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  1. #61
    Colonel s09119's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead View Post
    That's actually another problem with the ME universe. Humans have only had mass effect technology for 30 years and suddenly they're more powerful than races that have had ME tech for more than a thousand years.
    The Citadel fleet was torn to shreds during Sovereign's attack; our fleet is only the most powerful because we had the largest surviving force after the Battle of the Citadel and, now that we're less restrained by the treaty limiting non-Council races' vessels, we can unleash the full power of our industry to crank out as many craft as we need. The Council races pooled their resources at the Citadel in anticipation of Saren's assault, and it didn't go well for them. Is it any surprise they're still rebuilding?
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  2. #62
    Major Alan Wake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    I wish the Counsel didn't intervene in the First Contact War. I would have loved to have seen the Turrien fleet destroy the humans.


  3. #63
    Colonel Replicator Todd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    I'm playing through ME1 for about eighth time....its been a while since I played a video game! I don't mind being stuck at level 60.....I mop the floor with every enemy!

  4. #64
    Colonel Oranos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead View Post
    When I said that the Terminus Sector/Delphic Expanse was unexplored, I didn't mean it literally. Both places were explored but not by humans. Shepard may have had a map of the Sector but he had little idea about what he would find there, all he knew that it was a dangerous place full of pirates and mercs. It's the same thing with Enterprise and the Delphic Expanse, the Klingons and Vulcans had mapped the region. However, all the Enterprise really knew about the Expanse was that it was full of dangerous anomalies.
    Even though humans have numerous settlements in the Terminus Systems? That kind of throws a wrench in your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    It's the same thing when I said that the Council/Vulcans didn't help the hero. Both of them helped. The Vulcans gave humans tech and information, they even sent ships to help occasionally. However, the help they offered was relatively minor in regards to the plot. It's the same thing with the Council, they helped with the Salarian infiltration team and they put blockades around mass relays but their efforts did very little to stop Sovereign.
    Fair enough.

    But doesn't that have more to say about Sovereign than anything? That was pretty much, hands down, the most powerful dreadnought in the Battle of the Citadel. But if it wasn't for the 3rd Infiltration Regiment, Saren would have had an army of Krogan behind him and Shepard never would have had access to the Prothean Beacon. I'd say the STG did their part (and it was an important one). Of course, I may be a little biased. Kirrahe was freakin' awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    Dreadnoughts are the WMD's of the ME universe. They're powerful enough that the Council actually have a treaty to limit their numbers.
    The Treaty of Farixen, yes. Which is based on the Washington Naval Treaty. I know.

    Humanity coined several innovations to get around the treaty--carriers, for example.

    Of course, if dreadnoughts are the ultimate weapon, as you so claim, someone had better tell that to the Asari. I'm sure they'll be embarrassed that the Destiny Ascension (the most powerful dreadnought outside of the Reapers) was either a.) destroyed or b.) very nearly destroyed. By Geth Dropships. Which are classified as frigates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    What exactly does that have to do with the Geth's motivations for coming out of the Perseus Veil after 300 years and attacking a human colony for no reason? How much the Geth have changed in 300 years is a mystery. Their sudden aggressive actions are mysterious. What they hope to achieve through their attacks is a mystery. Why they're helping Saren is a mystery. Whether or not they built Sovereign is a mystery. Therefore, the Geth are a mysterious enemy.
    Their motives--though not necessarily their actions--are mysterious. Furthermore, we know more about the Geth (as a race) than the Xindi. What was even known about the Xindi before they attacked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    So did you know from the very beginning of the game where Saren got a huge 2 km long ship and why he suddenly decided to betray the Council, and attack Eden Prime, based on the fact that he was the best and most well known Spectre? No? Then doesn't the fact that he did something that is completely antithetical to what people think was his nature suggest that people didn't know him nearly as well as they think? Therefore, doesn't that make him a mystery?
    Saren is known to be absolutely brutal with an intense hatred of humanity, which stems from his brother's death in the First Contact War. This is speculated to be the reason for the attack on Eden Prime. "Revelation" confirms that Saren was planning to use Sovereign as an instrument for revenge. I'd say people knew him pretty well. But that's just me.

    Just because his motives become blurred doesn't make his original motives any less true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    Yes, because we've faced a crisis that could result in the total annihilation of all life on the planet before.
    It's still politics. When does it ever work like it should?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    My problem isn't that Cerberus is sweeping everything under the rug, my problem is how so many people are willing to accept their BS, especially Shepard.
    Shepard doesn't really have a choice. The Alliance and the Council can't officially take action in the Terminus Systems. Cerberus is the only powerhouse that has the money, means, and information to make Shepard's mission a success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    Sure, you have a few people distrusting Cerberus but given the fact that the Alliance and the Council considers it a terrorist organization, people should be trying to arrest you, not making idle threats.
    Shepard can be a Spectre at this point. Who's going to try to arrest you? Anybody gets in your way, deal with them. Spectres are above the law (and the only people you answer to are on the Council).

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    And Hamas builds schools, gyms, health care clinics, mosques, and day care centers, but it doesn't change the fact that they're a terrorist organization.
    Cerberus operates in this morally gray area. You've seen them at their worse, occasionally at their best, and even somewhere in between. Truth be told, Cerberus hasn't even really done anything that's worse than what the Council has done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    How much do you really know about the Turians and the Salarians aside from the Codices? The Codices are nice but the information they give pale in comparison to what you can learn from actual interactions.
    I'm just curious. How much did you actually talk to others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead
    The only speculation comes in the form of an e-mail from the Salarian scientist from the first game that you helped gather information on the Keepers. He speculated that the Keepers predate the Protheans, something that you already know.
    I must be out of my mind. Or I've been having some vivid dreams. Or something. But maybe someone here can confirm or deny. I seem to remember that someone--don't know who, don't know why--speculates that the Keepers may have been genetically repurposed (in the same fashion as the Collectors).
    Last edited by Oranos; February 25th, 2010 at 10:08 PM.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by s09119 View Post
    The Citadel fleet was torn to shreds during Sovereign's attack; our fleet is only the most powerful because we had the largest surviving force after the Battle of the Citadel and, now that we're less restrained by the treaty limiting non-Council races' vessels, we can unleash the full power of our industry to crank out as many craft as we need. The Council races pooled their resources at the Citadel in anticipation of Saren's assault, and it didn't go well for them. Is it any surprise they're still rebuilding?
    Just to add to that it's stated that humanity also cheats. The treaties on fleet strength specially state how many dreadnaughts each race can have, so humanity is building its limit, then goes and designs carriers to get round the limit as there's no mention of them. This thinking outside the box is one of the reasons why many of the other races are wary of humanity.

  6. #66
    Major gotthammer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Just to add to that it's stated that humanity also cheats. The treaties on fleet strength specially state how many dreadnaughts each race can have, so humanity is building its limit, then goes and designs carriers to get round the limit as there's no mention of them. This thinking outside the box is one of the reasons why many of the other races are wary of humanity.
    Hehehe. Well, ya can't blame humanity (or the other races for being wary ). Each race has to look out after it's own. Everyone can spout stuff like cooperation, but at the end of the day, each race still, for the most part, prioritizes their own.
    Funny thing about the Carriers, tho'.
    Kinda reminds me of the concept of 'pocket battleships'.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer View Post
    Hehehe. Well, ya can't blame humanity (or the other races for being wary ). Each race has to look out after it's own. Everyone can spout stuff like cooperation, but at the end of the day, each race still, for the most part, prioritizes their own.
    Funny thing about the Carriers, tho'.
    Kinda reminds me of the concept of 'pocket battleships'.
    Well I believe that the whole humanity getting round treaties by building carriers was deliberately modelled on behaviour of nations like Japan during the interwar period in the 20's and 30's. The naval treaties of the time only allowed them so many battleships so you can guess what they went and did.

    And who likes my new sig? Kinda work in progress and I might tinker with it but I feel it's not bad for a first effort.

  8. #68
    Colonel Oranos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Well I believe that the whole humanity getting round treaties by building carriers was deliberately modelled on behaviour of nations like Japan during the interwar period in the 20's and 30's. The naval treaties of the time only allowed them so many battleships so you can guess what they went and did.
    The Treaty of Farixen is way too similar to the Washington Naval Treaty to be a coincidence. Battleships (dreadnoughts) were the most destructive weapon of the period and the treaty called for constraints upon them. The United States (the Alliance) had to work around this. The answer was a carrier-based fleet as opposed to a battleship centric one; and the battleship, as a result, became almost obsolete.

    It's a testament to "human ingenuity," as Commander Shepard says. And humans have certainly developed their ways to work around the Treaty of Farixen. The dreadnought hasn't become quite so obsolete yet, but it soon will. With advances in stealth technology and such, the dreadnought is just becoming one damn big target.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    And who likes my new sig? Kinda work in progress and I might tinker with it but I feel it's not bad for a first effort.
    Not bad. But truthfully, I would probably ditch "the Reapers will return" part.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Oranos View Post


    Not bad. But truthfully, I would probably ditch "the Reapers will return" part.
    Meh I kinda like it. More importantly everyone can stare at my fantastic new avatar

  10. #70
    Major gotthammer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Meh I kinda like it. More importantly everyone can stare at my fantastic new avatar
    I like the Avatar more than the Sig.
    I do agree w/ Oranos, tho', maybe lose the 'reapers will return' line, and maybe 'spruce up' the rest of the text (so as to provide better contrast between the text and the pic). Otherwise, it's nice.

    As for Dreadnoughts becoming obsolete: I hope not. I always liked large starships.
    (esp. WH40k's 'cathedrals in space' ...tho' the largest ships in ME are relatively small compared to other sci-fi settings. I mean, a dread is 800m - 1km, whereas Star Wars' Imperial Star Destroyer is 1.6 km, and I think Moya from Farscape is around a kilometer long, too)

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer View Post
    I like the Avatar more than the Sig.
    I do agree w/ Oranos, tho', maybe lose the 'reapers will return' line, and maybe 'spruce up' the rest of the text (so as to provide better contrast between the text and the pic). Otherwise, it's nice.
    Well it's work in progess, I'll spruce it up over the next few days. I really wanted one with the shot of the reapers actually heading towards the milky way but I can't find that screenshot at the moment.

  12. #72
    Colonel Oranos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer View Post
    As for Dreadnoughts becoming obsolete: I hope not. I always liked large starships.
    The fate of the dreadnought just seems to be too well tied with our battleships. I don't think you're going to get that lucky. If you look closely, the similarities are there. Whether that's the direction that the writers intended to take, I don't know.

    But just name the battleships still in the United States Navy. I'll give you a hint. You won't get out of single digits.

    It's zero. Which is, I think, where the dreadnought will end up.

  13. #73
    Major Franklyn Blaze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    I just finished Mass Effect 2 last week. I am interested to see how my decisions effect the story in the next installment. Did anyone else only get to save their game around 50 times? I had to archive my save files away and there's hundreds of them, so I can branch off at any point in the game and come out with new decisions. I did feel like there was less exploring. ME 1 felt like it had more space to move around in even with the DLC in number 2. I also got sick of scanning planets! Going to have to do an insane run sometime.

  14. #74
    Major gotthammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oranos View Post
    The fate of the dreadnought just seems to be too well tied with our battleships. I don't think you're going to get that lucky. If you look closely, the similarities are there. Whether that's the direction that the writers intended to take, I don't know.

    But just name the battleships still in the United States Navy. I'll give you a hint. You won't get out of single digits.

    It's zero. Which is, I think, where the dreadnought will end up.
    Yup. I'm kinda aware of how modern navies are now, as well as the decline of the 'big gun ships'. I mean, even the last battleship used was partly a missile-launching platform. (it was the 1st Gulf War that the last one was used, right? Don't remember the name anymore)

    Still, it ultimately depends on the way a setting goes.

    One of my favourite space operas, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, uses battleship-like (no turrets, tho': all the guns fire straight forward, think Napoleonic-era warfare, but in space; they just have point-defense-like beam weapons for 'broadsides') vessels as flagships, but almost all the vessels there (except maybe the missile platforms), I think, are capable of carrying a fighter contingent (there are still dedicated carriers, tho', but w/ the engagement range being somewhere between 60 - 100 or more million kilometers, the guns are still the primary mode of engagement).

    I was kinda hoping that ME's ships weren't 'too specialized', but it seems they are. Still, I wouldn't mind having a Dreadnought (provided it had it's own fighter/interceptor bays).

  15. #75
    Colonel Oranos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer View Post
    Yup. I'm kinda aware of how modern navies are now, as well as the decline of the 'big gun ships'. I mean, even the last battleship used was partly a missile-launching platform. (it was the 1st Gulf War that the last one was used, right? Don't remember the name anymore)
    Wisconsin and Missouri were the last of their kind used. And were put off being decommissioned because of the 1st Gulf War.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer
    Still, it ultimately depends on the way a setting goes.
    With the smaller ships of the line becoming more and more powerful, it just feels that this is what's being set up. There's Thanix Cannons and stealth systems, for example--technologies that very well could make the dreadnought obsolete; you're essentially taking away the dreadnought's greatest advantages. The cost and upkeep of a dreadnought is going to be high, as is the crew size, which could be put to better use on a more effective carrier.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer
    I was kinda hoping that ME's ships weren't 'too specialized', but it seems they are. Still, I wouldn't mind having a Dreadnought (provided it had it's own fighter/interceptor bays).
    So you either want to build a carrier (from scratch) that fits this profile or you want to overhaul a dreadnought to make it an effective carrier? That'd cost a small fortune in credits.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oranos View Post

    With the smaller ships of the line becoming more and more powerful, it just feels that this is what's being set up. There's Thanix Cannons and stealth systems, for example--technologies that very well could make the dreadnought obsolete; you're essentially taking away the dreadnought's greatest advantages. The cost and upkeep of a dreadnought is going to be high, as is the crew size, which could be put to better use on a more effective carrier.
    Wasn't the primary purpose of the Dread to engage at range? And what's to keep everyone from updating/upgrading the existing ships? If, say, a Dread were to be given Thanix cannons (or equivalent) to counter relatively smaller, faster targets (and, since one can assume that it can supply power more than a Frigate, have a better rate of fire or something akin to that), AND still be able to engage at ranges smaller ships can't...wouldn't that still make it 'relevant'?

    So you either want to build a carrier (from scratch) that fits this profile or you want to overhaul a dreadnought to make it an effective carrier? That'd cost a small fortune in credits.
    Nope, not really a carrier, per se, just give the ships, of most classes (perhaps above Frigate), the ability to carry a small contingent (think SG's 304s) of fighters. As I said, one of my fav. space operas had fleets where most of the vessels, while being able to contribute to the battle at range, can contribute to the 'knife fights' w/ fighters and point-defense. The point, more or less being, for more 'versatile' ships.
    edit: of course, in the case of the space opera I'm referring to, most of the ships were around or in excess of 600m in length...so I guess they had lots of room to spare (more or less...since most of the ships' interior was probably taken up by the main weapons). Still, it allowed for some level of versatility. (never mind that the heavier engagements cost thousands of ships and millions of lives )

  17. #77
    Colonel Oranos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer View Post
    Wasn't the primary purpose of the Dread to engage at range? And what's to keep everyone from updating/upgrading the existing ships? If, say, a Dread were to be given Thanix cannons (or equivalent) to counter relatively smaller, faster targets (and, since one can assume that it can supply power more than a Frigate, have a better rate of fire or something akin to that), AND still be able to engage at ranges smaller ships can't...wouldn't that still make it 'relevant'?
    Stealth systems. Quite possibly the dreadnought's greatest advantage was its ability to nail you at long distances (and there was nothing you could do about it). But let's assume you could only be seen--the targeting computers could never get a lock. The dreadnought becomes a massive target; it can't hit you at range, and it'd even be difficult to hit you once you were in range.

    Thanix Cannons. With smaller ships, the problem was that they couldn't pack the same firepower that a dreadnought could. Now imagine that a cruiser or frigate could--and effectively destroy larger, "more powerful" ships. Keep in mind that Thanix Cannons are essentially a dreadnought-type weapon; the Turians engineered them from Sovereign's wreckage.

    Size. Dreadnoughts are large--this means a large crew. You have to pay them, maintain food for them--you're effectively having to run a city. If you lose the dreadnought, you're losing a lot of people. Futhermore, upkeep isn't cheap. Ensuring that the dreadnought is running smoothly costs a fair share of credits. When you bring the above factors in, your ship is just a target.

    These aren't the only problems, just the biggest. If these technologies become widely used--and you have to think that they will given their effectiveness--then what are you going to do with a dreadnought? When something else can do your job more effectively, and you can't even perform yours, you know you have problems.

    I do see a compromise of sorts, however. A "destroyer," if you will. It'd allow you to combine the best of frigates/cruisers and the dreadnought.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer
    Nope, not really a carrier, per se, just give the ships, of most classes (perhaps above Frigate), the ability to carry a small contingent (think SG's 304s) of fighters. As I said, one of my fav. space operas had fleets where most of the vessels, while being able to contribute to the battle at range, can contribute to the 'knife fights' w/ fighters and point-defense. The point, more or less being, for more 'versatile' ships.
    You want to retrofit the entire fleet (that's capable of it) to carry fighters? It still comes back to cost. It may not even be possible; we haven't seen one of our dreadnoughts, and it's going to depend on how it's designed.

  18. #78
    Major gotthammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oranos View Post
    Stealth systems. Quite possibly the dreadnought's greatest advantage was its ability to nail you at long distances (and there was nothing you could do about it). But let's assume you could only be seen--the targeting computers could never get a lock. The dreadnought becomes a massive target; it can't hit you at range, and it'd even be difficult to hit you once you were in range.
    Hehe. The space opera I watched had, I assume, a similar issue: missiles could be countered and I don't think weapon 'locks' work (assumption: equivalent level of ECM/ECCM/etc.)...so they volley fire. As for ME, well, it's the future, so what's to say optics aren't advanced enough to pick out ships at range (that's actually the bit I didn't get w/ the reasoning behind Normandy's 'stealth'...granted space is 'vast and wide', but couldn't there have been a scanning program made to identify ship-like visual patterns/designs/movement...esp. in a setting w/ AI? I recall a codex entry regarding visual ID, but I forget the gist)

    Thanix Cannons. With smaller ships, the problem was that they couldn't pack the same firepower that a dreadnought could. Now imagine that a cruiser or frigate could--and effectively destroy larger, "more powerful" ships. Keep in mind that Thanix Cannons are essentially a dreadnought-type weapon; the Turians engineered them from Sovereign's wreckage.
    Yup. With one Dread, you could probably field a wolfpack of Frigates. Thing is, again, how much more effective could a Thanix-type weapon be on a Dread than on a Frigate? Would range/RoF/damage potential improve? And assuming you could reproduce the upgrades on the SR-2 on a larger ship, wouldn't that mean better shielding and armor?

    Size. Dreadnoughts are large--this means a large crew. You have to pay them, maintain food for them--you're effectively having to run a city. If you lose the dreadnought, you're losing a lot of people. Futhermore, upkeep isn't cheap. Ensuring that the dreadnought is running smoothly costs a fair share of credits. When you bring the above factors in, your ship is just a target.
    But! But! It's a space opera!
    Big ships = epic looking space battles!
    Well, if they can't keep crew cheap...there's always the way that the SR-2 did it: EDI-style AI. Pfft at the anti-AI conventions.

    These aren't the only problems, just the biggest. If these technologies become widely used--and you have to think that they will given their effectiveness--then what are you going to do with a dreadnought? When something else can do your job more effectively, and you can't even perform yours, you know you have problems.

    I do see a compromise of sorts, however. A "destroyer," if you will. It'd allow you to combine the best of frigates/cruisers and the dreadnought.
    I did find 'dreadnought' a weird term for that class in-game, tho'. Maybe coz' it sounds 'cooler' than Battleship? Hehe, who knows, maybe that really is to hint at the class' eventual move toward being obsolete.

    You want to retrofit the entire fleet (that's capable of it) to carry fighters? It still comes back to cost. It may not even be possible; we haven't seen one of our dreadnoughts, and it's going to depend on how it's designed.
    Nah. Just throwing in my opinion that it would be nice if they were more versatile, tho' you do have a point in that I don't think the exact specs of a Dread (for any species, I think) has been laid out (and I've yet to finish both ME novels, so I wouldn't know if they had any)...so who knows, maybe they do have the capability to field a squadron or more.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer View Post
    Hehe. The space opera I watched had, I assume, a similar issue: missiles could be countered and I don't think weapon 'locks' work (assumption: equivalent level of ECM/ECCM/etc.)...so they volley fire. As for ME, well, it's the future, so what's to say optics aren't advanced enough to pick out ships at range (that's actually the bit I didn't get w/ the reasoning behind Normandy's 'stealth'...granted space is 'vast and wide', but couldn't there have been a scanning program made to identify ship-like visual patterns/designs/movement...esp. in a setting w/ AI? I recall a codex entry regarding visual ID, but I forget the gist)
    I don't remember exactly what the codex says about this either, so I can't help you there.

    As for countering Normandy's stealth systems, it's obviously possible. The Collectors proved that much. But it's an edge that none of the other races seem to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer
    Yup. With one Dread, you could probably field a wolfpack of Frigates. Thing is, again, how much more effective could a Thanix-type weapon be on a Dread than on a Frigate? Would range/RoF/damage potential improve? And assuming you could reproduce the upgrades on the SR-2 on a larger ship, wouldn't that mean better shielding and armor?
    Even a retired battleship today packs more punch and more armor than the cruisers, destroyers, and frigates. The point is that--even despite that edge--the other classes are deadly enough that it didn't matter. Thanix Cannons are going to make the other classes that deadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer
    But! But! It's a space opera!
    Big ships = epic looking space battles!
    Well, if they can't keep crew cheap...there's always the way that the SR-2 did it: EDI-style AI. Pfft at the anti-AI conventions.
    The AI was outlawed for a reason. How many times has that come back to haunt people/aliens?

    EDI is different (for one reason and one reason only). She'd never turn on her one true love, Joker.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer
    I did find 'dreadnought' a weird term for that class in-game, tho'. Maybe coz' it sounds 'cooler' than Battleship? Hehe, who knows, maybe that really is to hint at the class' eventual move toward being obsolete.
    It probably stems from the H. M. S. Dreadnought--that is, the first modern battleship. I assume it caught on from there; most battleships then being referred to as dreadnoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotthammer
    Nah. Just throwing in my opinion that it would be nice if they were more versatile, tho' you do have a point in that I don't think the exact specs of a Dread (for any species, I think) has been laid out (and I've yet to finish both ME novels, so I wouldn't know if they had any)...so who knows, maybe they do have the capability to field a squadron or more.
    The only dreadnoughts we've seen are the Reapers. And the Asari's Destiny Ascension.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect universe discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Oranos View Post
    Even though humans have numerous settlements in the Terminus Systems? That kind of throws a wrench in your claim.



    Fair enough.

    But doesn't that have more to say about Sovereign than anything? That was pretty much, hands down, the most powerful dreadnought in the Battle of the Citadel. But if it wasn't for the 3rd Infiltration Regiment, Saren would have had an army of Krogan behind him and Shepard never would have had access to the Prothean Beacon. I'd say the STG did their part (and it was an important one). Of course, I may be a little biased. Kirrahe was freakin' awesome.



    The Treaty of Farixen, yes. Which is based on the Washington Naval Treaty. I know.

    Humanity coined several innovations to get around the treaty--carriers, for example.

    Of course, if dreadnoughts are the ultimate weapon, as you so claim, someone had better tell that to the Asari. I'm sure they'll be embarrassed that the Destiny Ascension (the most powerful dreadnought outside of the Reapers) was either a.) destroyed or b.) very nearly destroyed. By Geth Dropships. Which are classified as frigates.



    Their motives--though not necessarily their actions--are mysterious. Furthermore, we know more about the Geth (as a race) than the Xindi. What was even known about the Xindi before they attacked?



    Saren is known to be absolutely brutal with an intense hatred of humanity, which stems from his brother's death in the First Contact War. This is speculated to be the reason for the attack on Eden Prime. "Revelation" confirms that Saren was planning to use Sovereign as an instrument for revenge. I'd say people knew him pretty well. But that's just me.

    Just because his motives become blurred doesn't make his original motives any less true.



    It's still politics. When does it ever work like it should?



    Shepard doesn't really have a choice. The Alliance and the Council can't officially take action in the Terminus Systems. Cerberus is the only powerhouse that has the money, means, and information to make Shepard's mission a success.



    Shepard can be a Spectre at this point. Who's going to try to arrest you? Anybody gets in your way, deal with them. Spectres are above the law (and the only people you answer to are on the Council).



    Cerberus operates in this morally gray area. You've seen them at their worse, occasionally at their best, and even somewhere in between. Truth be told, Cerberus hasn't even really done anything that's worse than what the Council has done.



    I'm just curious. How much did you actually talk to others?



    I must be out of my mind. Or I've been having some vivid dreams. Or something. But maybe someone here can confirm or deny. I seem to remember that someone--don't know who, don't know why--speculates that the Keepers may have been genetically repurposed (in the same fashion as the Collectors).
    If you're going to strawmen all my arguments then why even bother responding to them at all?

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