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  1. #1
    Major IrishPisano's Avatar
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    Default Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    since the 1 thread about Wray is - by the OP - not for debating the merits of the character, and the other thread is about her relationship with the woman back on earth, i think its time to open the books and debate the merits of the character......


    i personally find Wray to be in WAY over her head on Destiny, borderline incompetent, completely lacking in self-esteem, power-hungry, corruptible, and incredibly weak as a person, leader, commander, and "relationship partner"

    she is the IOA liason on-board Destiny and, i believe, thusly in charge of all civilians on board
    that makes her one of the 3 senior personnel along with Young and Rush
    thus she is, but position, a commanding leader

    however, she shown at times to be an incompetent and selfish leader more concerned with her own personal agenda than the overall mission (which is to get everyone back to Earth as safely as possible)
    case and point 1: the lottery. both Rush and Young refused to allow their names to be included in the lottery. granted, Rush did it out of selfish reasons of staying with Destiny. Young had no personal reason to stay on board. in fact, the refugees would have been better suited having Young accompany them given his survival expertise and training... nevertheless, he gave up his spot so that one more person could go - that is leadership. Wray adamantly demanded that she be included in the lottery - thus allowing for the possibility of allowing one of her personnel to die. that is not leadership at all

    case and point 2: the mutiny. pre-mutiny she reported to her ppl at the IOA that she was uncertain of which side to "sign up" for in the rush-young battle... a good and proper leader would take the side of the crew and work to resolve the conflict before it got out of hand. instead, she stepped back, and waited to see who had the best chance of winning before decided to join his side. playing politics with the lives of your crew is definitely bad leadership.
    case and point 2b: the mutiny. the crew is best served by having all sides: military, scientists, and everyone else working together to survive and hopefully return to earth. the scientists obviouslly dealing with unlocking Destiny and getting enough power to dial home. the military to ensuring the safety and survival of everyone, and maintaining order in the event that people contract cabin fever... what does Wray do in the Rush-Young conflict? does she help resolve and prevent the conflict from igniting? No. She in fact throws gasoline on the fire and works with Rush to mutiny against Young. not only does this showcase poor leadership by endangering the lives of her fellow refugees - but it also showcases her selfish desire for power.... just reference her speech where she says that every military in the world reports to a civilian. That is not entirely true (the military of Great Britain reports to the Queen, for instance). and she wanted to be that civilian... the problem, though, is that Young does not report directly to a civilian by design of his office. he reports to either the commander of the SGC or directly to General O'Neill (we have not been told the entire command structure of the Stargate program and HWSecurity yet). it is General O'Neill who reports to a civilian, and that civilian is the President of the United States.
    So not only is Wray trying to undermine Young's authority, but also the President's as well.

    case and point 3: the most recent episode in which she returned to earth via the LRCSs... and her "flipping out" on her partner because she was gone too long... it was Wray's idea in the first place to send her partner out for a few hours to get out and unwind, and then she gets angry and starts yelling at her when she is gone for a few hours, supposedly all worried that something might have happened... yes, she may have been genuinely concerned for her partner, but i believe that Wray was more concerned about being left alone paralyzed in a wheelchair on a respirator (something, mind you, that she agreed to do) and not having control over her partner

    case and point 4: her overly emotional state of mind while on-board
    initial despair is definitely understandable upon learning that you are stranded on-board a damaged ship locked on a one-way auto-pilot course traversing hundreds of galaxies with limited food and water and not enough power to get home
    but as a senior member of the refugee contingent, it is up to her to get over that despair, step up, and start doing the job that the situation warrants which is to contribute in any way possible to unlocking the ship and getting everyone home.
    but she rarely does this... she spends a lot of time wallowing in her forlorned grief at being away from earth and home, far moreso than Chloe who never had any idea what she was getting into, no idea about what running htrough the gate meant, and losing her father, and being cut off from her mother, etc... if anything, Chloe is more suited to being the IOA liason than Wray



    Wray needs to grow-up, mature, and start being a responsible and competent leader
    or she needs to resign her post and appoint someone else


    i personally dislike the character because she is incompetent, unprofessional, and lacking in any intelligence and wisdom pertinent to the refugee situation on-board Destiny

    however, i like having a character like this on the show, because in SG1 and SGA, the characters were all a bit too unbelievably competent... only with McKay did we start to see some real flaws...
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

  2. #2
    Colonel Spimman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPisano View Post
    Wray needs to grow-up, mature, and start being a responsible and competent leader
    or she needs to resign her post and appoint someone else.
    So do Young and Rush. This show is based on a group of people that weren't cut out for what they were thrown into are just trying to stay above water.

    That being said...I guess I disagree but mainly in perspective...let me explain.

    I agree that Wray isn't a great leader, her motives are questionable, I don't think she is overly power hungry but maybe a little and I don't really like her character but I see these all as positives. Her character is getting deeper all the time, she plays the antagonist sometimes, but I think overall she wants what is best for the crew. Her acting skills help her create a believable character that you kind of love to hate, and that is what she is intended to be for the time being.

    So while I don't like Wray, I enjoy not liking Wray...if that makes sense.
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  3. #3
    Major IrishPisano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Spimman View Post
    So do Young and Rush. This show is based on a group of people that weren't cut out for what they were thrown into are just trying to stay above water.

    That being said...I guess I disagree but mainly in perspective...let me explain.

    I agree that Wray isn't a great leader, her motives are questionable, I don't think she is overly power hungry but maybe a little and I don't really like her character but I see these all as positives. Her character is getting deeper all the time, she plays the antagonist sometimes, but I think overall she wants what is best for the crew. Her acting skills help her create a believable character that you kind of love to hate, and that is what she is intended to be for the time being.

    So while I don't like Wray, I enjoy not liking Wray...if that makes sense.
    i agree she is getting deeper, which is good, and i may be proven wrong eventually, or she may change...

    i wonder, though, what do you think - based on her actions to date - she considers to be "in the best interests of the crew"?
    so far we've seen her actually do things in OPPOSITION to the best interests of the crew including: instigating a mutiny against the one group of people most capable of ensuring survival... AND... refusing to step out of the "refugee lottery"... certainly stepping aside to improve the odds of your personnel going to safety is in better interest of them, than maintaining your inclusion and thus decreasing their chances...



    also, how do you justify saying that young and rush need to grow up and mature?
    yes, Rush needs to learn to trust Young, and be open with everything he is finding out about Desinty and putting aside his personal agendas
    and, yes, Young needs to learn how to work alongside someone as machiavellian as Rush

    but other than that 1 incident of Young leaving Rush on the desert planet....... what else has Young done to be considered in need of maturity?
    same question with rush.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

  4. #4
    Colonel Spimman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    One major difference between SGU and the to previous SG series is that SGU doesn't have characters that everyone loves, the characters are flawed and I see that as a strenth.

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPisano View Post
    i wonder, though, what do you think - based on her actions to date - she considers to be "in the best interests of the crew"?
    so far we've seen her actually do things in OPPOSITION to the best interests of the crew including: instigating a mutiny against the one group of people most capable of ensuring survival... AND... refusing to step out of the "refugee lottery"... certainly stepping aside to improve the odds of your personnel going to safety is in better interest of them, than maintaining your inclusion and thus decreasing their chances...
    She was trying to invoke civilian rule on Destiny as opposed to military rule, after she saw Young try to become judge, jury and executioner with Rush. I'm not saying she was right, but she was doing what she thought was right.

    She thought the people going to the planet needed leadership and without Young or Rush going she would be the most experienced in that regard, random lottery is fair but not necessary the best chance of survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPisano View Post
    also, how do you justify saying that young and rush need to grow up and mature?
    yes, Rush needs to learn to trust Young, and be open with everything he is finding out about Desinty and putting aside his personal agendas
    and, yes, Young needs to learn how to work alongside someone as machiavellian as Rush

    but other than that 1 incident of Young leaving Rush on the desert planet....... what else has Young done to be considered in need of maturity?
    same question with rush.
    Young cheated on his wife with an officer under his chain of command, punched a fellow officer, defied general O'Neil's orders, left Rush for dead (attempted murder), covered up evidence, has Eli spying on people...need I go on? Rush has acted selfish on soooo many occasions. Put's his interests first, is rude and short, demeaning...need I go on? That being said I love Rush and I'm liking Young more and more all the time.

    My whole point is that having major flaws in our characters and having gray areas or morality makes the show really interesting and unpredictable.
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  5. #5
    Lieutenant Colonel xxxevilgrinxxx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Spimman View Post
    ...
    So while I don't like Wray, I enjoy not liking Wray...if that makes sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spimman View Post
    ...
    My whole point is that having major flaws in our characters and having gray areas or morality makes the show really interesting and unpredictable.
    Yep, that makes perfect sense to me. I love having charcters that I can not like, as well as characters that are questionable.



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  6. #6
    Major IrishPisano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Spimman View Post
    One major difference between SGU and the to previous SG series is that SGU doesn't have characters that everyone loves, the characters are flawed and I see that as a strenth.
    i whole-heartedly agree


    She was trying to invoke civilian rule on Destiny as opposed to military rule, after she saw Young try to become judge, jury and executioner with Rush. I'm not saying she was right, but she was doing what she thought was right.
    what she thought was right, though, was ultimately wrong
    Young was in command (i believe) of Icarus Base - which meant that he was in command of all civilian personnel assigned to Icarus Base... when the refugees ended up on the Destiny, Young's command transferred with him as he was the ranking military officer commander of Icarus Base... if Telford had made it through, he would have been in command instead, as that was his duty assignment...
    since Young's command transferred with him, he was still in command of all civilian personnel as they were all from Icarus Base and Destiny became an extension of the Stargate program...
    Wray was right in that the American military answers to a civilian, but that civilian is not her, nor could it ever be her while she is not President of the United States.
    Since the refugees on Destiny can maintain communication with Earth, Young reports to O'Neill
    if communication were to be permanently cut off then things MIGHT change - but that is doubtful

    plus, from a standpoint of assigning people duties relevant to the situation and reflective of their strengths and training - the refugees are best served by having Young in command

    so, in the end, what Wray did was wrong
    i also believe she was acting out of her selfish self-aggrandizing lust for power rather than what was best for the crew... i believe her loyalties lie with herself and the IOA, and that's it...


    She thought the people going to the planet needed leadership and without Young or Rush going she would be the most experienced in that regard, random lottery is fair but not necessary the best chance of survival.
    that was definitely NOT what her intentions came off as when asking Young to keep her in the lottery.
    and leadership from someone like Greer is better suited to a refugee situation than leadership from someone who's sat behind a desk for most of her adult life... she, to my knowledge, has little to no survival training and thus is unqualified for command of a survival situation


    Young cheated on his wife with an officer under his chain of command, punched a fellow officer, defied general O'Neil's orders, left Rush for dead (attempted murder), covered up evidence, has Eli spying on people...need I go on? Rush has acted selfish on soooo many occasions. Put's his interests first, is rude and short, demeaning...need I go on? That being said I love Rush and I'm liking Young more and more all the time.
    defying orders does not make one immature, in fact, O'Neill defied MANY orders in his time, as did Sheppard, Mitchell, Daniel, Carter, Hammond, etc....
    i agree that Young was wrong for the Rush incident
    and fraternizing is wrong and against the UCMJ

    however, his having Eli maintaining surveillance on people is warranted given the situations:
    1. Rush never fully divulging everything and making command decisions on his own
    2. people attempting to mutiny

    but hey, let's save that for a Young thread.....

    My whole point is that having major flaws in our characters and having gray areas or morality makes the show really interesting and unpredictable.
    indeed it does

    and i think that this is going to be an area in which SGU surpasses SG1

    i like that the character of Wray was written as incompetent, selfish, power-hungry, and corruptible
    but i do not like incompetent, selfish, power-hungry, corruptible people
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

  7. #7
    Major IrishPisano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    Yep, that makes perfect sense to me. I love having charcters that I can not like, as well as characters that are questionable.
    i like having characters that i would dislike in real life but only if they are believable
    like Carmella Soprano..... i would abhor her in real life - in fact i dated a girl in high school once who was exactly like Carm - right down to the hand gestures and vocal mannerisms.... in the end i realized that i could not STAND her because of her personality and attitude
    so Carm worked for me because - while i disliked the "person" of Carmella Soprano - she was realistic and i could relate to that

    contrast that with Nurse Jackie..... Jackie is portrayed as pushing nearly every legal and moral boundary, and after 3 or 4 episodes i had to stop watching the show in disgust because i simply did not find it believable that someone could be the way she was
    the show's a dark comedy
    and thus not meant to be taken completely seriously
    but it is packaged in a manner as if we are supposed to take it seriously (comedies can be taken seriously and still make you laugh like My Cousin Vinny or Ghostbusters)
    and i found myself completely unable to do that because i found the whole concept of the show preposterous and beyond any suspension of disbelief


    SGU to me finally captured the realism that was completely missing in SGA and sometimes present in SG1
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

  8. #8
    Colonel Spimman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    I agree that Wray was ultimately wrong in he rattempt to overthrow the military leadership, but I can somewhat see that side of things and can definitely see how Rush felt...not that I agree. That's what's so great about the characters and writing is that an argument can be made for both sides, it isn't clearly black and white.

    Wray still has a ways to go in terms of personal growth and character growth, I have seen quite a bit of growth in Young who I originally was not a fan of...he is really growing on me. For all his flaws I have been a Rush fan from day 1.

    Eli is more of the SG-1 or SG-A throwback type character as he is all around likable and has no major character flaws and I like him too!
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  9. #9
    Major IrishPisano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    i think Eli is beyond a character arc for right now.... i mean leaving your mother dying on earth to jet set across the galaxy only to be thrown against your will halfway across the UNIVERSE all the while knowing that you have to lie to your dying mother about it..... that should make for some pretty good drama for Eli

    however, i think that would be too close to Chloe's situation so maybe that's why they ignored it

    the only other arcs i can see Eli having are:
    1. saying F-U to Rush and Young and giving up completely
    or
    2. taking on a more serious personality and contributing in ways that would impress Greer.....

    but i think those are best saved for another season or two
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

  10. #10
    Colonel Spimman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Leaving his mother dying? Not exactly...

    By joining the Stargate program he was able to secure that she would receive the best medical care possible where it was implied she was getting far from that before he joined.

    Also, he thought he'd be able to visit from time to time and call too, he didn't know about getting stuck on Destiny.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Spimman View Post
    She was trying to invoke civilian rule on Destiny as opposed to military rule, after she saw Young try to become judge, jury and executioner with Rush. I'm not saying she was right, but she was doing what she thought was right.
    You mean like she did to Young when she put him through that show-trial and all but demanded that Chloe play along with her pre-determined script? So much for civilians and democracy when she pulls a page right ouf of Communist China or a Junta like Burma. Also, no matter if civilian or military, every ship, every company, every institution where lives are on the line, all power and command is vested into a single person so that when orders are made, actions are executed and not questioned.

    Wray, as of mid-season 1, is just a power-hungry harpy that wants to be in charge. Does anyone seriously think she would've abided by a civilian-led ship that she wasn't in charge of? She's already demonstrated that when she doesn't like how things are run, she simply stages a coup and takes over.

  12. #12
    Lieutenant Colonel xxxevilgrinxxx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Holmes View Post
    You mean like she did to Young when she put him through that show-trial and all but demanded that Chloe play along with her pre-determined script? So much for civilians and democracy when she pulls a page right ouf of Communist China or a Junta like Burma. Also, no matter if civilian or military, every ship, every company, every institution where lives are on the line, all power and command is vested into a single person so that when orders are made, actions are executed and not questioned.

    Wray, as of mid-season 1, is just a power-hungry harpy that wants to be in charge. Does anyone seriously think she would've abided by a civilian-led ship that she wasn't in charge of? She's already demonstrated that when she doesn't like how things are run, she simply stages a coup and takes over.
    I do think that even in the event of a civilian leadership aboard Destiny (of which she wasn't the leader), that she would engineer it through coup or otherwise to put herself in charge. Not that she's particularly suited to lead and, in fact, it's been shown that she's not, but she wants control for something, most likely a huge amount of pressure from home. It's interesting that the IOA didn't promote her but that when she's on Destiny? I think someone as politically savvy as Wray would see the meaning in that pretty clearly. She has this one little moment when she's in a position where people will listen to her, and now she has to deliver.



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  13. #13
    Major IrishPisano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    I do think that even in the event of a civilian leadership aboard Destiny (of which she wasn't the leader), that she would engineer it through coup or otherwise to put herself in charge. Not that she's particularly suited to lead and, in fact, it's been shown that she's not, but she wants control for something, most likely a huge amount of pressure from home. It's interesting that the IOA didn't promote her but that when she's on Destiny? I think someone as politically savvy as Wray would see the meaning in that pretty clearly. She has this one little moment when she's in a position where people will listen to her, and now she has to deliver.
    i wonder..... was she originally assigned to Destiny before the 9th chevron was unlocked (like Telford was) or was she merely the IOA's rep on Icarus?
    what was her pre-explosion duty station?

    i think the IOA wants to control the Destiny and all things Stargate, thus they want Wray in charge because they can control her and thus control Destiny...... i think that she's incapable of realizing (unlike Woolsey) that she's just an IOA pawn
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

  14. #14
    Colonel Spimman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Wray's loyalty to the IOA seems to be wavering a bit
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    Not that she's particularly suited to lead and, in fact, it's been shown that she's not, but she wants control for something, most likely a huge amount of pressure from home. It's interesting that the IOA didn't promote her but that when she's on Destiny? I think someone as politically savvy as Wray would see the meaning in that pretty clearly. She has this one little moment when she's in a position where people will listen to her, and now she has to deliver.
    I fail to see how the IOA can put pressure on her. She's half a universe away from any direct influence, with no certain way of getting home, with nothing in her job worth returning to i.e. she's suck in middle management (from all indications, prior to getting stuck across the universe). The only thing the IOA could do to get Wray to do anything is to blackmail her, using Sharon as leverage.

    IMO, seizing power on Destiny is her only opportunity to get anywhere in her career, and she would have done it eventually, with or without the IOA's blessing.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
    I fail to see how the IOA can put pressure on her. She's half a universe away from any direct influence, with no certain way of getting home, with nothing in her job worth returning to i.e. she's suck in middle management (from all indications, prior to getting stuck across the universe). The only thing the IOA could do to get Wray to do anything is to blackmail her, using Sharon as leverage.
    IMO, seizing power on Destiny is her only opportunity to get anywhere in her career, and she would have done it eventually, with or without the IOA's blessing.
    Not so. You're right in that she was stuck in middle-management and not going anywhere, but the IOA dude gave her plenty of incentive in "Life", suggesting that there was substantial rewards in it for her if she was able to get the ship home. Imagine how her star would soar if she were the one in charge when Destiny comes out of FTL/Supergate/Spatial anomoly back in the Milky Way.

    She's out for personal gain and nothing but; however, Pain may have given her something to think about: consequences to her actions. As far as we know, both Rush and Wray got off relativly lightly for staging their coup, but this last episode may drive home that there are some people who aren't as willing as Young to just let that slide...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Holmes View Post
    Not so. You're right in that she was stuck in middle-management and not going anywhere, but the IOA dude gave her plenty of incentive in "Life", suggesting that there was substantial rewards in it for her if she was able to get the ship home. Imagine how her star would soar if she were the one in charge when Destiny comes out of FTL/Supergate/Spatial anomoly back in the Milky Way.

    She's out for personal gain and nothing but; however, Pain may have given her something to think about: consequences to her actions. As far as we know, both Rush and Wray got off relativly lightly for staging their coup, but this last episode may drive home that there are some people who aren't as willing as Young to just let that slide...
    I don't dispute that she'll be richly rewarded if she happens to be in charge when/if Destiny gets home. But that isn't my point. Rewards as an incentive can only work if the goal is actually practically attainable, whereas blackmail is a win-win for the blackmailer.

    We, as the audience, know that they'll find a way home sooner or later, but her character has no such guarantees of success, especially when there are so many variables that are out of her control. All the characters have accepted that they may never get home, and to an extent, external influences don't matter as much.

    Wray may take a "reward as incentive" opportunity at a later point when getting home seems somewhat practical and results are more important than being showy, but until there is more than some far off hope/wish/dream, that scenario doesn't fly for me. Until that point, I stand by my "blackmail as the only practical motivator" against her, but that she would have pursued power of her own will anyway.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    and now to be running around demanding answers from Young on matters that he said are strictly military is ridiculous
    yes, young should have informed Wray what Rush was doing

    but Wray had no business asking, nor any right to know, what was going on between Young and Telford

    she should understand that
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

  19. #19
    First Lieutenant Shai Hulud's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Wray is the most annoying character on the series thus far. She doesnt seem to have any real purpose on board Destiny and the whole lesbian lover storyline played out on Earth via the stones has been the most soporific storyline that the writers have come up. If they decided to kill her off somehow then I for one wouldnt be bothered.
    Bless the Maker and all His Water. Bless the coming and going of Him, May His passing cleanse the world. May He keep the world for his people.

  20. #20
    Major IrishPisano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camille Wray - Character Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
    Wray is the most annoying character on the series thus far. She doesnt seem to have any real purpose on board Destiny and the whole lesbian lover storyline played out on Earth via the stones has been the most soporific storyline that the writers have come up. If they decided to kill her off somehow then I for one wouldnt be bothered.
    i find her highly annoying
    but i do not agree that she does not have any real purpose
    her purpose is to be in charge of the civilians.....

    the problem is, she thinks that that includes military personnel

    she's annoying as hell

    but also interesting
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

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