All these civilian vs millitary talk...

[ammit]

Did everyone forget that all people onboard Desity used to work in a military facility under the command of USAF with Col. Young as the leader? Sure, there was Wray's oversight as the representative from IOA but everyone still had to follow orders from Col. Young. The command structure has not changed since everyone moved over to the ship.

People were emotional since the rumor started that Col. Young left Rush to die on the planet. They let their emotions got the better them. Attempting to seize control of the ship from people in charge simply give those in command an opportunity to reinforce the rules, with guns or otherwise. Have you ever seen any ship, boat, airplane or shuttle run in democracy?

I am sure Col. Young already knows the fact he left Rush on the planet to die causes all these. He simply does not have people's (civilians) trust at the moment. He will have to find a way to regain that trust. On the other hand, he needs to show everyone who's (still) in charge. It's a delicate balance he'll have to work on.

The command problem can simply be resolved with USAF & IOA using the communication stones. It then wouldn't make interesting TV now, would it...

[Gollumpus]

Did everyone forget that all people onboard Desity used to work in a military facility under the command of USAF with Col. Young as the leader? Sure, there was Wray's oversight as the representative from IOA but everyone still had to follow orders from Col. Young. The command structure has not changed since everyone moved over to the ship.

I'm in agreement with you, however it seems we've missed a memo or something. These guys wind up on Destiny and within a couple of months all they want to discuss is long term, civilian governance. Have these people already given up hope of ever getting home?

regards,
G.

[Avenger]

Well, we know that Young has been put in charge by O'Neill. Until something different comes down from the higher ups back on Earth, Young will continue to be in command.

[Joachim]

They don't need to give up hope of going home to try and better the situation they're in, Gollumpus.

No, the "command structure" hasn't changed - much - but the context of it has. Young was not the commander of Icarus, Telford was. Ultimately it is not the "what" that matters, really, but the why, the reasoning, and the context of the "what". That is where the issue here stems from - they are no longer on a planet with easy access back home, they are no longer within range of the influence of the U.S. Military and there is no definite hope that they ever will be again. All we need for evidence of this is Young's refusal to follow orders - he has set himself as the leader of Destiny; not as a base, or even a colony, but as an independant entity.

Most ships, shuttles, boats, what-have-you, are on expeditions. The people chose to be on this expedition, it was established, they knew what they were doing and they knew what they were getting themselves in to - this was not. This has, because of Rush, become their home against their will. They are not a group of sailors, they are not a group of astronauts on a specific mission anymore - they are stranded. They are civilians, scientists, soldiers, cooks, etc.

[latvian_stargatefan]

No, the "command structure" hasn't changed - much - but the context of it has. Young was not the commander of Icarus, Telford was.

No, Young was the commander of Icarus, Telford was the commander of Icarus fighter squadron and should've been the expedition leader to Destiny.
The problem lies within the fact that now they are stranded and the situation is completely different. O'Neill can say whatever he wants but he can't really help these people- they are on their own. And with military leadership that, judging from what Young did on the planet to Rush, could make people think that it isn't a stretch of imagination to think that they have military dictature where Young can get rid of whoever he wants.

Also I don't think all the civilians actively participated in the coup. It's just- they are a small group on Destiny and civilians pretty much are friends with civilians and military with other military... so they just didn't want to betray their friends and tell about the plot to Young since in that case, they'd have no friends on the ship. Plus, it was meant to be a non-violent coup so they, I think, didn't really believe that the military would start shooting people for participating in the coup cause there was no real reason for them to think that way.

When we think about this coup, it's more like a peaceful protest in front of the government building, people waiting the moment when the government will meet their demands- both sides knew that they can't use excessive force and they did without that, except for Greer and Vanessa... a bit. I can see almost all civiians participating in it. BSGs case was much more like a real coup, with both sides knowing that there'll be blood and acting accordingly.

[KEK]

I'm in agreement with you, however it seems we've missed a memo or something. These guys wind up on Destiny and within a couple of months all they want to discuss is long term, civilian governance. Have these people already given up hope of ever getting home?

regards,
G.

I think having the guy in charge trying to off one of the crew has probably distracted them. Staying alive takes priority over getting home.

[Lord Hurin]

I'm going to ask here, because I didn't get an answer in any other thread: have we ever seen any civilians approaching Young and saying that they're being overlooked? Did they try to get him to consider their needs before? I honestly can't remember a scene like that, so from my perspective it looks like the first action the civilians aboard Destiny took to get Young to listen was full-scale mutiny.

Also, remember; the civilians are pissed mostly because they know Young left Rush on the planet. What they don't know is that Rush framed Young and that even after that, the Colonel tried to bury the hatchet.

[KEK]

They're scared. From their perspective, the last person to piss-off Young got stranded on a planet and left for dead.

[Lord Hurin]

They're scared. From their perspective, the last person to piss-off Young got stranded on a planet and left for dead.

Yes, and I'm not saying that was right, nor would Young at this point. The problem isn't just on his side though. Young confronted Rush, offered a truce and was rebuffed and insulted. He lost his temper, granted. When Rush came back, he and Young agreed to work together "for the good of the crew" and what's the first thing Rush does? Makes plans to overthrow Young. He's betrayed him too many times now for Young not to justifiably question his motives, comments and allegations. Might I add that all the while, Young has tried to take the moral high ground and not tell the crew about Rush's frame-job. Probably for the sake of unity.

[_SocraticMethod]

They don't need to give up hope of going home to try and better the situation they're in, Gollumpus.

No, the "command structure" hasn't changed - much - but the context of it has. Young was not the commander of Icarus, Telford was. Ultimately it is not the "what" that matters, really, but the why, the reasoning, and the context of the "what". That is where the issue here stems from - they are no longer on a planet with easy access back home, they are no longer within range of the influence of the U.S. Military and there is no definite hope that they ever will be again. All we need for evidence of this is Young's refusal to follow orders - he has set himself as the leader of Destiny; not as a base, or even a colony, but as an independant entity.

Most ships, shuttles, boats, what-have-you, are on expeditions. The people chose to be on this expedition, it was established, they knew what they were doing and they knew what they were getting themselves in to - this was not. This has, because of Rush, become their home against their will. They are not a group of sailors, they are not a group of astronauts on a specific mission anymore - they are stranded. They are civilians, scientists, soldiers, cooks, etc.

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking as well. These people are just about completely isolated, so it's almost as though they are building a new society altogether; and as with the formation of any society, you need to set up a system of governance. While there was an established system on Icarus, matters are completely different now because they have only one another to whom to answer. Think Lord of the Flies.

At least, that's how I see it.

[s09119]

I'm in agreement with you, however it seems we've missed a memo or something. These guys wind up on Destiny and within a couple of months all they want to discuss is long term, civilian governance. Have these people already given up hope of ever getting home?

regards,
G.

Seems to be common sense that you'd plan for the long-haul.

[Pharaoh Atem]

Well, we know that Young has been put in charge by O'Neill. Until something different comes down from the higher ups back on Earth, Young will continue to be in command.

yes, and he's really is doing a fine job. if tensions on the ship would cool down i'm sure everyone would get along bette.

[yanna]

Might I add that all the while, Young has tried to take the moral high ground and not tell the crew about Rush's frame-job. Probably for the sake of unity.

My guess is that Young kept mum about Rush framing him because he didn't want to reveal his very powerful motive for leaving Rush to die on that planet. Once Rush agreed to not mention it, Young thought everybody on the Destiny was stupid enough to buy it and still said nothing. Revealing that Rush had framed him would not give him any moral high ground there. He had proof of what Rush did and instead of confronting him and exposing him for the whole ship to see he tried to kill the guy and then lied about it.

The civilians have very serious reasons to want to get rid of Young. He has shown time and again that he is dangerous. He left one of them to die. And not just any guy, the head scientist who may be pushing his own agenda but is still probably their best chance of ever getting home. He was perfectly willing to sacrifce Chloe and Rush by firing on the alien ship not to mention the apalling way he treats scientists. Yelling "I don't care, just fix it" while he knows nothing of how things work isn't exactly endearing. His solution to everything seems to be to shoot the big guns, not paying any attention to the scientists and the very real danger of Destiny exploding. Why would anyone want this psychotic jackass in charge? And since the military is obviously letting him get away with everything, they are equally guilty.

[FallenAngelII]

1) On Icarus Base, Young had to answer to someone else. One misstep and someone would swoop in and relieve him of his command. They can't exactly do that now. Young just showed that he wants to keep his command at all costs, with force if so needed. What can the people back at Earth do if Young and his soldiers just refuse to relinquish their weapons?
2) Back on Earth, Young had yet tried to murder Rush. This is one of the things that broke the camel's back because it made him unfit for command in the eyes of the civilians.
3) The Destiny is not a military operation. It wasn't in any way a military operation up until "Space". Now it's part military, part civilian. As I've said many times, there should be a committee commanding the ship together. Rush can take care of the science, Young of the military and Wray of the "civilian" part (everything else), in other words, everyone does what they're best at.