place, but earth does not the capabilities to meet what essentially would be a peace keeping and aid operation for the entire galaxy. What’s more the SGC are still having to face a number of threats out there, which means that they can’t even focus their full resources.

Perhaps the Jaffa and Tok’ra are partially to blame as well, arguably however they have their own problems. The Jaffa are spread across the galaxy, many still living in medieval poverty and are still divided. The Tok’ra have only just escaped from the brink of extinction.

The situation in the Milky Way was caused by a series of events few could plan for, and even if earth is partially responsible for these events, siding with groups like the Lucian Alliance will not improve things just as in Iraq the general societal collapse and violent bloodshed post invasion was partially the result of extremely poor planning of events that should have been anticipated, but that doesn’t excuse the people that sided with insurgents, who were vicious thugs who simply inflamed the situation further.

[KEK]

Until Anubis arrived on the scene and after the protected planets treaty, Earth was never in a fight for survival with the Goa'uld, we were actively antagonising them and assassinating them without provocation, destabilising their powers structures and creating power vacuums that cost thousands if not millions of lives. SG-1 were like reckless cowboys wandering the galaxy, righting wrongs as they saw them with no forethought toward the implications. While you can't blame Earth for the state the galaxy was left in after Anubis and the Replicators were defeated, you can still criticise their practises over the years, and rightly so. This is all before we even mention the Ori invasion we brought to the Milky Way that killed millions, and the absolute mess we made in Pegasus.

TEAM EARTH: INTERGALACTIC POLICE

drukha durkha

[hedwig]

Exactly. People seem to be assuming that this argument is about something it's not... all that's being claimed is that Telford's analysis of what Earth did was correct. It had nothing to do with us being evil or the Goa'uld being good guys or anything else. It's one thing that people are twisting to make it sound like something else.

I seem to recall a few episodes where SG1 promised to help in the recovery of some planets who were rid of their system lords or other evildoers, promising aid, food, etc. They did go help get rid of Cronus in "Double Jeopardy", after the original SG1 convinced the people of that planet the system lords weren't gods. Smaller scale than U.S./earth-wide assistance, but still assistance. They insisted on going back to Cimmeria to help Gairwyn and her people when they found out about the Goa'uld showing up and trying to take over after SG1 had destroyed Thor's Hammer. I'm pretty sure there were other similar episodes and probably times we just didn't see or hear about. In "Red Sky" the SGC was responsible for what happened to K'tau, and were more than willing to help fix the mistake; the help was not wanted, however.

Though, to be fair, Hammond played devil's advocate a few times and asked them if they really thought it was "our" job to go back and clean up the messes other planets made after we'd been there. And SG1 (at least) thought we should.

So I'm thinking Telford was right and wrong with what he said. And regardless of what he said, what makes the Lucien Alliance deserving of having the spoils of all the destruction? What makes them deserving of grabbing all of Destiny's technology and keeping it for themselves; if they got it they certainly wouldn't willingly share it with anybody else. I don't doubt they'd kill anybody who got in the way of them trying to take it for themselves. They just moved in and took over a lot of stuff left over by the Goa'uld and whoever else; they didn't earn anything they got. And I'm thinking there's a certain amount of brainwashing in Telford, what with the way he's ranting and raving about earth's mistakes and so forth. It sounds like something drilled into him by somebody else.

[jsonitsac]

We have to remember that the technology in question falls into one of three categories:
#1. Technology that would have otherwise been used against Earth.
#2. Technology freely given to the Tau'ri by aliens.
#3. Technology left laying around by the Ancients.

In the first instance Earth is perfectly justified in seizing, reverse engineering and producing our own versions as counter measures. That is technology that would have been used against us and our cousins in the stars.

In the second category if the Asgard wanted to give humans technology that is a decison made between two consenting parties. You can't blame the Tau'ri for the Asgard thinking that we're the "Fifth Race" and will be responsible for ensuring stability. If they Lucian Alliance didn't get it, TS to them.

Finally a lot of Ancient technology was just laying around abandoned. The Goa'uld developed their technology from it so what's wrong with us taking advantage of it. Arguably the Ancients, in the case of Atlantis, may have even wanted us to have it, after all the ATA gene is present amongst humans on Earth (could it be elsewhere, maybe, depending on the timing of when the Lanteans and Ra showed up on Earth).

[wargrafix]

While the intentions of Earth was noble, the people making the decision was the problem. Military people have conscience, but the direct orders can cause a problem. we see it all the time. But there are alot of bad eggs in the military mind you. We see it in the afgan/Iraq wars.

Tunani's people and the trinium debate was the classic example of the dilemma faced when the 2 collide .

NID represented the greed which if wasn't kept in check could have ruined the entire thing. Even jack and daniel realized the fine line that they walked. The nice part was Daneil met Amonet's child (harsises (?)) and the child showed that even he would be corruptible.

a did some work with an aid organization in afganistan and I do chuckle and shake my head whenever a military commander comes on the telly and says they have the support of the afgan people. Its like dude, 95% of the country doesn't like you, they are tolerating you.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Until Anubis arrived on the scene and after the protected planets treaty, Earth was never in a fight for survival with the Goa'uld, we were actively antagonising them and assassinating them without provocation, destabilising their powers structures and creating power vacuums that cost thousands if not millions of lives. SG-1 were like reckless cowboys wandering the galaxy, righting wrongs as they saw them with no forethought toward the implications. While you can't blame Earth for the state the galaxy was left in after Anubis and the Replicators were defeated, you can still criticise their practises over the years, and rightly so. This is all before we even mention the Ori invasion we brought to the Milky Way that killed millions, and the absolute mess we made in Pegasus.

Might I remind you that the system lords made several attempts to destroy earth while the treaty was in place. Firstly seasons 1 and 2 there was no protected planets treaty. In seasons 3 and 4 the SGC was concerned with first Sokar, then Apophis who were rogue Goa'uld at war with the system Lords, and in season 5 the Goa'uld sent an astroid towards earth. Real sodding friendly of them. After that the treaty was pretty much a moot point.

While the intentions of Earth was noble, the people making the decision was the problem. Military people have conscience, but the direct orders can cause a problem. we see it all the time. But there are alot of bad eggs in the military mind you. We see it in the afgan/Iraq wars.

Tunani's people and the trinium debate was the classic example of the dilemma faced when the 2 collide .

NID represented the greed which if wasn't kept in check could have ruined the entire thing. Even jack and daniel realized the fine line that they walked. The nice part was Daneil met Amonet's child (harsises (?)) and the child showed that even he would be corruptible.

a did some work with an aid organization in afganistan and I do chuckle and shake my head whenever a military commander comes on the telly and says they have the support of the afgan people. Its like dude, 95% of the country doesn't like you, they are tolerating you.

Lots of bad eggs in the military? Hundreds of thousands serve and the number of crimes are very very low, and those that have been committed have had their perpetrators punished. And if you are so against the military why are you watching military science fiction, endorsed by the US Airforce?

As for Afghanistan, its like dude, maybe you should do some sodding research. Because the Coalition forces ousting the Taliban in 2001 by assisting the Northern Alliance, and as we speak Afghan National Army Soldiers fight side by side with Coalition Forces. Afghanistan is divided down ethnic lines with the Pashtun south being the heart of the Taliban insurgency and the largely Tajik north. As it stands there are over 100,000 Afghan Natiobnal Army soldiers soldiers compared to an estimted 25,000 Taliban, many of them foreigner fighters, often Pakistani, so maybe there are quite a few Afghans who do support us.

[KEK]

Might I remind you that the system lords made several attempts to destroy earth while the treaty was in place. Firstly seasons 1 and 2 there was no protected planets treaty. In seasons 3 and 4 the SGC was concerned with first Sokar, then Anubis who were rogue Goa'uld at war with the system Lords, and in season 5 the Goa'uld sent an astroid towards earth. Real sodding friendly of them. After that the treaty was pretty much a moot point.

It really wasn't. The System Lords never attacked Earth, rogue Goa'uld did, but we continued attacking them through the gate, destabilising the balance of power in the galaxy with complete disregard for the consequences.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

It really wasn't. The System Lords never attacked Earth, rogue Goa'uld did, but we continued attacking them through the gate, destabilising the balance of power in the galaxy with complete disregard for the consequences.

Really, it's funny I seem to remember the antagonists of season 3 and 4 being Sokar and Apophis, neither who were members of the system lords during season 3 and 4, who both were at war with them, and were therefore not bound by treaties. Incidents like Failsafe and the events of Between Two Fires show how "committed" the Goa'uld were to the Protected Planets treaty anyway. Ie if they could find any loophole or force someone else to do their job for them they would.

The largest attack mounted on earth was by Anubis, who was a fully fledged member of the system lords, having rejoined in Summit and was as such bound by the Protected Planets Treaty. Further the treaty makes no onus on the part of earth to not attack the Goa'uld, it simply states that the Goa'uld will not attack earth. The original part of the treaty stated in return earth would have to remove its stargate, this part was negotiated away in return for evidence against Nirti. But the protected planets treaty makes no mention of anything else outside earth.

[KEK]

I never said it did. I'm saying that Earth was reckless in it's activities through the gate. Randomly killing off Goa'uld did nothing to help the galaxy at large, it only made things worse, but we weren't interested in consequences unless they affected us. SG-1 were effectively given carte blanche to cowboy around the galaxy with little forethought toward the implications of what they were doing. The assassination of Cronus for example, was completely pointless, and did more harm than good.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I never said it did. I'm saying that Earth was reckless in it's activities through the gate. Randomly killing off Goa'uld did nothing to help the galaxy at large, it only made things worse, but we weren't interested in consequences unless they affected us. SG-1 were effectively given carte blanche to cowboy around the galaxy with little forethought toward the implications of what they were doing. The assassination of Cronus for example, was completely pointless, and did more harm than good.

Except Cronus wasn't assassinated. Assassination is the targeted killing of another, Cronus was simply killed in the midst of battle, indeed he was killed as he was busy trying to kill Teal'c. That entire situation arose because the alternate SG1 got captured while routinely exploring and SG1 had to be sent in to rescue them to prevent any of earths secrets or the android technology from falling into Goa'uld hands.

The alternate would be for the SGC to have tossed a nuke back to the planet after the events of Tin Man, and that sort of action doesn't earn you any friends. What you have here is a classic situation of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. As in the real world, ISAF forces are currently bogged down fighting a hard insurgency in Afghanistan, faced with the prospect of having to flush down time, blood and money to stop the violence that may take years. And yet if the forces pulled out or had not entered Afghanistan in the first place, the country would be a utterly chaotic mess, with no government, and a hotbed breeding ground for Islamic fundamentalism to destabilise the region. Too often in life there isn't a right option, every action has consequences and in politics and war those actions will frequently end in reactions that are not expected or pleasant.