Two Minutes to Midnight (521)

[Crichiel]

Whoa...you're jumping the gun there...wait and see ...I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised...and no I don't know what's going to happen..honest

No no no. Not jumping the gun. I said over and over, I would have to wait and see because all my fears might prove unfounded. It's why I didn't even really want to post until I saw the finale. But, I thought, as this is a thread on THIS episode, I should look at it separately. Plus, LoneStar said I could post negative comments and not be killed!! (actually 'thank you' to both you and stars for disagreeing without totally skewering me. )

[LtColCarter]

No no no. Not jumping the gun. I said over and over, I would have to wait and see because all my fears might prove unfounded. It's why I didn't even really want to post until I saw the finale. But, I thought, as this is a thread on THIS episode, I should look at it separately. Plus, LoneStar said I could post negative comments and not be killed!! (actually 'thank you' to both you and stars for disagreeing without totally skewering me. )

*gets skewers ready*

[starg8fans]

Hey, that's what 'discussion' means in my book, people presenting their different opinions. There's nothing more boring than everybody agreeing how awesome an episode was, so this was great. And your points were well supported, which is the right kind of criticism. Where we disagree is mostly a matter of perception, and we're all entitled to our own POVs.

BTW, one thing that had me a bit confused was when they went back to the opening scene in the middle of the episode. For a moment I was really confused, wondering whether Pestilence had revived that woman, and was replaying that death scene. I don't really see a reason why they had to use that same scene twice, anybody else got an idea about that?

[LoneStar1836]

BTW, one thing that had me a bit confused was when they went back to the opening scene in the middle of the episode. For a moment I was really confused, wondering whether Pestilence had revived that woman, and was replaying that death scene. I don't really see a reason why they had to use that same scene twice, anybody else got an idea about that?

They were doing one of those tricks where they start the story as some point in the action and then roll back the clock to show you the events leading up to that scene...thus the scene was played twice when time caught back up to where the episode opened. I'm guessing you missed the "12 hours earlier" or whatever the number of hours was caption at the bottom.

-Bobby walking. I wanted Bobby walking again, don't get me wrong. But Crowley threw that bonus in as an afterthought, and that's what it felt like story-wise to me, too. Like, "Oh wait, we need Bobby walking for the final battle. Quick! Think of a way he could be instantly cured without Cas."

I agree. That's essentially what I thought when they did that for Bobby. Obviously we need Bobby up and around, and there were only a limited number of means for that to happen so in a way I can accept it, but for a demon to be so uh...charitable. I know he has a motivation for doing this if that is in fact why Crowley has been helping them.

I quite liked Crowley when we first met him but for me he was, at times, too convenient in these last eps. Him revealing the info about the rings I'm totally cool with because I always figured that was where the story would head...Lucifer being trapped, but meh there was just some things that came too easy...like finding the last two horsemen. I know it had to be done quickly since they only had a couple of eps left, but I guess I just didn't like the brothers having to rely so heavily upon a demon to get the job done.

-Bobby and Dean talking about Sam. Bobby said they've been riding him since he was 12, thinking that he had this darkness in him. Sorry. I don't buy it, it doesn't track. Since he was TWELVE?! We saw scenes from when Sam was 12 and Dean wasn't riding him hard, he was still very protective of him. And Sam is the one they constantly make fun of for being so 'girly', for sharing his feelings, for being so sympathetic with the victims (remember Dean's view of him in Tall Tales?), for always trying to save everyone. He didn't leave the family because he was dark and violent, he left because he DIDN'T want that kind of life that Dean and John seemed so comfortable with. My impression was that they never thought of Sam as potentially evil until John whispered it to Dean when Sam was 23 years old!

The kernel of truth in Bobby's statement, however, was that they have been hard on him.....LATELY. Since Dean got back from Hell, they have been horribly and at times unfairly critical of Sam, but I didn't see that before Dean was gone.

Them being hard on Sam all these years is understandable, but like LizzieAnne, I don't think Bobby was implying they were worried about some darkness in him from a young age. That totally goes against established cannon, and I would totally be mad if they tried to go back and suggest that.

But this bemoaning of Sam has been bothering me for the later half of the season. I get that they are still wary of what he did last season, but just how much doesn he have to do this season to prove to them that he's changed. What he did last season was motivated by Dean's death and his need for revenge. Those two factors are gone, imo. Sure it grew into him enjoying the rush of the power it gave him (which is why he could slip again), but they still act like Sam can't be trusted or that his head's not in the game. Sam was forced into a situation where he had to use demon blood again but afterwards he willingly let himself be locked up to get clean. If he's so questionable, they should have written that as more of a struggle to get Sam to comply. Here he is with all that power again and he chooses to give it up without a fight.

If Sam says yes in the last ep, it's not because he's weak and angry, it's because he's doing what he feels needs to be done for the greater good. Sam shouldn't get complacent about what he did, but I think the writers have piled on more of this narrative than necessary in the dialogue. As a viewer of this season, Sam has been written as the strongest character of the bunch, imo. Dean, Bobby, and Cas have been moping around with their problems and doubts while Sam has carried on with the weight of the last season on his back. Bobby needs to see Sam in action saving people to get past the doubt that Sam's not totally in this to help people?? Meh, I didn't like that.


As to the final episode, I'm in the wait and see mode. I think it will be good (this is the culmination of five years after all and I think Kripke will do it justice) and don't think Dean will be pushed aside. "The one who begins it is the one who will end it" or something to that affect. Then again they could wiggle out of that as meaning Dean would only be there to stop the actual Apocalypse and bring about the shinny happy world the angels want and not just mean putting a temporary halt on it. Only 50+ hours till we find out!

[Crichiel]

Oops. To be totally fair, I just re-watched the scene with Dean and Bobby this morning, and I DID catch that they said 'Sam's been pulling people out of burning buildings since he was 12-years-old'. Not that he's been potentially evil since then. Although to me, the conversation still implies that they have been hard on Sam for years. And I still say it is reallly just this last year and a half or so that they've been so unfair. In season 2, Sam thought he was evil and Dean was the one insisting that he wasn't. But, the dialogue was vague enough that I could see an argument that Bobby only meant that they've been tough recently.

And I agree, LoneStar, that Sam has basically been the one to carry all of them through this last season. While I found it really fascinating to watch Dean's temporary slide into despair the past 6 months or so (especially because it showcased Jensen's acting skills), seeing him so unDean-like just made it that much cooler in Hammer of the Gods when he had rebounded. But, poor Sam! It wasn't just Dean, it was everyone around him and I think that's why I was so frustrated with Castiel's anger/despair. EVERYONE was just giving up and I would have liked to have had ONE character that still believed in God and his Plan! Or at least in their ability to overcome Michael's and Lucifer's plans for them.

[LizzieAnne]

BTW, one thing that had me a bit confused was when they went back to the opening scene in the middle of the episode. For a moment I was really confused, wondering whether Pestilence had revived that woman, and was replaying that death scene. I don't really see a reason why they had to use that same scene twice, anybody else got an idea about that?

They were doing one of those tricks where they start the story as some point in the action and then roll back the clock to show you the events leading up to that scene...thus the scene was played twice when time caught back up to where the episode opened. I'm guessing you missed the "12 hours earlier" or whatever the number of hours was caption at the bottom.

I think it's to make the opening scene have more impact...and I suppose it did have that effect although I can see how it could be seen as confusing. It made me think. It's one of those things which gets better on a second viewing.

Them being hard on Sam all these years is understandable, but like LizzieAnne, I don't think Bobby was implying they were worried about some darkness in him from a young age. That totally goes against established cannon, and I would totally be mad if they tried to go back and suggest that.

But this bemoaning of Sam has been bothering me for the later half of the season. I get that they are still wary of what he did last season, but just how much doesn he have to do this season to prove to them that he's changed. What he did last season was motivated by Dean's death and his need for revenge. Those two factors are gone, imo. Sure it grew into him enjoying the rush of the power it gave him (which is why he could slip again), but they still act like Sam can't be trusted or that his head's not in the game. Sam was forced into a situation where he had to use demon blood again but afterwards he willingly let himself be locked up to get clean. If he's so questionable, they should have written that as more of a struggle to get Sam to comply. Here he is with all that power again and he chooses to give it up without a fight.

If Sam says yes in the last ep, it's not because he's weak and angry, it's because he's doing what he feels needs to be done for the greater good. Sam shouldn't get complacent about what he did, but I think the writers have piled on more of this narrative than necessary in the dialogue. As a viewer of this season, Sam has been written as the strongest character of the bunch, imo. Dean, Bobby, and Cas have been moping around with their problems and doubts while Sam has carried on with the weight of the last season on his back. Bobby needs to see Sam in action saving people to get past the doubt that Sam's not totally in this to help people?? Meh, I didn't like that.

Very nicely put...I thought I was the only one who was thinking all of that...

As to the final episode, I'm in the wait and see mode. I think it will be good (this is the culmination of five years after all and I think Kripke will do it justice) and don't think Dean will be pushed aside. "The one who begins it is the one who will end it" or something to that affect. Then again they could wiggle out of that as meaning Dean would only be there to stop the actual Apocalypse and bring about the shinny happy world the angels want and not just mean putting a temporary halt on it. Only 50+ hours till we find out!

I'm thinking that there've been so many shady dealings by the angels and Sam and Dean being mislead at every turn...that 'The One who begins it , ends it' statement could be yet more lies and deceptions....to get Dean to say 'Yes'. So yes...plenty of wiggle room there.

Oops. To be totally fair, I just re-watched the scene with Dean and Bobby this morning, and I DID catch that they said 'Sam's been pulling people out of burning buildings since he was 12-years-old'. Not that he's been potentially evil since then. Although to me, the conversation still implies that they have been hard on Sam for years. And I still say it is reallly just this last year and a half or so that they've been so unfair. In season 2, Sam thought he was evil and Dean was the one insisting that he wasn't. But, the dialogue was vague enough that I could see an argument that Bobby only meant that they've been tough recently.

Yep.I think the conversation there does imply that they've been hard on Sam for years...but I agree with that though. But I think that's different to saying that he's evil. I think those two things are separate. Yes I agree that Dean never thought Sam had evil inside him in the earlier Seasons...but he's always been tough on him...it's there even in the first ep in the 1st Season....not in a nasty way but it's still there. Maybe when we get the loooong hellatus I'll make a list..