Point Of No Return (518)

[iolanda]

My main gripe has got to be Dean laying this on Sam...again. "You'll eventually give in Sam and I can't allow that blah blah blah." I don't like that Dean feels that way, and that that was the prominent excuse they were going to use for Dean's decision to go and agree. (And I say this as someone who is in neither brother's camp when it comes to who I like more). For me this season, it was about how Dean was slowly breaking down because of what was going on around them. It had very little to do with Sam appearing to be on the edge of teetering to the dark side. I know they played that up at the beginning of the season, but they backed off and, imo, Sam seemed as resolved as ever. I haven't forgotten what happened in The End, but I still say Zach was screwing with Dean. I just didn't like that part or that being used as the excuse. So I don't think it was wrong of me that I enjoyed Dean getting the snot beat out of him by Cas.

Sam isn't a bad guy. He is intelligent and clever and he for sure isn't on the edge to say yes right now, but he did trust a demon more than his brother and he got addictive to demon blood even though everyone told him that this was a wrong way. It was clearly possible to use him for the wrong side, even if he doesn't want to, and it was during this season that he was made to drink demon blood even if he tried with all what he had not to.

Then Dean was always pretty sure about himself and that his way is the right way, and during this season he was proven wrong all along the way. The impact he got was that every thing he does kills or hurts someone he cares about, or just plainly doesn't work (like killing the Devil with the colt) while at the same time the other way would maybe kill people but leave them happy because they get to haven.

Seeing that the one single solution to all this left, namely God, isn't interested in all the mayor evil stuff going on just left him with the option to play along because he just can't be sure that his brother won't be bend into saying yes, and that is the point where he can't do anything any more unless he offers himself to be the Michael sword. And being the sword now would very maybe prevent Sam of being the devils vessel later.

I'm kind of disappointed a yes wasn't exchanged, but then I've always believed (and still do) that no one will be killed and Lucifer will be tossed back down into hell somehow. There will be no grand battle because of the supposed destruction it will cause and because of what it will supposedly lead to if one side or the other actually wins. I could still be surprised of course , but I'm sticking with this theory.

That is what I think, too. It's the only way I can think about to lead to a world which isn't too different to our world now and leave Sam and Dean alive.

I'm pretty sure Zach's an angel. It's never been suggested otherwise as far as I can remember. He is just higher up on the ladder. I would assume that even Michael (or even Lucifer) could be killed with the angel killing sword. Don't see why they would be exempt other than for the writers to make up some special exemption for story purposes.

I never assumed that Zach wasn't an angel - but Dean isn't one and therefore shouldn't be able to kill an angel unless Michael was inside him for this one very moment.

[LoneStar1836]

I always wondered why the angels never just kill Sam. His continued existence is a threat to all of creation. I know theres some possible plot device keeping him alive, like god wants it so, but still. The second thing id do if I were Michael after killing Lucifer would be to off Sam just in case.

I think they'd like to. I just assume that it would be pointless because Lucifer could bring him back. Didn't Lucifer tell Sam that it would be pointless to kill himself because he'd just keep bringing him back?

Sam isn't a bad guy. He is intelligent and clever and he for sure isn't on the edge to say yes right now, but he did trust a demon more than his brother and he got addictive to demon blood even though everyone told him that this was a wrong way. It was clearly possible to use him for the wrong side, even if he doesn't want to, and it was during this season that he was made to drink demon blood even if he tried with all what he had not to.

Then Dean was always pretty sure about himself and that his way is the right way, and during this season he was proven wrong all along the way. The impact he got was that every thing he does kills or hurts someone he cares about, or just plainly doesn't work (like killing the Devil with the colt) while at the same time the other way would maybe kill people but leave them happy because they get to haven.

Seeing that the one single solution to all this left, namely God, isn't interested in all the mayor evil stuff going on just left him with the option to play along because he just can't be sure that his brother won't be bend into saying yes, and that is the point where he can't do anything any more unless he offers himself to be the Michael sword. And being the sword now would very maybe prevent Sam of being the devils vessel later.

Oh yeah Sam's been weak in the past and made the wrong choices so can't blame Dean for having doubts, but Sam's been straightforward with Dean lately. Nothing wrong with Dean protecting him from a possible future by being proactive himself and making a move before it got to the point that Sam might be forced into a situation where he'd give in.

I just didn't like the way Dean said that, and that it all came back to Sam and Sam being weak so Dean thinks he has to step up. I thought it was a weak excuse on Dean's part, and not what I thought his reasons might be based on episodes leading up to this, but I'm not the writer so....

I never assumed that Zach wasn't an angel - but Dean isn't one and therefore shouldn't be able to kill an angel unless Michael was inside him for this one very moment.

My mistake. I read that sentence wrong. doh!

Good point. Yeah, I thought it was stated that only angels can kill angels. But then in that last episode only an "instrument of god" could kill that demon and Dean was able to so maybe because of that he can knock off angels? That's the only guess I've got.

[starg8fans]

Did Dean put the keys for the impala into the box or was that his lock-picking equipment? If it were the keys, then Sam (who must have driven the car back) must have found the letter. I hope, but I don‘t really think that we will ever know what Dean wrote. Or is the letter legible in the HD version?

Yes, those were the keys to the Impala. My guess is, though, that Sam took the whole box back with him and turned it over to Dean as is. I believe he would have considered it as an invasion of Dean's privacy or breach of confidence if he had opened the letter and read it - since it was clearly intended as a 'last words' kinda thing, and Dean wasn't going to sacrifice himself just yet. I couldn't make out the words on my DL either, and it's supposed to be HDTV. We may have to wait for the DVDs to see what Dean wrote.[/quote]

What did Dean expect Cas would do when he said „just do it“? Did he really think that Cas would kill him or something?

No, I think he was just expecting to be 'dragged back' to Bobby's - again.

What happened to Cas when Dean zatted him out? He was pretty fast back and he knew where Dean was. Does he have back-up somewhere?

Just theorizing here, but Castiel has said repeatedly this season that he's 'cut off from heaven'. Which is where the spell usually sends an angel. In his case, he probably gets sent somewhere on Earth, so he's able to get back much faster.

Why was Dean able to kill Zachariah? He isn‘t an angel, and as far as we know only angels are abel to kill angels. Is this maybe in any kind related to the fact that he was able to see the true face of daemons shortly before he went to hell?

If I remember correctly, Uriel says that only an angel can kill an angel. It added to the epicness. Now a shiny knife can kill an angel too. Makes you wonder how did stabbing angels not pop into their heads earlier. Youd think that'd be at the top of their go to options.

I'm pretty sure Zach's an angel. It's never been suggested otherwise as far as I can remember. He is just higher up on the ladder. I would assume that even Michael (or even Lucifer) could be killed with the angel killing sword. Don't see why they would be exempt other than for the writers to make up some special exemption for story purposes.

Interesting point. Yes, Uriel said in On the Head of a Pin that only an angel can kill another angel, but he may have been talking figuratively. We've only seen one particular weapon - although we now know there's several of them - used until now to kill angels, which may only have existed in heaven - so Uriel meant only angels had access to this special kind of knife. It may be the equivalent of Ruby's demon killing knife. It was in the possession of a demon first, but worked when humans used it as well.

Second thing is that Dean said „I‘m tired, man“ again. That line is getting old. It was the third time we had it and it just doesn‘t have the impact any more.

Yeah, I agree that it is getting kind of old. Not that it isn't true for him but it gets repetitive.

Yeah, I noticed that too. They could come up with something different once in a while.

I always wondered why the angels never just kill Sam. His continued existence is a threat to all of creation. I know theres some possible plot device keeping him alive, like god wants it so, but still. The second thing id do if I were Michael after killing Lucifer would be to off Sam just in case.

I'm pretty sure the angels would love to kill Sam, but thanks to Cas' sigil they can't find him. Zach would probably have killed Sam if he'd had the time, but he was too busy gloating about having them at his mercy on his turf to smite him when he had the chance.

Edit Just saw this...

I think they'd like to. I just assume that it would be pointless because Lucifer could bring him back. Didn't Lucifer tell Sam that it would be pointless to kill himself because he'd just keep bringing him back?

Good point, Lucifer did say that's what he would do.

Sam isn't a bad guy. He is intelligent and clever and he for sure isn't on the edge to say yes right now, but he did trust a demon more than his brother and he got addictive to demon blood even though everyone told him that this was a wrong way. It was clearly possible to use him for the wrong side, even if he doesn't want to, and it was during this season that he was made to drink demon blood even if he tried with all what he had not to.

Then Dean was always pretty sure about himself and that his way is the right way, and during this season he was proven wrong all along the way. The impact he got was that every thing he does kills or hurts someone he cares about, or just plainly doesn't work (like killing the Devil with the colt) while at the same time the other way would maybe kill people but leave them happy because they get to haven.

Seeing that the one single solution to all this left, namely God, isn't interested in all the mayor evil stuff going on just left him with the option to play along because he just can't be sure that his brother won't be bend into saying yes, and that is the point where he can't do anything any more unless he offers himself to be the Michael sword. And being the sword now would very maybe prevent Sam of being the devils vessel later.

I think the writers have done an excellent job or showing how Dean's faith in Sam - that was already shaken after what happened in S4 - was eroded further. When he saw Sam as Lucifer in The End; when Michael told Dean their becoming vessels was inevitable in The Song Remains the Same; when Sam had to go through yet another detox after drinking demon blood in My Bloody Valentine - I know they would both have died if he hadn't done it, he did it against his own conviction, and rationally Dean would have to admit it was the right call, but deep down it still would have eaten away at his trust in Sam; and finally in Dark Side of the Moon when all of Sam's favorite memories centered about him going off and doing his own thing, free of his family. It was just one blow after the other, and finally pushed him to the breaking point.

At least Dean changed his mind at literally the last moment, and I sure hope he meant it this time when he told Sam he's ready to accept that he's grown up.

What happened to Adam in the end?

Who knows, Michael have have taken him to use as a temporary vessel if he needs one later.

[LtColCarter]

very good episode...another good piece of work! I'm looking forward to the big show down!

[LizzieAnne]

I really loved this ep.... for all the reasons that have been said already.

So now know a bit more about Michael. He doesn’t seem too bothered about killing innocent humans it seems and I’m kind of wondering whether , even though Dean changed his mind at the last minute, he did actually say ’Yes’ and if Michael is now desperate will he take that as meaning he can now take Dean on a technicality without breaking the heavenly rules?

I’m thinking that at the moment Dean changed his mind was the point at which all the pre destiny/fate foretelling was changed …with Dean exercising his free will because of his love of family/ Sam. I can only think that Michael will be more than on the warpath now. So is the future now unknown? even to Michael?

So now we have Dean, Sam, Cas and Bobby against the Commander of the Heavenly Host , Lucifer and all his demonic hordes, and the Four Horseman . Awesome!!!!

[the fifth man]

I really loved this ep.... for all the reasons that have been said already.

So now know a bit more about Michael. He doesn’t seem too bothered about killing innocent humans it seems and I’m kind of wondering whether , even though Dean changed his mind at the last minute, he did actually say ’Yes’ and if Michael is now desperate will he take that as meaning he can now take Dean on a technicality without breaking the heavenly rules?

I’m thinking that at the moment Dean changed his mind was the point at which all the pre destiny/fate foretelling was changed …with Dean exercising his free will because of his love of family/ Sam. I can only think that Michael will be more than on the warpath now. So is the future now unknown? even to Michael?

So now we have Dean, Sam, Cas and Bobby against the Commander of the Heavenly Host , Lucifer and all his demonic hordes, and the Four Horseman . Awesome!!!!

Just a little bit of a challenge, right?

[starg8fans]

I really loved this ep.... for all the reasons that have been said already.

So now know a bit more about Michael. He doesn’t seem too bothered about killing innocent humans it seems and I’m kind of wondering whether , even though Dean changed his mind at the last minute, he did actually say ’Yes’ and if Michael is now desperate will he take that as meaning he can now take Dean on a technicality without breaking the heavenly rules?

I was wondering about that as well. I hope the rules say that the 'saying yes to Michael' implies that it has to be face to face. It would be too sudden if Michael suddenly jumped Dean's bones. (Or his 'sweet @ss' )

I’m thinking that at the moment Dean changed his mind was the point at which all the pre destiny/fate foretelling was changed …with Dean exercising his free will because of his love of family/ Sam. I can only think that Michael will be more than on the warpath now. So is the future now unknown? even to Michael?

I had to go back and re-watch that scene - I thought Zachariah said something that Michael had predicted that Dean would say 'yes', which would have proved your point. But I think he just referred to the fact that Michael knew Dean would cave if the lives of both of his brothers were at stake. Still, I'm sure you're right. The angels have done everything they can to get Dean to cave, especially undermining his trust in himself and in Sam. But the bond between them prevailed, and I'd say it's now stronger than ever. And as long as they're together they should be willing and able to take on just about anybody, or anything.

[LtColCarter]

I was wondering about that as well. I hope the rules say that the 'saying yes to Michael' implies that it has to be face to face. It would be too sudden if Michael suddenly jumped Dean's bones. (Or his 'sweet @ss' )

Kinky

I had to go back and re-watch that scene - I thought Zachariah said something that Michael had predicted that Dean would say 'yes', which would have proved your point. But I think he just referred to the fact that Michael knew Dean would cave if the lives of both of his brothers were at stake. Still, I'm sure you're right. The angels have done everything they can to get Dean to cave, especially undermining his trust in himself and in Sam. But the bond between them prevailed, and I'd say it's now stronger than ever. And as long as they're together they should be willing and able to take on just about anybody, or anything.

I concur...and like Dean said...they'll do it their way!

[Crichiel]

I was wondering about that as well. I hope the rules say that the 'saying yes to Michael' implies that it has to be face to face.

Me too! As soon as he said 'yes' I was freaking, "What?! Wait! Oh no! Does that count? What's the fine print say? Did Michael hear that? Does it need to be in writing? In blood?..."