What if Wray had use non violent passive resistance against Col Young?

[jelgate]

I think a better question would be what if Wray had used violence?

She would be just as bad as Young. Although if Wray used violence or not is a controversal subject

[Gollumpus]

I think Young could have been won over by discussion. It might have taken a few meetings, but I think it could have been done.

I tend to view Young as playing the bull-headed officer role who shows signs of being able to alter his position if presented with a strong enough case against, and that case is presented forcefully. I use as an example of my meaning that scene in SG-1 where Siler reports to Hammond that the broken gate can be repaired in 24 hours. Hammond responds, "You've got 12." Siler replies, "No Sir, it doesn't work that way!" and gives a concise report as to why he can not do as Hammond wishes.

We've seen a couple of instances where Young has pulled back from a course of action once he has received additional information, most recently in "Space", where he goes along with Rush's view (after Eli stresses it) that not firing the weapons was the better alternative.

What we will likely see over the next few episodes is the diplomatic course. There will be town hall meetings where arguments will be put forward and eventually a resolution will be achieved.

regards,
G.

[garhkal]

While i think them doing the sit-in/work stoppage thing might have been a better way i also don't see young lettimg them get away with it for long before forcing them with might/threat of force...

[nx01a]

Her people certainly were willing to use violence. The one who had the gun on Eli, for example.

[Gollumpus]

While i think them doing the sit-in/work stoppage thing might have been a better way i also don't see young lettimg them get away with it for long before forcing them with might/threat of force...

But forcing them to do what? If they sat there in the main dining hall refusing to do anything how would that have an adverse effect on Young? What would it force him to do? Eli may or may not join them. Rush might do it, provided it fit in with some plan he was hatching, but after a while he would lose patience with it and go do something interesting.

If ship's systems started to malfunction then Young might take notice. Assuming Riley hasn't been killed off he would be forced to mention the problems to the resisters and point out how their butts were on the line as much as his and the military types.

Young: "There's no air! Well, I guess we all suffocate. BTW, the hydroponic garden you were putting together has dried up and died. Oh, and the power systems are failing, but that shouldn't be a problem as the Smurfs are about to board. I guess I'm licked. You guys are so smart..."
regards,
G.

[Tuvok]

I think a better question would be what if Wray had used violence?

A lot more dead Civies . If you seek a poodle at a pissed off Rockwieler , prepare for one dead Poodle.

[Daro]

I agree that the civilian faction might have organized and tried diplomacy as a group first. Up until then, it's just Wray, sometimes Rush, and the other scientists. To be fair, I can't blame Wray for believing that diplomacy wouldn't work; not only does Young often ignore her attempts to talk to him about civilian concerns, but he has threatened her once at least.

As for Rush, he once again did not think his clever plan all the way through by thinking the aliens would give up. But what he did do, other than help the rebellion, was create a situation where he neither had to face certain death by telling Young about the implant, nor did he have to let the aliens destroy Destiny. If Rush had not locked Eli and Young out in this episode, the aliens would have breached the shields most likely. Rush's concerns for civilian authority are there, but he had another motive. Young probably wouldn't have killed Rush over the implant if he'd told him before, but that's just speculation. I imagine the fact that Rush didn't let Young and Scott die when he easily could have helped temper Young's anger.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tuvok,

A lot more dead Civies . If you seek a poodle at a pissed off Rockwieler , prepare for one dead Poodle.

Not necessarily. Standard Poodles are hunting dogs. They're about the size of dalmations.

[Tuvok]

Tuvok,



Not necessarily. Standard Poodles are hunting dogs. They're about the size of dalmations.

Yeah , but a pissed off Rockwieler? Bye bye hunting dog. Rottwielers tear and rent. Vicious.

[Cory Holmes]

To be fair, I can't blame Wray for believing that diplomacy wouldn't work; not only does Young often ignore her attempts to talk to him about civilian concerns, but he has threatened her once at least.

You can't really blame Young for not giving Wray much of his time, everything she does is a conniving attempt to get herself more personal and political power. Just look at her behaviour in Darkness, when she attempted to get Young to cancel the lottery and hand-pick the shuttle crew (with herself in mind). Or what she did during Young's "trial" when she set her sights squarely on him and wouldn't let up for any reason until Chloe told her to shove it.

We all talk about how Rush has a Machieavellian power-play thing going on, but Wray has it just as bad.

[carmencatalina]

Yeah , but a pissed off Rockwieler? Bye bye hunting dog. Rottwielers tear and rent. Vicious.

As someone who has had 4 Rotties over the years, please, they are not "vicious". Mine were very well behaved, loving animals. I can't stand dog stereotyping!

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[beafly]

As someone who has had 4 Rotties over the years, please, they are not "vicious". Mine were very well behaved, loving animals. I can't stand dog stereotyping!

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Agreed!

Maybe we should stereotype Rottweiler owners though.

[JustAnotherVoice]

Work to rule would have been the most logical course of action, but the three main protagonists (Young, Rush, Wray) have been anything but logical in their decision making.

Although late to the party, I would like to contend that Rush and Young have been the most logical characters within certain remits, whereas Wray has been the overly emotional one in just about every decision she makes, dealing in moral and societal absolutes.

Admittedly, Young is only logical when it comes to the long term survival of the crew, and getting as many people home as he can (after the initial attempt to dial home, but I'll let that slide because of the head injury and not seeing the big picture yet); Rush's logic stems from his scientific curiosity and personal survival - willing to do whatever it takes to satisfy his obsession with the caveat that he doesn't get hurt or suffer direct (and immediate?) consequences. Getting either to make decisions about anything else seems to be a complete crapshoot.

Wray, on the other hand, played the fearmonger, and played the part admirably. Everything about the plan, for me, reeks of Wray (except the timetable) and I don't think it could have happened any other way with her pulling the strings. Rush's methods are subtle and manipulative; but the coup was blunt, designed to break morale and panic the soldiers into doing something stupid, right down to the possibility of starvation/dehydration.

If Wray had thought more logically, then a denial of service would have been the best option, and it could have started long ago, since everyone seemed to know that something big would go down. If she had started a civilian work slowdown around the time of Earth (when she was ordered to take control), she could have taken Young's job a while ago.

[Daro]

Although late to the party, I would like to contend that Rush and Young have been the most logical characters within certain remits, whereas Wray has been the overly emotional one in just about every decision she makes, dealing in moral and societal absolutes.

Admittedly, Young is only logical when it comes to the long term survival of the crew, and getting as many people home as he can (after the initial attempt to dial home, but I'll let that slide because of the head injury and not seeing the big picture yet); Rush's logic stems from his scientific curiosity and personal survival - willing to do whatever it takes to satisfy his obsession with the caveat that he doesn't get hurt or suffer direct (and immediate?) consequences. Getting either to make decisions about anything else seems to be a complete crapshoot.

Wray, on the other hand, played the fearmonger, and played the part admirably. Everything about the plan, for me, reeks of Wray (except the timetable) and I don't think it could have happened any other way with her pulling the strings. Rush's methods are subtle and manipulative; but the coup was blunt, designed to break morale and panic the soldiers into doing something stupid, right down to the possibility of starvation/dehydration.

If Wray had thought more logically, then a denial of service would have been the best option, and it could have started long ago, since everyone seemed to know that something big would go down. If she had started a civilian work slowdown around the time of Earth (when she was ordered to take control), she could have taken Young's job a while ago.

I disagree that Young focuses more on long term survival. He is starting to now, but in the past, it's been short term thinking that dominated his decision making. "Water" is the perfect example of that. I think Young, before the mid-season, still had it in his mind that they would find a way home to Earth soon. He realizes now that Rush can't (and perhaps won't) make that happen any time soon. And if Rush can't make it happen, no one else can either at this point.
Rush is in it for the long haul, though. Every decision or position he undertakes is aimed at the long term survival of Destiny. It's been their main point of contention. I am not convinced that he won't do something if it risks his health or life, it's just that he isn't going to do so lightly.
I completely agree that Wray SEEMS to be motivated mostly by her emotions, but her focus is on people, and so that's pretty natural, I think. While Rush and Young are making tough choices and viewing the crew as a group in a survival situation, Wray is focused on individuals to a much greater degree.

[JustAnotherVoice]

I disagree that Young focuses more on long term survival. He is starting to now, but in the past, it's been short term thinking that dominated his decision making. "Water" is the perfect example of that. I think Young, before the mid-season, still had it in his mind that they would find a way home to Earth soon. He realizes now that Rush can't (and perhaps won't) make that happen any time soon. And if Rush can't make it happen, no one else can either at this point.
Rush is in it for the long haul, though. Every decision or position he undertakes is aimed at the long term survival of Destiny. It's been their main point of contention. I am not convinced that he won't do something if it risks his health or life, it's just that he isn't going to do so lightly.
I completely agree that Wray SEEMS to be motivated mostly by her emotions, but her focus is on people, and so that's pretty natural, I think. While Rush and Young are making tough choices and viewing the crew as a group in a survival situation, Wray is focused on individuals to a much greater degree.

Both Young and Rush play very different games with very different endgame scenarios, I think. Young uses a Xanatos gambit, where his endgame, we can agree, is to get home. Young's decisions to settle down, ration food and water, the decisions he's been lambasted for (by both his crew and fans of the show) are the ones that scream "long term" for me. I get the sense that he's more concerned with getting as many people home as possible, without compromising their safety, which is why his orders can seem self-contradictory within a single breath (study the chair without getting near it; do it as fast as possible, but take your time). Settling down for the long haul while making sure their very limited supplies last the duration is what I meant by long term survival. Afterall, a slightly hungry, but unpanicked scientist working slowly and steadily is worth more than a near starving one being hurried into tackling something they don't fully understand.

But with the addition of Rush, Young's forced to play Xanatos speed chess, which he doesn't do all that well apparently, probably because he's never had someone actively undermine him at every step. The overall goal is the same, but he isn't quite the same master manipulator or people person that either Wray or Rush seem to be.

Rush definately employs the Batman gambit. His endgame is, IMO, to manipulate people for his own scientific curiosity, which is often in direct odds with Young's "slow and safe" approach.

Wray is the only one of the power trio who's endgame is a mystery to me. She takes elements from both camps, but doesn't come off as having any direction, almost like an Indy ploy without the guarantee of a happy ending. She wants to grab the trophy, but she's wearing 4inch stilettos when that big boulder comes rolling down that ramp. She wants to get home, but she follows orders to take power by working with the one man who is exactly where he wants to be. She defends the freedom to choose, which could cost her the ability to go home (wrong people choose to leave the ship etc). She lurches from one decision to another with only her absolute moral compass to guide her, which could end up hurting her in the long run.