The Civilian Coup'd'ta was wholly unjustified.

[EllieVee]

the communications with Earth aren't just spotty, they're dangerous

Want him to step down? Since when was any military establishment a democracy where if you didn't like your commanding officer, you can make him step down? He does have something other than the SGC putting him in charge (which is enough all on its own). He has force, which he has, and he has consent, which I think is what he's going for.

They're at the point where they're in for the long haul and I think they all know that. Rush has known it from the beginning but, I think, Wray's coup shows that she's accepted this, too. Once you're at that point you do not need a military dictatorship any longer.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

That's the point. The civilians believe that they are no longer part of a democracy. They are cut off from Earth for all intents and purposes, and Young is not just an SG leader. He's a dictator who commits crimes and cannot be held responsible by the democracy that is supposed to be giving him orders. THey're trying to form their own society as a microcosm of what they had on Earth. And forcing a military leader to step down is something that happens in free nations all the time, when fault is found in that person's leadership.

They're at the point where they're in for the long haul and I think they all know that. Rush has known it from the beginning but, I think, Wray's coup shows that she's accepted this, too. Once you're at that point you do not need a military dictatorship any longer.

I'm going to have to disagree with you both about it being a military dictatorship, but I'm quite willing to agree to disagree and move on to see what else there is there.

yes, they are trying to form their own society, no doubt there, but what is the basis of that society to be? Even if I concede the point, (which I'm not , I'd just rather discuss than argue), Rush/Wray, and their method of creating a 'side' is fraught with concerns. I don't agree with the term dictatorship, but if we use that term, what;s the point in exchanging one form of dictatorship for another?

As for forcing Young to step down, sure, militaries step down, no doubt there, but by the same token, military coups are used to create stable governments. If Young isn't fit to lead for his "crimes", then who is? Which one of them hasn't done something that should rule them out?

Yes, they are in for the long haul, but they have to get to that haul first. They have to get out of danger. Having the military remain in command until that power can, if needs be, passed on to a civilian govt (other than the one on Earth) chosen not by subterfuge and coup, but by democratic method. What would be prefereable? The scientists seizing power through a coup during a time of duress, or a rational selection done at a time when they are not in peril and can therefore think rationally?

[Daro]

I agree that taking power through diplomacy is the wisest, safest choice. The civilians cannot trust Rush and Wray, they don't know what the two are all about. Neither, honestly, do we viewers. Previous to Divided, Young did not show much willingness to talk. Now, I think, that will change.

[EllieVee]

I agree that taking power through diplomacy is the wisest, safest choice. The civilians cannot trust Rush and Wray, they don't know what the two are all about. Neither, honestly, do we viewers. Previous to Divided, Young did not show much willingness to talk. Now, I think, that will change.

Has he finally worked out that people don't like him much?

[Daro]

Has he finally worked out that people don't like him much?

I'll have to wait until the thread for 'Faith' is posted before I can answer that question. BTW, anyone know how long it takes for the threads to go up?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ellievee,

I think it's pretty clear after the events in "Faith" Young recognizes his shortcomings. He's making an effort to correct those shortcomings. Whether Rush will reciprocate and whether Young will continue remains to be seen. We've seen that Young does pretty well when things are calm. How he performs under severe stress is less certain.

[EllieVee]

Ellievee,

I think it's pretty clear after the events in "Faith" Young recognizes his shortcomings. He's making an effort to correct those shortcomings. Whether Rush will reciprocate and whether Young will continue remains to be seen. We've seen that Young does pretty well when things are calm. How he performs under severe stress is less certain.

Is he? He's still ordering people about. He's still making decisions by himself. Sure, he seems to have asked Rush and Wray their opinions but he's still the sole decision maker. Frankly, Rush was right about the shuttle. Young shouldn't have left it there. As for Brody and Park in the shuttle, after having guns put to my head, as soon as he said, 'You have a month to fix the shuttle,' I would have said, 'And this is me going on holiday, bye.'

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ellie,

Is he? He's still ordering people about. He's still making decisions by himself. Sure, he seems to have asked Rush and Wray their opinions but he's still the sole decision maker. Frankly, Rush was right about the shuttle. Young shouldn't have left it there. As for Brody and Park in the shuttle, after having guns put to my head, as soon as he said, 'You have a month to fix the shuttle,' I would have said, 'And this is me going on holiday, bye.'

I can't say I wouldn't have been tempted to do the same thing. However, in a way, Rush getting up and back to work when still recovering was Rush's effort to mend fences. It's as if to say, I still don't like you but I recognize I can't sit on my hands and survive.

[EllieVee]

Ellie,



I can't say I wouldn't have been tempted to do the same thing. However, in a way, Rush getting up and back to work when still recovering was Rush's effort to mend fences. It's as if to say, I still don't like you but I recognize I can't sit on my hands and survive.

I suspect it was less Rush attempting to fence mend than being bored lying around doing nothing.

[Daro]

I'm with Ellie. Rush is a workaholic, if he'd lost a hand in the last episode he'd still be up and about pushing buttons with the nub. He gets up and works, but he would have done that no matter what was going on between him and Young. It's one of his most endearing qualities.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Daro,

I'm with Ellie. Rush is a workaholic, if he'd lost a hand in the last episode he'd still be up and about pushing buttons with the nub. He gets up and works, but he would have done that no matter what was going on between him and Young. It's one of his most endearing qualities.

Perhaps. Then again I'm the eternal optimist hopeing people will just get along.

[Rachel500]

I haven't read through all of the thread so I may be duplicating somewhat but in regards to the OP...

I think the civilians had legitimate complaints. The civilians believed that the man entrusted with their safety had broken that trust by leaving one of them behind due to personal issues. They're stuck on an Ancient ship with no view of getting home any time soon and their civil liberties are being infringed upon via orders rather than through consensual agreement (room searches, rationing, being forced to exercise, attend psych evals). Attempts to discuss alternative ways of doing things are met with resistance and threat (such as Wray's alternative to the lottery). And finally, when Wray states that she'll report her suspicions, the communication stones are put off limits (and even though we know Young's motivation here was safety from Wray's POV as she said it seemed very convenient). If I was a civilian aboard the Destiny - even understanding that some things such as rationing and room searches were a necessary evil, I can't say I would be 100% happy with the leadership on board.

I will say they went about getting their complaints heard compeltely the wrong way in staging a coup.

But I think for them, the civilised ways of approaching Young to discuss their concerns might not have been considered an option. After all, Wray's previous attempts at providing input had been put down by Young. Add to that the events of Justice had widened the division and the civilians had seen how uncomfortable and unwilling the military on board were to take orders from a civilian authority.

In a tense environment where you don't feel that you can trust the guy in charge, communication with what should be your escalation structure is prevented and you seem to be constantly in the dark on decisions that are affecting your life, add in lack of sleep, poor nutrition and the very primal fear that you're going to die, and you have a bunched of stressed out people, I can see why they might have thought a coup was their only option.

I will agree that Camile's argument really was very weak in terms of context - the military on board is subject to civilian leadership from Earth - however, it's clear that the military leadership on board Destiny has become to be perceived by the civilians as a dictatorship that is not considering their viewpoint enough in decision-making. While Destiny was not initially anything more than an evacuation site for an off-world base, and while it made sense for the military to take command in the early days of the evacuation, as time goes on, Destiny is going to be more like a very remote colony from Earth that will need to determine its own governance structure. I'm certain whatever contract the civilians signed up to, that not one of them signed on to the Icarus project to live under the rule of the military for the rest of their lives.

I will say though that neither side really comes out smelling of roses. The civilians have legitimate complaints, so too have the military regarding the civilians' actions.

[YutheGreat]

First it isn't a Coup Coup is when military overthrows civilian here civilians rebelled or mutiny.

Anyway... Young isn't a tyrant. if he was he would thrown rush out of the airlock. I admit leaving Rush on the planet was severe okay real bad and makes it hard for them to trust but Rush did kind of deserve it. I wonder if this mutiny was bless by Earth Defense. I was expecting a trial of sorts in the nest epi oh well....