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    #61
    Originally posted by Giantevilhead View Post
    That's actually another problem with the ME universe. Humans have only had mass effect technology for 30 years and suddenly they're more powerful than races that have had ME tech for more than a thousand years.
    The Citadel fleet was torn to shreds during Sovereign's attack; our fleet is only the most powerful because we had the largest surviving force after the Battle of the Citadel and, now that we're less restrained by the treaty limiting non-Council races' vessels, we can unleash the full power of our industry to crank out as many craft as we need. The Council races pooled their resources at the Citadel in anticipation of Saren's assault, and it didn't go well for them. Is it any surprise they're still rebuilding?
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      #62
      I wish the Counsel didn't intervene in the First Contact War. I would have loved to have seen the Turrien fleet destroy the humans.

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        #63
        I'm playing through ME1 for about eighth time....its been a while since I played a video game! I don't mind being stuck at level 60.....I mop the floor with every enemy!

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          #64
          Originally posted by Giantevilhead View Post
          When I said that the Terminus Sector/Delphic Expanse was unexplored, I didn't mean it literally. Both places were explored but not by humans. Shepard may have had a map of the Sector but he had little idea about what he would find there, all he knew that it was a dangerous place full of pirates and mercs. It's the same thing with Enterprise and the Delphic Expanse, the Klingons and Vulcans had mapped the region. However, all the Enterprise really knew about the Expanse was that it was full of dangerous anomalies.
          Even though humans have numerous settlements in the Terminus Systems? That kind of throws a wrench in your claim.

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          It's the same thing when I said that the Council/Vulcans didn't help the hero. Both of them helped. The Vulcans gave humans tech and information, they even sent ships to help occasionally. However, the help they offered was relatively minor in regards to the plot. It's the same thing with the Council, they helped with the Salarian infiltration team and they put blockades around mass relays but their efforts did very little to stop Sovereign.
          Fair enough.

          But doesn't that have more to say about Sovereign than anything? That was pretty much, hands down, the most powerful dreadnought in the Battle of the Citadel. But if it wasn't for the 3rd Infiltration Regiment, Saren would have had an army of Krogan behind him and Shepard never would have had access to the Prothean Beacon. I'd say the STG did their part (and it was an important one). Of course, I may be a little biased. Kirrahe was freakin' awesome.

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          Dreadnoughts are the WMD's of the ME universe. They're powerful enough that the Council actually have a treaty to limit their numbers.
          The Treaty of Farixen, yes. Which is based on the Washington Naval Treaty. I know.

          Humanity coined several innovations to get around the treaty--carriers, for example.

          Of course, if dreadnoughts are the ultimate weapon, as you so claim, someone had better tell that to the Asari. I'm sure they'll be embarrassed that the Destiny Ascension (the most powerful dreadnought outside of the Reapers) was either a.) destroyed or b.) very nearly destroyed. By Geth Dropships. Which are classified as frigates.

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          What exactly does that have to do with the Geth's motivations for coming out of the Perseus Veil after 300 years and attacking a human colony for no reason? How much the Geth have changed in 300 years is a mystery. Their sudden aggressive actions are mysterious. What they hope to achieve through their attacks is a mystery. Why they're helping Saren is a mystery. Whether or not they built Sovereign is a mystery. Therefore, the Geth are a mysterious enemy.
          Their motives--though not necessarily their actions--are mysterious. Furthermore, we know more about the Geth (as a race) than the Xindi. What was even known about the Xindi before they attacked?

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          So did you know from the very beginning of the game where Saren got a huge 2 km long ship and why he suddenly decided to betray the Council, and attack Eden Prime, based on the fact that he was the best and most well known Spectre? No? Then doesn't the fact that he did something that is completely antithetical to what people think was his nature suggest that people didn't know him nearly as well as they think? Therefore, doesn't that make him a mystery?
          Saren is known to be absolutely brutal with an intense hatred of humanity, which stems from his brother's death in the First Contact War. This is speculated to be the reason for the attack on Eden Prime. "Revelation" confirms that Saren was planning to use Sovereign as an instrument for revenge. I'd say people knew him pretty well. But that's just me.

          Just because his motives become blurred doesn't make his original motives any less true.

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          Yes, because we've faced a crisis that could result in the total annihilation of all life on the planet before.
          It's still politics. When does it ever work like it should?

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          My problem isn't that Cerberus is sweeping everything under the rug, my problem is how so many people are willing to accept their BS, especially Shepard.
          Shepard doesn't really have a choice. The Alliance and the Council can't officially take action in the Terminus Systems. Cerberus is the only powerhouse that has the money, means, and information to make Shepard's mission a success.

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          Sure, you have a few people distrusting Cerberus but given the fact that the Alliance and the Council considers it a terrorist organization, people should be trying to arrest you, not making idle threats.
          Shepard can be a Spectre at this point. Who's going to try to arrest you? Anybody gets in your way, deal with them. Spectres are above the law (and the only people you answer to are on the Council).

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          And Hamas builds schools, gyms, health care clinics, mosques, and day care centers, but it doesn't change the fact that they're a terrorist organization.
          Cerberus operates in this morally gray area. You've seen them at their worse, occasionally at their best, and even somewhere in between. Truth be told, Cerberus hasn't even really done anything that's worse than what the Council has done.

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          How much do you really know about the Turians and the Salarians aside from the Codices? The Codices are nice but the information they give pale in comparison to what you can learn from actual interactions.
          I'm just curious. How much did you actually talk to others?

          Originally posted by Giantevilhead
          The only speculation comes in the form of an e-mail from the Salarian scientist from the first game that you helped gather information on the Keepers. He speculated that the Keepers predate the Protheans, something that you already know.
          I must be out of my mind. Or I've been having some vivid dreams. Or something. But maybe someone here can confirm or deny. I seem to remember that someone--don't know who, don't know why--speculates that the Keepers may have been genetically repurposed (in the same fashion as the Collectors).
          Last edited by Oranos; 25 February 2010, 10:08 PM.

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            #65
            Originally posted by s09119 View Post
            The Citadel fleet was torn to shreds during Sovereign's attack; our fleet is only the most powerful because we had the largest surviving force after the Battle of the Citadel and, now that we're less restrained by the treaty limiting non-Council races' vessels, we can unleash the full power of our industry to crank out as many craft as we need. The Council races pooled their resources at the Citadel in anticipation of Saren's assault, and it didn't go well for them. Is it any surprise they're still rebuilding?
            Just to add to that it's stated that humanity also cheats. The treaties on fleet strength specially state how many dreadnaughts each race can have, so humanity is building its limit, then goes and designs carriers to get round the limit as there's no mention of them. This thinking outside the box is one of the reasons why many of the other races are wary of humanity.

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              #66
              Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
              Just to add to that it's stated that humanity also cheats. The treaties on fleet strength specially state how many dreadnaughts each race can have, so humanity is building its limit, then goes and designs carriers to get round the limit as there's no mention of them. This thinking outside the box is one of the reasons why many of the other races are wary of humanity.
              Hehehe. Well, ya can't blame humanity (or the other races for being wary ). Each race has to look out after it's own. Everyone can spout stuff like cooperation, but at the end of the day, each race still, for the most part, prioritizes their own.
              Funny thing about the Carriers, tho'.
              Kinda reminds me of the concept of 'pocket battleships'.
              sigpic

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                #67
                Originally posted by gotthammer View Post
                Hehehe. Well, ya can't blame humanity (or the other races for being wary ). Each race has to look out after it's own. Everyone can spout stuff like cooperation, but at the end of the day, each race still, for the most part, prioritizes their own.
                Funny thing about the Carriers, tho'.
                Kinda reminds me of the concept of 'pocket battleships'.
                Well I believe that the whole humanity getting round treaties by building carriers was deliberately modelled on behaviour of nations like Japan during the interwar period in the 20's and 30's. The naval treaties of the time only allowed them so many battleships so you can guess what they went and did.

                And who likes my new sig? Kinda work in progress and I might tinker with it but I feel it's not bad for a first effort.

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                  Well I believe that the whole humanity getting round treaties by building carriers was deliberately modelled on behaviour of nations like Japan during the interwar period in the 20's and 30's. The naval treaties of the time only allowed them so many battleships so you can guess what they went and did.
                  The Treaty of Farixen is way too similar to the Washington Naval Treaty to be a coincidence. Battleships (dreadnoughts) were the most destructive weapon of the period and the treaty called for constraints upon them. The United States (the Alliance) had to work around this. The answer was a carrier-based fleet as opposed to a battleship centric one; and the battleship, as a result, became almost obsolete.

                  It's a testament to "human ingenuity," as Commander Shepard says. And humans have certainly developed their ways to work around the Treaty of Farixen. The dreadnought hasn't become quite so obsolete yet, but it soon will. With advances in stealth technology and such, the dreadnought is just becoming one damn big target.

                  Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                  And who likes my new sig? Kinda work in progress and I might tinker with it but I feel it's not bad for a first effort.
                  Not bad. But truthfully, I would probably ditch "the Reapers will return" part.

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                    #69
                    Originally posted by Oranos View Post


                    Not bad. But truthfully, I would probably ditch "the Reapers will return" part.
                    Meh I kinda like it. More importantly everyone can stare at my fantastic new avatar

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                      #70
                      Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                      Meh I kinda like it. More importantly everyone can stare at my fantastic new avatar
                      I like the Avatar more than the Sig.
                      I do agree w/ Oranos, tho', maybe lose the 'reapers will return' line, and maybe 'spruce up' the rest of the text (so as to provide better contrast between the text and the pic). Otherwise, it's nice.

                      As for Dreadnoughts becoming obsolete: I hope not. I always liked large starships.
                      (esp. WH40k's 'cathedrals in space' ...tho' the largest ships in ME are relatively small compared to other sci-fi settings. I mean, a dread is 800m - 1km, whereas Star Wars' Imperial Star Destroyer is 1.6 km, and I think Moya from Farscape is around a kilometer long, too)
                      sigpic

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                        #71
                        Originally posted by gotthammer View Post
                        I like the Avatar more than the Sig.
                        I do agree w/ Oranos, tho', maybe lose the 'reapers will return' line, and maybe 'spruce up' the rest of the text (so as to provide better contrast between the text and the pic). Otherwise, it's nice.
                        Well it's work in progess, I'll spruce it up over the next few days. I really wanted one with the shot of the reapers actually heading towards the milky way but I can't find that screenshot at the moment.

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by gotthammer View Post
                          As for Dreadnoughts becoming obsolete: I hope not. I always liked large starships.
                          The fate of the dreadnought just seems to be too well tied with our battleships. I don't think you're going to get that lucky. If you look closely, the similarities are there. Whether that's the direction that the writers intended to take, I don't know.

                          But just name the battleships still in the United States Navy. I'll give you a hint. You won't get out of single digits.

                          It's zero. Which is, I think, where the dreadnought will end up.

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                            #73
                            I just finished Mass Effect 2 last week. I am interested to see how my decisions effect the story in the next installment. Did anyone else only get to save their game around 50 times? I had to archive my save files away and there's hundreds of them, so I can branch off at any point in the game and come out with new decisions. I did feel like there was less exploring. ME 1 felt like it had more space to move around in even with the DLC in number 2. I also got sick of scanning planets! Going to have to do an insane run sometime.

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                              #74
                              Originally posted by Oranos View Post
                              The fate of the dreadnought just seems to be too well tied with our battleships. I don't think you're going to get that lucky. If you look closely, the similarities are there. Whether that's the direction that the writers intended to take, I don't know.

                              But just name the battleships still in the United States Navy. I'll give you a hint. You won't get out of single digits.

                              It's zero. Which is, I think, where the dreadnought will end up.
                              Yup. I'm kinda aware of how modern navies are now, as well as the decline of the 'big gun ships'. I mean, even the last battleship used was partly a missile-launching platform. (it was the 1st Gulf War that the last one was used, right? Don't remember the name anymore)

                              Still, it ultimately depends on the way a setting goes.

                              One of my favourite space operas, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, uses battleship-like (no turrets, tho': all the guns fire straight forward, think Napoleonic-era warfare, but in space; they just have point-defense-like beam weapons for 'broadsides') vessels as flagships, but almost all the vessels there (except maybe the missile platforms), I think, are capable of carrying a fighter contingent (there are still dedicated carriers, tho', but w/ the engagement range being somewhere between 60 - 100 or more million kilometers, the guns are still the primary mode of engagement).

                              I was kinda hoping that ME's ships weren't 'too specialized', but it seems they are. Still, I wouldn't mind having a Dreadnought (provided it had it's own fighter/interceptor bays).
                              sigpic

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                                #75
                                Originally posted by gotthammer View Post
                                Yup. I'm kinda aware of how modern navies are now, as well as the decline of the 'big gun ships'. I mean, even the last battleship used was partly a missile-launching platform. (it was the 1st Gulf War that the last one was used, right? Don't remember the name anymore)
                                Wisconsin and Missouri were the last of their kind used. And were put off being decommissioned because of the 1st Gulf War.

                                Originally posted by gotthammer
                                Still, it ultimately depends on the way a setting goes.
                                With the smaller ships of the line becoming more and more powerful, it just feels that this is what's being set up. There's Thanix Cannons and stealth systems, for example--technologies that very well could make the dreadnought obsolete; you're essentially taking away the dreadnought's greatest advantages. The cost and upkeep of a dreadnought is going to be high, as is the crew size, which could be put to better use on a more effective carrier.

                                Originally posted by gotthammer
                                I was kinda hoping that ME's ships weren't 'too specialized', but it seems they are. Still, I wouldn't mind having a Dreadnought (provided it had it's own fighter/interceptor bays).
                                So you either want to build a carrier (from scratch) that fits this profile or you want to overhaul a dreadnought to make it an effective carrier? That'd cost a small fortune in credits.

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