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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Keep in mind that it's not just a question of total energy, but also power output. ZPM might have enough energy to establish a wormhole, but it is entirely possible that it can't output that power fast enough without blowing up, which we know is kind of bad.

  2. #22
    Lieutenant Colonel lordofseas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by K^2 View Post
    Keep in mind that it's not just a question of total energy, but also power output. ZPM might have enough energy to establish a wormhole, but it is entirely possible that it can't output that power fast enough without blowing up, which we know is kind of bad.
    Understatement of the year.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by legacy_of_hammond View Post
    no way one zpm could power up the gate for that. your forgetting, it took a heavily ionised planets' core to produce the amount of energy to power the gate, and even then the planet essentially ceased to exist because of the power consumption. besides the only 2 people who kno the adress are rush and eli, and rush is, for all intense and purposes, out of the picture for now. so i cant see anyone dialing destiny what so ever. what i want to know is, why the goauld where attacking them to begin with, i sense a plot line there somewhere. hmm
    We didn't need all the power the core could fasten for us. What i was stating is maybe the power requiriments are not that high. Of course we had to use the planet because it provided us with an Alternative to the very rare ZPM and with unlimited energy output, and i risk, probably way more that a ZPM could harness.
    It was not specified that the only ones that know the address where Eli and Rush. Tech Sargent Riley was in charge of gate duty and dialing procedures, he would also know it. Besides all the IOA would know it since they are in charge oversighting with is an open door for the LA spy to infiltrate and extract any data concerning our more secret facilityes and projects.

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman
    you realise what happened when we found Atlantis. advanced tech, ZPM's, ridiculously powerful city. obviously the LA wants some of that stuff too
    Thats why they where after the planet. They did not intended to destroy it, but to capture it.
    Last edited by Steelbox; February 10th, 2010 at 03:08 AM.
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  4. #24
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelbox View Post
    While watching Air i had the distinct impression that the critical/explosion status of the core was caused by shots of the Hataks on orbit, combined with the dialing procedures.
    Apparently that is the plot, although we didn't see a single orbital bolt landing anywhere close to the base. I have to question what the Ha'taks were shooting at, and if the power core was that close to the base in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelbox View Post
    I agree that the core going critical would release more energy. But would it be necessary to go critical? No. There where two trips programed, one to ascertain viability and gather data and another one to send a team. The Eli power rate x power extraction algoritm/equation was used so an exact quantity of energy was extracted without the core exploding.
    Now do we know how many energy is needed to be extracted from naquadria to explode/ go critical? How many was necessary to dial Destiny. For all we know it is possible that 1 or a couple ZPM would do the job however taxing for them.
    As others have said, if it was possible, they'd have done it a long time ago. Unless, of course, what prevents them from doing so is not the power, but the gate. If my memory is correct, only the stargate in Atlantis could dial directly to Earth. Other stargates not, and even the Pegasus one used for the bridge may have been modified.
    I'd rather go with that second explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jansky View Post
    Bottom line is, we don't know the yield of Naquadah at all (besides the vague line from the original film where Ra says that just the small amount of Naquadah he added to the bomb, which looked to be about a kilo to me, would increase the yield a hundred times),...
    On the contrary, we have lots of evidence to know the energy density of naqahdah. Check the second link in my sig.

    ... and the only way we can try to calculate the power of a ZPM is that old ZP-energy-from-a-teacup-of-space-would-boil-all-oceans-on-Earth analogy, stated by either Feynman or Planck, I don't remember which.
    The zero point energy density of one cubic centimeter of vacuum is just silly. Something like e92 J I think. That's one of the theories, but anyway, by plot, that would allow any writer to say that a very good ZPE system could tap a virtually undepletable source.

    The power of a ZPM is impressive, but another question is, can it be released over a short enough period to power the connection?
    The fastest drain we've seen was a controlled one, via the power grid of Atlantis, at a rate of 2%/s. That makes the minimum absolute drain clocked at fifty seconds.

    We know a ZPM can be overloaded, so likely there is a limit on the rate energy is drawn from it.
    I think the overload has much more to do with the ZPM having at least one internal buffer, and somehow this buffer being supercharged with energy. That, or some kind of internal spacetime fracture that would release exotic particles.
    We know that different overload thresholds can be defined. McKay was able to have the Asuran cityship's ZPMs to overload, yet it only vaporized the ship, and nothing else.
    That's a drop in an ocean, compared to what they could do, or even the calculated power figures.

    We only know that the ZPM has a final capacity, as it works much the same way as a battery (non-rechargeable). But you also can't extract all the energy stored in a 1,5V-battery at once, it will only give you those 1,5 Volts, and if you want too great a current from it, it'll likely just pop and spill out, or short-circuit. Happens often enough.

    So, really, I cannot say if a single ZPM can be used to dial Destiny. I'm of the opinion it cannot under normal circumstances. If, however, one built a capacitor that can deplete a ZPM on charging itself and then release all the energy at once, it could be possible. Problem is, even if the Ancients knew how to build such a thing, we most likely do not.
    The real question is how much the Icarus core was outputting.

    See that following Light, the IOA and SGC thought that by diving the ship into a main sequence star, they could channel enough energy directly into the stargate, in episode Earth.
    First of all, we know that Destiny has a scooping system that allows it to drain a vast amount of energy, much more than whatever it can take from the volumes of ionized gas the scooping nodes can ram into (Light).
    It literally has to extend nets in order to suck up net energy. Remember that the ship has to control its course into a star and out of its gravitational field, and has to have her shields withstand all the radiations and solar bursts while doing so.
    Besides, considering that by picking power from the star, they didn't extinguish any reaction in the star, it's absolutely clear that they ship only picks a very low fraction of the power a star generates.
    http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...um=901&pos=883
    The star in question could be considered like ours, for sake of simplicity.
    Luminosity is 3.846 e26 W, so we already know that the power they planned to channel through the ship's power grid would be inferior to that by a faaaar margin.
    Then the intensity in the photosphere is 2.009 e7 W/m², so obviously even if you worked out the eV per atom in a cubic meter in that region, the power levels wouldn't be... stellar. Than, again, pointing out the need to use an advanced syphon system.
    Problem is, by the visuals (which are going to be limited to artistic liberty and lack of scientific knowledge), we didn't exactly see intense streams of matter being forced into the scooping nodes, which abysmally black and cold matter being expelled.
    Why the ship needs to get into the star to do that, however, is most curious, and may suggest that contact with the denseer plasma of the photosphere is necessary, and contact with the lightweight plasma densities of the corona wouldn't be enough to do whatever the system needs to do.

    Anyway, on topic, the point is that the power level they though would be sufficient to dial back Earth was far below the max output of a ZPM.

    Notice, however, that the plan failed, and it may have been a completely desperate attempt to see if it would work, perhaps counting on some Destiny to unlock something special.
    Also consider that they may have not known what kind of star they'd be directed into. Although a red giant would have seriously made the plan completely pointless, if they had flew into a blue giant, the story would have been different: Although the plan would have been thousand times more dangerous, I don't think that coming close to such a star would have been a problem. After all, we know that a Ha'tak can sit close to a blue giant for ten hours without breaking a sweat.
    The problem would have been once inside. A blue giant has a power that can easily be several tens of thousand times superior to that of Sol. The danger would have been, then, with the Destiny maximum on flux. Could the power grid channel such energies? Could it even do that while having the shields holding on? Would the scooping nodes even survive such temperatures?
    Surely, if the eggheads on Earth counted on something between our star and blue giant, it would raise the likely "fraction of a star's power" figure they hoped to harvest during one of those stellar baths.

    Finally, we can already rule out certain low-ball power figures. Gigawatts are easily obtained even with crude naqahdah reactors. The portable Mark-Is can provide multiple dozens of gigawatts or more, with a potential of several dozens terajoules.
    We can also rule out terawatts because of the energy densities of larger amounts of naqahdah.
    The resistance of a Ha'tak's shields against a blue giant points to a power flux of several terawatts, with obviously a large reserve of energy.
    On a higher note, depending if you give stock into the maxium 200 megatons yield of a single bolt from SG-1 season 1, then a Ha'tak can channel that much energy, and therefore there's little reasons why the Tau'ri around season 10 and beyond couldn't achieve something similar.

    Therefore it would appear to be a safe bet to safely start playing with high petawatt power figures.

    Besides, I don't believe that's a problem of power, but more a question of a special stargate.

    After all, black holes can power stargates... although the process of how a stargate can even harness enough energy out of a black hole it orbits is a mystery, and probably another occasion to argue the existence of a (subspace) net that collects energy "invisibly", since gates orbiting black holes could only receive a silly low fraction of the energy a black hole outputs. Besides, a large black hole wouldn't make such a good power source. You'd rather have a short lived and small black hole.

    The Ori compressing a planet beyond what can be done to create a black hole "naturally" would probably mean that because of the non-natural method they used in Beachhead and later on, the black hole they created from the planet's mass and more would be very short lived, and therefore powerful.
    It still doesn't exempt the stargate from needing a system to collect large amounts of energy, and that's why we can only speculate on ethereal umbilicals or net that tap the black hole in a way or another, possibly as an extension of the ethereal power feed system that's used between a stargate and a DHD.

    Then again, the black hole allowing a connection between two galaxies, either close or distant, would prove that power is not the problem.

    In theory, a ZPM, and even a lesser power source, should allow the connection.


    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    MT's per gramme for Naquahdah. a solid naquahdah core would yield about 10^38 joules of energy. naquahdriah is several orders of magnitude more powerful.
    the core might not be entirely solid, but even at 1% naquahdah it still is an impressive 10^36 joules. ZPM's are somewhere in the 10^35 area.
    i think that there are two possibilities:

    1: yes, a ZPM can dial destiny. it depletes really fast though, and is nearly depleted within a minute.

    2: NO, at least two are needed, if not a whole battery of ZPM's.
    Or

    3: nothing to do with power.


    Notice that the asteroid would release the energy of a small nova that would have boiled off Earth's oceans, the energy is indeed closer to e33~35 J, the distance between the explosion and Earth, and the omnidirectional nature of the blast completing the picture since the planet would receive only a fraction of that energy, a fraction that would not be so high as to literally crack open the exposed side.


    The Core of Icarus was made of Naquadriah, an asteroid 140km wide with a core of Naquadah would become a mini nova when detonated so a planet core made of something even more explosive would be super nova level at least.
    How do we know that? Was is revealed? I have only seen the first part of SGU's 1st season. Limit spoilers please.
    Planets don't naturally contain enough energy to blow up. However a large amount of naqahda or naqahdria, that would have magically managed not to explode while located under the crust (!) would explain the destruction of the planet in Air.

    PS: that new BB interface is truly DISASTROUS. >:[

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Apparently that is the plot, although we didn't see a single orbital bolt landing anywhere close to the base. I have to question what the Ha'taks were shooting at, and if the power core was that close to the base in fact.
    The power core is the entire planet...it doesn't matter if it was near the base or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    As others have said, if it was possible, they'd have done it a long time ago.
    You spend two years searching the galaxy for the planet then you want to risk blowing it up for a shot at dialing the 9-chevron address? The original plan was to dial twice so they couldn't have risked it...i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Air the whole point of disabling incoming wormholes was to reduce the risk of blowing up the planet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    If my memory is correct, only the stargate in Atlantis could dial directly to Earth. Other stargates not, and even the Pegasus one used for the bridge may have been modified.
    This is because of the control crystal in Atlantis' DHD; Atlantis has even had two stargates since the Attero device blew the original one up...any Pegasus stargate hooked up to that crystal could dial Earth with enough power; it was the whole basis for McKay's plan to dial Earth from the fog planet in season 1 of Atlantis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Notice, however, that the plan failed, and it may have been a completely desperate attempt to see if it would work, perhaps counting on some Destiny to unlock something special.
    The plan failed because Destiny was damaged so it couldn't properly channel all that energy into the stargate...my understanding of the episode was that the ship is capable of powering the stargate to dial the 9-chevron address while it is in a star but that because of all the damage to the ship, attempting to channel that much power into the stargate would blow up the ship...didn't we even see a power conduit explode while Rush was doing tests to see whether the ship could handle that much power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Besides, I don't believe that's a problem of power, but more a question of a special stargate.
    Actually, Mallozzi confirmed that dialing the 9-chevron is a power issue and not anything special with any specific stargate...power is also the reason that Destiny stargate have such a limited range...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    The Ori compressing a planet beyond what can be done to create a black hole "naturally" would probably mean that because of the non-natural method they used in Beachhead and later on, the black hole they created from the planet's mass and more would be very short lived, and therefore powerful.
    i don't understand what you mean by "short lived" since black holes don't die unless they're consumed by a larger black hole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    3: nothing to do with power.
    As far as the people writing the show are concerned, it has everything to do with power...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    How do we know that? Was is revealed? I have only seen the first part of SGU's 1st season. Limit spoilers please.
    Planets don't naturally contain enough energy to blow up. However a large amount of naqahda or naqahdria, that would have magically managed not to explode while located under the crust (!) would explain the destruction of the planet in Air.
    Yes it was revealed...I could have sworn it was mentioned in Air (and/or the episode where Rush lies about finding another Icarus planet on Destiny's path)...but if not, I think it was in the Danial Jackson tutorial on the stargates...

  6. #26
    First Lieutenant Mike.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    I see that several things were mentioned in this thread: a ZPM cam blow up a solar system, a naquadah asteroid (like the one in Fail Safe) goes nova. And a ZPM can't power a connection to the Destiny but the Icarus base could. Since the Icarus planet's core was made of naquadah/naquadria it means that either: a) the explosion was not portrayed correctly - it should have been much more massive or b) only a small part of the fissionable material went critical. a) seems most likely because of fx budget constrains and since the gate could harness all of the planet's power it wouldn't make sense that the reaction would stall so quickly.

    So - naquadah asteroid < (but close to) a ZPM < naquadah planet

    Did I get this right ?

    @blowing up the Asurans' city: I distinctly remember that the city was blown up because of the influx of power, not because the ZPMs themselves blew up.
    Last edited by Mike.; February 11th, 2010 at 11:28 PM.

  7. #27
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    naquahdriah planet.

    and the core of the planet is much bigger than a stupid asteroid

  8. #28
    First Lieutenant Mike.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Yeah. So the planet explosion in Air II wasn't accurate. That's what's causing the confusion.

  9. #29
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinerin View Post
    The power core is the entire planet...it doesn't matter if it was near the base or not...
    What's the source of that info?

    You spend two years searching the galaxy for the planet then you want to risk blowing it up for a shot at dialing the 9-chevron address? The original plan was to dial twice so they couldn't have risked it...i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Air the whole point of disabling incoming wormholes was to reduce the risk of blowing up the planet...
    There's clearly something that's been going on that I've missed. Is there any canon information that suggests that tapping power for too long to dial that far is what caused the system to overload and begin an unstable chain reaction?

    This is because of the control crystal in Atlantis' DHD; Atlantis has even had two stargates since the Attero device blew the original one up...any Pegasus stargate hooked up to that crystal could dial Earth with enough power; it was the whole basis for McKay's plan to dial Earth from the fog planet in season 1 of Atlantis...
    If that's so, no problem. I've never been 100% sure about the Earth dialing restriction thing.

    The plan failed because Destiny was damaged so it couldn't properly channel all that energy into the stargate...my understanding of the episode was that the ship is capable of powering the stargate to dial the 9-chevron address while it is in a star but that because of all the damage to the ship, attempting to channel that much power into the stargate would blow up the ship...didn't we even see a power conduit explode while Rush was doing tests to see whether the ship could handle that much power?
    The piddly explosion akin to a couple megajoules?

    Still doesn't make sense. The ship could only tap a fraction of the power of a star. Clearly this caps any power source we've known thus far. We know for fact now that a ZPM's maximum power output is only a fraction of a star.
    Unless of course the crew couldn't know what kind of star they were heading for, and hoped for a blue giant.
    But still, if we go down that route, running at 2%/s over 50 seconds wouldn't be enough to even turn an entire continent into a smoking crater, or boil off a planet's oceans, since even a fraction of a blue giant's power wouldn't be enough, over 50 seconds, to muster something in the region of e33 J and more.

    Unless the Destiny doesn't sundive to absorb power, but to stock massive amounts of hydrogen, possibly stocked in some ancestor to the ZPM, that is, a "pocket universe" device (hammer bag), or one that uses mass lightening. It could therefore pile up hundreds of millions if not many billions of tonnes of hydrogen, or perhaps even more, who knows.

    Still, it will always comes very short of what we thought a ZPM could output. Eventually it would mean that both systems meet somewhere in the petawatt or exawatt range*. Thus any super explosion of a ZPM is not proper energy by largely due to those physics raping particles, and we would suggest, on the other hand, that the Destiny is capable of consuming most of its reserves within a few hours, enough to cover two 38 minutes trips.

    * Values superior to exawatts could be reasonable if the guys counted on a blue giant, imho. We still have the Tria that expands the equivalent of teratons of energy just to decelerate, when you count relativity and time dilation, but perhaps there's an explanation down the road, one that involves mass lightening. Still, even if an Aurora's mass could be reduced by a factor of, say, a couple thousands, you'd still be looking at a power production of the order of many exawatts anyway.

    Actually, Mallozzi confirmed that dialing the 9-chevron is a power issue and not anything special with any specific stargate...power is also the reason that Destiny stargate have such a limited range...
    A few lightning bolts could power a stargate to a trip over several light years, for a short period. Destiny is capable of handling at the very least terawatts of power, evidence by those sun divings.
    I guess the power conduits are really screwed up somewhere then. The weapons themselves may have been operating at a level below what they could normally reach.

    i don't understand what you mean by "short lived" since black holes don't die unless they're consumed by a larger black hole...
    Black holes are considered to "evaporate". The heavier it is, the longer it remains. One that masses ~2.3 e5 kg lasts one second.

    Yes it was revealed...I could have sworn it was mentioned in Air (and/or the episode where Rush lies about finding another Icarus planet on Destiny's path)...but if not, I think it was in the Danial Jackson tutorial on the stargates...
    Without evidence I can't really accept it.
    It would be much better if you could tell where the info comes from.

  10. #30
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
    I see that several things were mentioned in this thread: a ZPM cam blow up a solar system, a naquadah asteroid (like the one in Fail Safe) goes nova. And a ZPM can't power a connection to the Destiny but the Icarus base could. Since the Icarus planet's core was made of naquadah/naquadria it means that either: a) the explosion was not portrayed correctly - it should have been much more massive or b) only a small part of the fissionable material went critical. a) seems most likely because of fx budget constrains and since the gate could harness all of the planet's power it wouldn't make sense that the reaction would stall so quickly.

    So - naquadah asteroid < (but close to) a ZPM < naquadah planet

    Did I get this right ?
    It's not because a ball of something has x as a total energy density that when used as a power source, it will properly exploit that potential energy over a given time.
    If that planet had a special core, and I'd really like to know where the frak that info comes from, the power production would still be limited to whatever power plant the Alterans built there.
    Perhaps the Alterans used the whole planet as a reactor, using gravity to constrain the reaction, but I find that hard to believe because they'd have to prevent the overall mass of naqahdah or naqahdria from blowing up and that would mean creating an isolated volume within the volume. A hassle, in other words.
    It could, on the contrary, picture a sort of power plant that would reach deep into the magma and suck up naqahdah to bring it up into a reaction chamber somewhere up in the crust, but still using the mass of the crust above as a plus to maintain pressure, along other force fields and super alloys for the chamber's shell.
    There could be several chambers like that as well.

    Now, what did cause the chain reaction? Tapping too much power, or the Ha'taks firing somewhere at the planet?
    If it's naqahdria, then somehow tapping too much power is known to cause an overload. We've seen a naqahdria reactor reach overload because too much energy was taken from it at once, and that happen twice in fact, in Redemption and Memento, both in SG-1's 6th season.
    If it's the second option, then the Ha'taks' weapons managed to damage the power plant. I can't picture those weapons posing any threat to the planet itself.

    @blowing up the Asurans' city: I distinctly remember that the city was blown up because of the influx of power, not because the ZPMs themselves blew up.
    Nope, McKay definitely overloaded the ZPMs themselves.
    Yes, the city started to blow in some parts as McKay and co were escaping, but the big splosion is the ZPMs blowing up.

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    naquahdriah planet.
    and the core of the planet is much bigger than a stupid asteroid
    I have hard times believing it's naqahdria. This material is rather short lived, and it would have returned to naqahdah before the era of the homo erectus on Earth.
    Naqahdah would make much more sense in all possible ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
    Yeah. So the planet explosion in Air II wasn't accurate. That's what's causing the confusion.
    Not necessarily. You just need certain concentrations of isotope and an assured purity to obtain enough critical mass for certain types of reactions to sustain themselves.
    The increase of temperature and pressure helps getting closer to other favourable parameters which themselves also allow chain reactions.

    There might have been a large mass of naqahdah in the planet, but its density so low, so diluted, that it was difficult to kickstart a chain reaction.

    However, I can picture the power plant, while harnessing large quantities of purified naqahdah from the core, overloading and exploding, thus triggering a chain reaction that would spread all over the core. The energy piling up, it would only be a question of time before the threshold for a massive explosion might be crossed. Not all of naqahdah may react, but a large amount would nonetheless, enough to generate a level of energy a couple of orders of magnitude above n e32 J, enough to overcome gravitational binding and even scatter a planetary mass that violently.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    *snip*
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    *snip*
    Thats a very well thought argument.

    Also on the ZPM being able to power a gate to the Destiny. I want to make a reference on some calculations on ZPM energy on another forum, a thread which you made.

    From it the ZPM has enough energy from solar system/planet busting to holding the pressure of ocean floor for 3.333 years to not being able to lift a 4km diameter city from the planet.

    From this I presume that the ZPM will not be a consequence in SGU. If they ever find one by rule of plot will be severely depleted, loose it, need it for something else(its wasteful to save less than a hundred people), or the ZPM maximum energy will hit a new low in the show.

  12. #32
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    actually if a high energy event created a naquahdriah asteroid (probably by exotic radiation), and that asteroid crashed on Icarus, then transmuted the naquahdah into naquahdriah, it's possible.


    anyway, we know naquahdriah decays back into naquahdah over the course of a few thousands years. so if the asteroid hit a few millenia ago, it's plausible.

    also, the rarity is BECAUSE of naquahdriah

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    What's the source of that info?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Without evidence I can't really accept it.
    It would be much better if you could tell where the info comes from.
    wow, I narrowed it down to one of either two episodes and/or a webisobe...how about you watch the show before claiming that something wasn't mentioned in the show...

    from Air, Part 1:
    JACKSON: ... Icarus Base was established on a planet discovered two years ago to have a uniquely powerful core. The entire purpose of the project is to hopefully one day dial the nine chevron address found in the Ancient database.
    Also, naquadriah is specifically mentioned in the full webisode video...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    There's clearly something that's been going that I've missed. Is there any canon information that suggests that tapping power for too long to dial that far is what caused the system to overload and begin an unstable chain reaction?
    It was stated in Air that all the explosions and what not going on outside the base it was triggered the chain reaction...Rush just took advantage of the situation to dial Destiny because he knew he would never get another chance (at least not from that planet)...

    from Air, Part 1:
    RILEY: Doctor Rush? I'm reading a dangerous energy spike in the core.
    .....
    RUSH: If this bombardment continues, the radioactive core's gonna go critical.
    and this was before they even started dialing the gate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    The piddly explosion akin to a couple megajoules?
    It was a simple TEST; nowhere near the full amount of power to dial the address...if such a small amount of power running through the conduits would cause an explosion, what do you think the power to dial the 9-chevron address would do to the conduits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    A few lightning bolts could power a stargate to a trip over several light years, for a short period. Destiny is capable of handling at the very least terawatts of power, evidence by those sun divings.
    I guess the power conduits are really screwed up somewhere then. The weapons themselves may have been operating at a level below what they could normally reach.
    Remember that the lightning bolts powered the stargate to dial a wormhole to one of the closest planets in the galaxy to Earth and only maintained the wormhole for a few minutes...for all we know,the Destiny's range is even farther than that and supposedly can maintain the wormhole for the full duration...
    My theory is that the limited range on the Destiny's stargate is a safety feature to ensure that anyone who dials out can dial back using the kino remote...we've yet to obtain the Destiny's master code so we just might not have the ability to shut that feature off, not like we would want to since the Destiny crew has no portable power sources...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    I have hard times believing it's naqahdria. This material is rather short lived, and it would have returned to naqahdah before the era of the homo erectus on Earth.
    Naqahdah would make much more sense in all possible ways.
    Naquadriah is specifically mentioned by Daniel Jackson in his video on the stargate...also, I think Rush mentions naquadriah in Life when he's lying about finding another Icarus planet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Not necessarily. You just need certain concentrations of isotope and an assured purity to obtain enough critical mass for certain types of reactions to sustain themselves.
    The increase of temperature and pressure helps getting closer to other favourable parameters which themselves also allow chain reactions.
    I agree with this in that the planet blew up but the naquadriah didn't necessarily obtain critical mass...It is mentioned in the extended pilot, that one of the most costly aspects of Icarus Base is cooling the facility because the naquadriah in the core exerts so much pressure on the planet's crust...all the weapon blasts hitting the surface could have put enough strain on the surface that it couldn't contain the pressure from the naquadriah so eventually the naquadriah broke the entire planet's crust and no more Icarus planet....

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    actually if a high energy event created a naquahdriah asteroid (probably by exotic radiation), and that asteroid crashed on Icarus, then transmuted the naquahdah into naquahdriah, it's possible.
    Wow, you just like to use the term "exotic radiation" to show how clueless you are in physics don't you? anyways one possible process that could convert naquadah into naquadriah is discussed in an SG-1 episode in a conversation between Carter, Jonas and the Goauld spy...i'm too lazy to look it up but i believe it had something to do with heavier subatomic particles...

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    anyway, we know naquahdriah decays back into naquahdah over the course of a few thousands years. so if the asteroid hit a few millenia ago, it's plausible.
    Well we know that there is a process that converts naquadah into naquadriah...as long as the process was still active, it's possible that the naquadriah that decayed into naquadah could have been reconverted back into naquadriah...this could potentially be maintained until the conversion process stops...

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    also, the rarity is BECAUSE of naquahdriah
    this is true...
    Last edited by tinerin; February 12th, 2010 at 01:03 PM.

  14. #34
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    or maybe it's a power issue, or the gates are thin seeded, or the correlative update system isn't included

  15. #35
    Probie Astrum porta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Well think about it, the ancients must have had some convienent way of dialing the 9th chevron and their best source of power was their zpms'. One naquedah reactor = within one galaxy, one zpm = within two galaxies, x = more than 9 galaxies away i think rush said? So 9 zpms!

  16. #36
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    WE DO NOT KNOW THE EXACT DISTANCE.


    also, if the ancients had actually dialled it, it would've been billions of lightyears closer!

    say it's a billion lightyears away. thats 1000 million LY's. approx. 10 million years ago, the ancients left, so that's approx. 100 lightyears per year. which isn't a lot. if we go by the lower figure, 5 million lightyears, Destiny still travels only 200 lightyears per year. more logical, is 10 or 100 billion lightyears, giving it a speed of 1000 resp. 10 000 LY per year *we can cross that distance in hours to a day*

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    The universe itself is less than 100 billion light years across, so we are definitely no talking anything close to 100 billion. I suppose, it could be over 10 billions, but I think Rush would have said something to this effect, so we are looking for something in 5-10 billion light years range.

    This is still at least 3 orders of magnitude on top of trip to Pegasus DIG, so there is no reason to suspect that any sane number of ZPMs could handle it.

  18. #38
    Chief Master Sergeant deltaCain054's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Please don't complain if any of this has been said before, I don't feel like reading through a few pages to pointless techno babel to read something that should be simple.
    No 1 ZPM could not power a wormhole to Destiny, but it might be feasible to dial it with 5 or more ZPMs, at least for a few micro-seconds.
    Icarus base was destroyed because weapons fire caused the naquahdriah to destabilize, causing extreme energy outputs, causing the entire core to destabilize and explode. It had nothing to do with dialing Destiny (it is possible that dialing Destiny drained a lot of power from the core, delaying the explosion, though this is completely theoretical). As for why flying through the sun and dialing the gate on Destiny didn't work, Dr. Rush may have also sabotaged the attempt (it was sort of hinted).

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by deltaCain054 View Post
    *snip*
    This is my opinion so I must be right.


    People stop with all the guessing. You guys don't know how much power it takes to dial the Destiny anymore than I do.

    The only thing I'm certain it will have the energy the plot requires, if it appears.

  20. #40
    First Lieutenant Mike.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mirdin1992 View Post
    This is my opinion so I must be right.


    People stop with all the guessing. You guys don't know how much power it takes to dial the Destiny anymore than I do.

    The only thing I'm certain it will have the energy the plot requires, if it appears.

    Hmm, ok I accept the challenge . Let me break down deltaCain's post to the individual ideas so that I can prove that he's right.

    Quote Originally Posted by deltaCain054 View Post
    No 1 ZPM could not power a wormhole to Destiny,
    Correct. In Daniel's training video it is stated that the the "purpose of the project [Icarus] was to one day dial the nine chevron address found in the Ancient database". This proves that the single or multiple ZPMs Atlantis obtained over the years was not sufficient or they would have used them.

    Quote Originally Posted by deltaCain054 View Post
    but it might be feasible to dial it with 5 or more ZPMs, at least for a few micro-seconds.
    Correct. Each ZPM has an enormous amount of power and thanks to simple logic we can conclude that if one is not enough more can be used to double/triple/quadruple/.../... the available power until it becomes sufficient. The real figure might prove to be impractical, but as an exercise in thought it is sound. The micro-second notion is from SGA - what Mckay did to send some messages through the Stargate from Atlantis, powered just by NQ reactors.

    Quote Originally Posted by deltaCain054 View Post
    Icarus base was destroyed because weapons fire caused the naquahdriah to destabilize, causing extreme energy outputs, causing the entire core to destabilize and explode. It had nothing to do with dialing Destiny (it is possible that dialing Destiny drained a lot of power from the core, delaying the explosion, though this is completely theoretical).
    Correct again. Here's the relevant transcript from Air part one as proof:

    FLASHBACK. ICARUS BASE. The Lucian troop transport and its glider escort fly down towards the base. The troops on the platforms begin to fire at them as they come into range. The gliders return fire. Inside the base, people look up in concern at the nearby impacts. At a computer in the Gateroom, Sergeant Riley calls out.

    RILEY: Doctor Rush? I'm reading a dangerous energy spike in the core.

    RUSH: Eli, Eli. I need your help.

    WALLACE: With what?

    RUSH: The ninth chevron.

    WALLACE: What?! We need to get the hell out of here!

    RUSH: Look, it took us two years to find this site. The properties are unique. This may be our last chance.

    (The base vibrates under a nearby explosion.)

    RUSH: If this bombardment continues, the radioactive core's gonna go critical.

    WALLACE: Y-you mean the planet –- it's gonna explode?

    RUSH: Yes.
    Next:
    Quote Originally Posted by deltaCain054 View Post
    As for why flying through the sun and dialing the gate on Destiny didn't work, Dr. Rush may have also sabotaged the attempt (it was sort of hinted).
    Again, correct. The episode made the point of casting doubt on Rush, in several scenes - when Rush stated that he rigged the alarms:

    Earth transcript:
    WRAY: You staged the whole thing

    JOHANSEN: So all of this was just to get rid of Telford?

    RUSH: Had to be done.

    GREER: So you're sayin' that the ship is not gonna explode?

    RUSH: Oh no, we would most definitely all be dead had I not put certain limits in place. I also arranged for the alarms and warnings to go off regardless - a bit of theatre. Always nice.
    And then again at the end when Young asked Eli to verify Rush's data:

    YOUNG: I need you to do something for me.

    WALLACE (swinging around on his chair to face him): Sure thing.

    YOUNG: Go over the data collected as they tried to dial the Gate.

    WALLACE: I have already. There's a lot I don't understand.

    YOUNG: Well, then, you need to learn - as fast as you can, and you talk to whoever you have to.

    WALLACE: D'you think Rush is hiding something?

    YOUNG: That's what I want you to tell me.

    (Perhaps a little unwillingly, Eli nods. Young turns and leaves the room and Eli swings back around to the console and continues the playback of the earlier recording.)
    Whether Rush actually did it will be revealed in a later episode, but it certainly was "hinted".

    Challenge met!

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